How do we feel about Abaddon as Warmaster of Chaos?

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

How do we feel about Abaddon as Warmaster of Chaos? Is he a great leader worthy of respect or a poser obsessed with power throwing his weight around?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

It would depend on the warband - the chaos legions of old are no longer monlithic entities, so there is no single "line" that a given emperor's children warband is required to believe.

[WarriorFish]

Almost all the times my forces have met him it has been as enemies - and he was mercilessly cut down He is not worthy of anything, except maybe catching bolts

 

As Rumi says, it depends much on the warband. That said given the nature of EC and Slaaneshi CSM in general they're probably not that interested in following anything but sating their own needs and desires. It may be more of a case of what is offered directly or indirectly by Abaddon, but that's likely true of most warbands regardless of dedication or origin.

[Panzer]

Really depends on the warband.

There are Emperor's Children who willingly follow him, plenty who don't care about his big plan, some who seek the pleasure planet and Fulgrim (apparently a thing of the past these days considering the reports of Fulgrim and his Legion being active again spread through various books), some who want to rebuild the Legion but with themselves at the top and so on and on.

 

My Emperor's Children (when we finally get new Noise Marines)? They'll join Abaddon for a while because he kinda rocks and a tour together with him would be awesome, but eventually they'd get bored and leave him again because he simply isn't as metal as they are. :P 

[Hathor42]

Seeing as he killed their world I'd say most EC are not fans.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The Emperors Children were irreparably fractured after Skalathrax, nothing was "their world" after that, save Fulgrim's planet. Individual warbands may have controlled planets, including the Choral City, but they no longer operated as a Legion after Khârn's rampage.

[Marshal Loss]

My EC will be working with the Warmaster as part of Eidolon's host.

[Lucerne]

Considering the Emperor's children despise the Slaaneshi Black Legionaries...

[Lord_Caerolion]

For reasons that make absolutely no sense, mind you. The way it's written implies the only Slaaneshi Black Legionnaires are ex-Emperors Children, which obviously isn't actually the case. How is a Slaaneshi Black Legionnaire who used to be an Iron Warrior a traitor to Fulgrim?

 

Every time GW starts making progress with the fact that the Legions aren't all comprised of cookie-cutter stereotypes and nothing else, they then write something like this that ruins it again. This is why AD-B hates those Black Legion subfactions.

[MegaVolt87]

For reasons that make absolutely no sense, mind you. The way it's written implies the only Slaaneshi Black Legionnaires are ex-Emperors Children, which obviously isn't actually the case. How is a Slaaneshi Black Legionnaire who used to be an Iron Warrior a traitor to Fulgrim?

 

Every time GW starts making progress with the fact that the Legions aren't all comprised of cookie-cutter stereotypes and nothing else, they then write something like this that ruins it again. This is why AD-B hates those Black Legion subfactions.

 

Yeah its odd the other three seem to be a mix or are formed of a core of something like berserker surgeons, DG surgeons who can do real plague marines, and TS sorcs who can make rubrics + assorted renegades + OG legionaries in the ranks. Makes no sense that the Slaanesh BL sub faction is just EC exclusively. Not to mention BL would have the most beef with EC and WB out of all the other legions, so having a lot of EC without other independent Slaanesh marked as a counter rival sub-sub faction also doesn't make a lot of sense. Abaddon rules by division, makes no sense to have a unified faction of just one legion instead of many like the other three.... 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Even the Sons of the Cyclops I dislike, as it goes back into the pitfalls of the 3.5 Codex of refusing to recognize that non-Legion Marines exist. Why are the only Tzeentchian Legionnaires apparently ex-Thousand Sons? I mean, Sons of the Cyclops only makes sense for Thousand Sons, it's not a generic Tzeentch thing.

[Paturabo]

Even the Sons of the Cyclops I dislike, as it goes back into the pitfalls of the 3.5 Codex of refusing to recognize that non-Legion Marines exist. Why are the only Tzeentchian Legionnaires apparently ex-Thousand Sons? I mean, Sons of the Cyclops only makes sense for Thousand Sons, it's not a generic Tzeentch thing.

