How would you alter the Ultramarines chapter tactic

[Subtleknife]

Now that the supplements are all out we can see the different ways GW have implemented the Chapter Tactics. It got me thinking how would I alter the Ultramarine one if I could.

 

For me I would drop the plus one leadership. I cant really remember when it has been particularly useful to me. Instead I would take the adept of the codex warlord trait and put it into into the Ultramarine Chapter tactic. I would then remove the cap for how many CP you can recover in your own turn if your army is purely all Ultramarines. I think this would play to the Ultramarines fluff quite nicely.

 

What do people think, too powerful, fluffy or just right? What would you do, if anything at all to change the tactic?

Edited January 15, 2020 by Subtleknife

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

What if they lost chapter tactics and just got buffs for extra movement ?

[Subtleknife]

Yeah however you would do it. I am interested to hear what people would do. Edited January 16, 2020 by Subtleknife

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Personally I wouldn’t do anything. Seems like they always want to come up with something new but sometimes draw from older editions.

[Kallas]

The +1Ld is definitely an odd and mostly useless ability. I'm not sure how to add anything useful to it, without stacking up too much other stuff, maybe give it something like: "Units with this Chapter Tactic can choose, when they Fall Back, to either shoot in the following Shooting phase, or charge in the following Charge phase." Gives them flexibility, and removes the -1 to hit when Falling Back, but isn't necessarily as good as, say, the White Scars one but much more flexible (Fall Back and shoot or charge, vs Advance/Fall Back and charge, plus Biker bonus).

 

*shrug* It's a solid Chapter Tactic, in my opinion, so I don't think it actually needs changing to be honest.

[Subtleknife]

It's interesting to see a different point of view. I see the Ultras chapter tactic as being very weak imo. The +1 leadership i agree is rarely used. As for the falling back, it is only really useful for armies that assault you. Maybe my viewpoint is off as I only play primaris atm so all my vehicles have fly and I predominantly play against tau. I just feel we were sold short by GW on this one since it is a very very situational chapter tactic which could be better without making Ultras OP.

[Kallas]

Well, my point of view may be slightly skewed in that I'm running lists with three Land Raiders (Helios variant). Without the UM Chapter Tactic they're not viable at all, as anything can rub up against it and stop 275pts from shooting.

 

With UM they can't unless they wrap it (which is pretty difficult), and I can actually use them fairly aggressively if need be, as they can potentially charge weak things to tie them up and I don't have to worry (too much) about them still being in combat as I can just Fall Back and still shoot. With Chapter Master rerolls and/or Calm Under Fire, it's not a significant reduction in accuracy either.

[emperorpants]

The Ultra's chapter tactic is hard to gauge sometimes.  I think it is decent in a deceptive way.  What I mean is, you often feel like it doesn't do anything as you don't get a chance to really use it, but that is sometimes due to people not attempting to tie you up because they know they can't.  It is useful as a deterent to being tied up as some players will just drop that tactic all together when they see they are playing ultras, and will charge you just to kill you.  Just the fact that the tactic exists changes people's game plans, even if it isn't used outright that much, makes it pretty decent.  Also, you never have to worry about a small unit making that critical charge to stop your important shooting units for a turn when it really counts.  

 

As for how it'd change it, I'd probably just remove the -1 to hit when falling back.  Perhaps drop the leadership bonus (which is totally useless, just like the strat for +1 to leadership, what the heck gw?) and maybe add that +3 inch to ranged weapons ability from the core book.  I think being able to shoot after falling back with no penalty and having an extra 3 inches in range across the board would be a good chapter tactic without being too powerful.

Edited January 16, 2020 by emperorpants

[Ishagu]

I actually think the Chapter Tactic is very good. My only issue with the Ultras are the somewhat vanilla Stratagems and psychic powers that pale in comparison to those other Chapters can access. We can't run and charge, or teleport units using psychic powers, or make it so units can't be targeted, etc Edited January 16, 2020 by Ishagu

[Subtleknife]

I do like the plus 3 inch idea in exchange for dropping the leadership bit.

 

@Ishagu: agreed about the strats and psychic powers. Do you think the plus 1 leadership is useful as part of the trait too?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I run tiggy and a bog Libby. Tiggy casts old school and his mate buffs him with channeling. They can smitebomb right up there with kSons. Plus a free cp every turn. Null Zone and MoH are pretty much automatic. It’s not like we need guide or doom.

Also we are basically fly across our entire army - this is an Achilles heel for IH.

[Ishagu]

Null Zone and MoH are pretty good, yeah - but they aren't Ultramarine powers. The unique discipline is definitely lacking.

