Close Combat units and combos post F&F

[Marshal Laeroth]

Well, Ben (BT player at Fargo Two Rivers tournament) is currently 2-1, with wins against Death Guard and Imperial soup, and the loss against Space Wolves. Pretty good for a non-optimized list.

[Marshal_von_Speer]

I get the impression, that even with the help of warlord traits, litanies, stratagems, chapter tactics etc. is it extremely hard to make melee work. More often than not I find my cc squads shot to pieces before they can bring back their points. I also find it extremely difficult to make good use of our traits, auras, litanies etc. without getting my characters exposed and killed.

 

I feel that even with all the support from stratagems, litanies, chapter tactics etc. we're not really competitive in melee...

[Acebaur]

I get the impression, that even with the help of warlord traits, litanies, stratagems, chapter tactics etc. is it extremely hard to make melee work. More often than not I find my cc squads shot to pieces before they can bring back their points. I also find it extremely difficult to make good use of our traits, auras, litanies etc. without getting my characters exposed and killed.

 

I feel that even with all the support from stratagems, litanies, chapter tactics etc. we're not really competitive in melee...

Its not that melee isn't good, in fact it's the opposite. It's the most powerful phase of the game. Which is why it is much harder to do it well. However done correctly you can crush entire armies with melee.

 

As you put it, the challenge is to get the units you need where they need to go before getting shot. For this you need distraction units and units to tie up their shooting. Things like concealed deployment and drop pods are great for this.

 

You also need to make sure that you don't kill a unit and the. Be left out in the open to get shot. Trap units and/or use Tenacious Assault to keep things tied up in CC. Kill them on their turn so you can charge again om yours.

[Marshal_von_Speer]

 

I get the impression, that even with the help of warlord traits, litanies, stratagems, chapter tactics etc. is it extremely hard to make melee work. More often than not I find my cc squads shot to pieces before they can bring back their points. I also find it extremely difficult to make good use of our traits, auras, litanies etc. without getting my characters exposed and killed.

 

I feel that even with all the support from stratagems, litanies, chapter tactics etc. we're not really competitive in melee...

Its not that melee isn't good, in fact it's the opposite. It's the most powerful phase of the game. Which is why it is much harder to do it well. However done correctly you can crush entire armies with melee.

 

As you put it, the challenge is to get the units you need where they need to go before getting shot. For this you need distraction units and units to tie up their shooting. Things like concealed deployment and drop pods are great for this.

 

You also need to make sure that you don't kill a unit and the. Be left out in the open to get shot. Trap units and/or use Tenacious Assault to keep things tied up in CC. Kill them on their turn so you can charge again om yours.

 

You are right. There are just so many things you need to factor in. And on most of these you only have limited influence. I find melee to be very high risk /moderat-high reward. Compared to it shooting is just way less effort and more reliability.

[Marshal Laeroth]

Well, Ben (BT player at Fargo Two Rivers tournament) is currently 2-1, with wins against Death Guard and Imperial soup, and the loss against Space Wolves. Pretty good for a non-optimized list.

As predicted, the footslogging nature of the list got the best of Ben...who ended up 2-3 at the Fargo Two Rivers tourney. Losses against Imperium and Chaos Space Marines.

[redmapa]

Yeah I think this kind of list needs some way to reach the oppononent on your first turn while the meat of your army is in deep strike and 30 Primaris infantry are not enough to deal with some of the bigger threats, the Eliminators/TFC are ok but I can imagine they are a priority target during the first turn or ignored at worst since they will be erasing infantry, will that be enough? I guess it depends on the match up, a tank heavy list just ignores their bolter fire and against more shooty armies I dont think they are winning the exchange.

 

I honestly have no idea what the best support for this type of list is and Im not the most competitive player out there so maybe Im talking out of my bum but I do love Terminators and I do think our rules can make them work and in the spirit of that idea I think a good addition to a Terminator bomb or a deep strike heavy list is to simply add more Deep Strike elements in the form of Drop Pods, they can protect your troops by keeping them off the table and give your more deadly units (like sternguard or devastators or company veterans) more reach to hurt what needs to die on turn 1.