Lore wise, with the exception of the Aspiring Sorcerer leading the unit, the rest of the Rubrics have to be Thousand Sons because the Rubric of Ahriman was a spell that turned 90% of their Legion into walking, mindless, dust pans. They have to be lead by a Tzeentchian Sorcerer because they have no will of their own, though the Aspiring Sorcerer himself doesn't have to be from the Legion, just whoever was able to bind the Rubrics to their will.

 

The rest of the Cult units, Noise Marines included, don't have this issue. Yeah the Emperor's Children had the first Noise Marines, but any Slaanesh blessed warriors with access to sonic weaponry can become a noise marine. Same goes for Beserkers and Plague Marines.

[Morovir]

I mean, the leader of the Children of Torment, Devram Korda, is a former Son of Horus, thus defeating the entire point that all Slaaneshi Black Legionnaires are ex-Emperor's Children.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Even the Sons of the Cyclops I dislike, as it goes back into the pitfalls of the 3.5 Codex of refusing to recognize that non-Legion Marines exist. Why are the only Tzeentchian Legionnaires apparently ex-Thousand Sons? I mean, Sons of the Cyclops only makes sense for Thousand Sons, it's not a generic Tzeentch thing.

Lore wise, with the exception of the Aspiring Sorcerer leading the unit, the rest of the Rubrics have to be Thousand Sons because the Rubric of Ahriman was a spell that turned 90% of their Legion into walking, mindless, dust pans. They have to be lead by a Tzeentchian Sorcerer because they have no will of their own, though the Aspiring Sorcerer himself doesn't have to be from the Legion, just whoever was able to bind the Rubrics to their will.

 

The rest of the Cult units, Noise Marines included, don't have this issue. Yeah the Emperor's Children had the first Noise Marines, but any Slaanesh blessed warriors with access to sonic weaponry can become a noise marine. Same goes for Beserkers and Plague Marines.

 

 

I know what Rubric Marines are. Read the first part of my post again. What I meant is that it's possible to have Tzeentch-marked Chaos Marines that aren't Rubric Marines or Sorcerors, because not every Marine who worships a God is a Cult unit. When an Alpha Legion member turns to Tzeentch worship, he doesn't turn into dust if he's not a Sorceror. Similarly, turning to Tzeentch doesn't make them into a Sorceror. They're simply a Chaos Marine blessed by Tzeentch. However, the Sons of the Cyclops, apparently only consist of Thousand Sons, despite being all of the Tzeentch worshippers. This is the same as the Children of Torment, explicitly stated to be the entirety of the followers of Slaanesh in the Black Legion, are all implied to be previously members of the Emperors Children. In other words, there's no such thing as a Night Lord turning to Slaanesh and joining the Black Legion.

 

It's simply a continuation of GW's refusal to portray Legion members as anything other than their stereotypes. We don't get any Nurglish Iron Warriors any more, because they're all grizzled, atheistic siege specialists. Chaos is meant to be just that, chaotic. GW's inability to portray God-blessed troops as containing anything other than Cult units in their codices doesn't fit that.

 

It's also why, despite the love some have for the 3.5 codex, I hate parts of it with a burning passion. It was impossible to have Chaos Marines with Marks that weren't Cult Legion members. Want Nurgle Marines? Too bad, you're Death Guard now, so hope you don't like transports or bikes. Khorne? Every single member is a Berserker, despite fluff existing of Khornate heavy weapon specialists. Tzeentch Marines? Sorry, those recent traitors from M41 just all exploded into dust, and only their Librarians survived. Didn't want non-Rubrics? Too bad, it's Rubrics or Psykers for you, absolutely nothing else.

[Hathor42]

The Emperors Children were irreparably fractured after Skalathrax, nothing was "their world" after that, save Fulgrim's planet. Individual warbands may have controlled planets, including the Choral City, but they no longer operated as a Legion after Khârn's rampage.