 

As for the +1 leadership, I 100% think it should be kept. It does come into play, and there psychic powers and abilities it protects us from.

[Kallas]

Null Zone and MoH are pretty good, yeah - but they aren't Ultramarine powers. The unique discipline is definitely lacking.

 

As for the +1 leadership, I 100% think it should be kept. It does come into play, and there psychic powers and abilities it protects us from.

 

The Indomitus Discipline is definitely lacking. Having run with it for a while, the only power I actually value now is Psychic Shackles. Sometimes Empyric Channeling is useful, but it depends on if you're running a second Librarian with other, more useful powers; otherwise, it's pointless. Scryer's Gaze at WC7 is just too unreliable and I've gotten it off maybe a handful of times total in about a dozen games.

 

As far as the +1 Ld is concerned, it is useful occasionally, but it's extremely rare for it to actually matter.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well then maybe play eldar or kSons. Seriously. It is more important for us to have psychic defense.

[Kallas]

Well then maybe play eldar or kSons.

 

What a worthless comment.

 

Seriously. It is more important for us to have psychic defense.

 

Sure, psychic defence is important, but the disciplines that each faction has should be useful, if not necessarily as powerful as the most psychic factions. The Librarius Discipline is pretty lame, with two, maybe three, useful powers with most of them being pretty situational (eg, Psychic Fortress) or tame (eg, Might of Heroes: it's pretty much the best Librarius power and it's still not particularly incredible except on a few models and only and specific times). The Indomitus Discipline is even more narrow in focus (well, saying it has focus is being generous) and the capabilities gained from it are extremely tame bare Psychic Shackles.

 

Point being, if something isn't even capable of being useful, why bother including it? There are plenty of rules - and hell, plenty of units - where this is the case; and in that case, they should be looked at, not just swept under the rug.

 

Also, besides Psychic Fortress, what additional psychic defence does the Librarius or Indomitus Discipline bring to the table? As far as I'm aware, it's none.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is not worthless SM pskyers except for Tiggy and GK will never be on that level. Tiggy is just amazing. I wish more people here focus on what we can do with what we have. That is going to bare more fruit. I see several sub forums where the main content is complaints when really this is the best SM have ever been. Seriously I’m not a snow flake. Edited January 17, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Kallas]

Is not worthless SM pskyers except for Tiggy and GK will never be on that level. Tiggy is just amazing.

 

Sure, Tigurius is good, but he still has mostly crap powers to work with. I'm not saying that Marine Psykers should be Ahriman, but they should have useful tools. There's little point bringing a blunt, rusty blade (Librarian) when you can bring a sharp, well maintained one (Captains, Lieutenants, most other units...)

 

Currently a Librarian's main worth is in Denying enemy powers, and that's because they have crap powers to cast. I like my Librarians, but they're bad in melee, have nothing worth doing in the shooting phase, and their psychic powers are tame as all hell. I'd rather have solid powers that I can get use out of (even if they're not OMGgolly geeBBQ good) than have unreliable mediocre powers that are hard to get off/get worth from (eg, Null Zone - game changing...if you can get it to go off, and then have your Librarian in position to actually strip an enemy of their invuln with its measly 6" range).

 

I wish more people here focus on what we can do with what we have. That is going to bare more fruit. I see several sub forums where the main content is complaints when really this is the best SM have ever been. Seriously I’m not a snow flake.

 

Like what?

A: "How can I get good use out of Psychic Fortress?"

B: "Hope your opponent tries to Smite that specific unit."

 

A: "Ok, and how do I get good use out of Storm of the Emperor's Wrath?"

B: "Target a big unit and hope you roll above average."

 

Some stuff just isn't good, and there isn't always a way to make it work. Like take Precognition for example: give the casting Librarian a 5+ invulnerable (eh, ok) and -1 to be hit (alright, ok). But...why bother? A Librarian is not a good model for melee for shooting, and by using Precognition they're actually cashing out their offensive capability for defensive (and they already aren't exactly great defensively either). Ok, so they can go sit on an objective and be a bit tougher...well they can do that anyway due to character protection, and things that can get to them and threaten them pre-Invuln/Modifier are probably going to be decent enough to threaten them anyway because 4/5W at T4 and 3+/5++/-1 isn't exactly a lot to deal with.

 

What underutilised thing do you think people should do more with? What thing that other people dismiss, in your opinion and/or experience, has been/is good, and why?

[Captain Idaho]

=][= This is the one and only warning in this thread - stop the off topic and unconstructive bickering. It's the 2nd topic I have cleaned up today.

 

Use the report function, as a tip, if you feel someone has derailed a thread or is being provocative. =][=

Edited January 17, 2020 by Captain Idaho