After skalathrax Abaddon dropped a giant ship on Canticle City on the planet Harmony which they basically owned and traded there with the dark mechanicus. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

The Emperors Children were irreparably fractured after Skalathrax, nothing was "their world" after that, save Fulgrim's planet. Individual warbands may have controlled planets, including the Choral City, but they no longer operated as a Legion after Khârn's rampage.

After skalathrax Abaddon dropped a giant ship on Canticle City on the planet Harmony which they basically owned and traded there with the dark mechanicus. 

 

 

Yes, I know, that's why I mentioned the Choral City. What you are missing is that after Skalathrax the Emperors Children, as a Legion, didn't own anything. That's the whole significance of Skalathrax. It broke the Legion entirely. They were no longer a Legion. They no longer operated as a whole, but only at warband levels. Harmony was a base to some Emperors Children, but it was absolutely not a Legion-wide base. Therefore, the Emperors Children who did not make use of Harmony/Choral City, and in all likelihood despised those warbands who did operate from there, would not hate Abaddon for destroying it.

 

The Emperors Children are one of the most fragmented Traitor Legions in the Eye, second perhaps only to the World Eaters. They do not do anything in Legion strength, do not operate as a Legion, work as a Legion, fight as a Legion, recruit as a Legion, or live together as a Legion. Therefore, what happens to one Emperors Children held world is unlikely to bother the Emperors Children who do not operate from there and have nothing to do with it. Why should they care what happens to the stronghold of a warband they loathe? Hell, lots of them probably love Abaddon for killing hated rivals.

 

Do some care? Probably. They might see it as an affront to the pride of their old Legion. The majority, though? They absolutely don't care. That's why they're a broken Legion. Because they don't have a common cause or leader anymore (at least until Fulgrim returns from his drug bender/orgy).

And yes, Skalathrax had occurred by the time of the events in Talon of Horus. Khayon makes a reference to how Leor's Legion died there.

[Panzer]

 

The Emperors Children are one of the most fragmented Traitor Legions in the Eye, second perhaps only to the World Eaters. They do not do anything in Legion strength, do not operate as a Legion, work as a Legion, fight as a Legion, recruit as a Legion, or live together as a Legion. Therefore, what happens to one Emperors Children held world is unlikely to bother the Emperors Children who do not operate from there and have nothing to do with it. Why should they care what happens to the stronghold of a warband they loathe? Hell, lots of them probably love Abaddon for killing hated rivals.

 

Well that used to be the case at least. During Gathering Storm it got hinted that they are back acting at Legion strength. ;) 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Which seems to only be the case now that Fulgrim has apparently returned from his epic bender. For the last 10,000 years, they've been utterly fragmented.

[Panzer]

Exactly. It used to be but apparently isn't the case anymore not that their Primarch is around. Which also explains the "weird" behaviour of them ignoring undefended planets while chasing after Eldar and such.

[Lord_Caerolion]

However, that still doesn't mean they'll hate Abaddon for what he did to rival EC warbands thousands of years ago.

[Panzer]

Never said or implied it would mean that they'll hate Abaddon. For the most part they simply don't care and would still not care about most anything except for their selfish desires if there wasn't someone like Fulgrim or Bile or such step forward to take the lead.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Apologies, was basically agreeing with you. They're only just now unifying, so for the last 10,000 years they won't have cared what was done to guys they don't like.

[MegaVolt87]

I dunno, EC are an uppity bunch. Horus had to stage manage Fulgrim for him to actually do anything. Not sure Abaddon could do the same again if Fulgrim takes the lead of EC again. Fulgrim returning definitely will change the BL/ EC dynamics. Actually any returning primarchs for CSM would do the same to Abbadon's alliances spider web. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Except it’s long been part of Abaddons background that he has the support of all the Daemon Primarchs. Not that they’re subservient, but they’re definitely allied, with Abaddon holding the upper hand.

[Panzer]

Yeah the Daemon Primarchs might not share Abaddons goals but they do acknowledge his position and support them when they think it would benefit them too.