[AlmightyWalrus]

The Devout Push slingshot (move+run and then 2x Devout Push while near a Chaplain with the Litany doubling Pile In distance) has to be a thing on Assault Centurions. It counters their immense lack of movement while also letting you buff them up with the 5+++ Litany and Transhuman Physiology. We already know what Raven Guard could do with them, and we've got a bunch of melee buffs they don't.

[Acebaur]

The Devout Push slingshot (move+run and then 2x Devout Push while near a Chaplain with the Litany doubling Pile In distance) has to be a thing on Assault Centurions. It counters their immense lack of movement while also letting you buff them up with the 5+++ Litany and Transhuman Physiology. We already know what Raven Guard could do with them, and we've got a bunch of melee buffs they don't.

 

I dunno, they don't have an invul which leaves them pretty vunerable in the open, even with a 5+ FNP

[AlmightyWalrus]

 

The Devout Push slingshot (move+run and then 2x Devout Push while near a Chaplain with the Litany doubling Pile In distance) has to be a thing on Assault Centurions. It counters their immense lack of movement while also letting you buff them up with the 5+++ Litany and Transhuman Physiology. We already know what Raven Guard could do with them, and we've got a bunch of melee buffs they don't.

 

I dunno, they don't have an invul which leaves them pretty vunerable in the open, even with a 5+ FNP

 

They do if you bring an Apothecary, and there's the Shroud for a one-turn 4++.

 

Besides, how many AP-4 or better weapons are there out there? A 2+ armour save is still a 5+ against AP-3.

[Acebaur]

 

 

The Devout Push slingshot (move+run and then 2x Devout Push while near a Chaplain with the Litany doubling Pile In distance) has to be a thing on Assault Centurions. It counters their immense lack of movement while also letting you buff them up with the 5+++ Litany and Transhuman Physiology. We already know what Raven Guard could do with them, and we've got a bunch of melee buffs they don't.

 

I dunno, they don't have an invul which leaves them pretty vunerable in the open, even with a 5+ FNP

 

They do if you bring an Apothecary, and there's the Shroud for a one-turn 4++.

 

Besides, how many AP-4 or better weapons are there out there? A 2+ armour save is still a 5+ against AP-3.

 

 

If you were going to try something like this I'd say take 6 of them and you'd need MoS with the Breviary to make sure your litanies go off. The trouble with them is that if you advance them then you potentially waste their massive firepower from their hurricane bolters. 

[AlmightyWalrus]

But you'd only have to advance them on turn 1, and even then you can skip out on the 3.5" from advancing and still be in the enemy lines turn 2.

[Hymnblade]

You also need two chaplains to make it work: one for Canticle, and another for Litany of Divine Protection. A Selfless Healer apothecary might be a good idea to help pick up the ones that get shot, which then lets you grab the 5++ relic too, and Fervent Acclamation can make it a 4" bubble, which isn't so restrictive. But that's a lot of character support for one squad.

[AlmightyWalrus]

The Chaplains can pivot to other squads if they have to though. Sure, it's a deathstar list, but GK seem to be doing well enough with their Paladin bombs.

 

 

EDIT: On a side-note, can you use Devout Push in your opponent's fight phase to fall OUT of melee range, thus in theory saving a unit from being attacked in melee for a measly 1 CP? If so, holy moly.

Edited March 10, 2020 by AlmightyWalrus

[Hymnblade]

Pile-ins require you to move closer to the closest enemy. Occasionally this lets you pivot out of range of one enemy and towards another, but you can't really use it to get out of combat completely.

[ThirtySixNights]

I just ran a chaplain with litany of divine protection and Frontline commander and found both of these things to be a total waste, never having an impact. I'm keeping the aurillian shroud though.

 

I'm going to try using the range improving litany to make my hq positioning easier, was such a challenge. Especially t1 with aurillian shroud.

 

Edit: also has anyone else tried sigislash since f&f? I ran mine like this:

 

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Black Templars Sword Brethren

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [6 PL, 103pts]: Chainsword, Jump Pack, Master Swordsman, Storm shield, Teeth of Terra, Warlord

 

He literally took out close to a thousand points in my last game!

Edited March 11, 2020 by ThirtySixNights

[Acebaur]

I just ran a chaplain with litany of divine protection and Frontline commander and found both of these things to be a total waste, never having an impact. I'm keeping the aurillian shroud though.

 

I'm going to try using the range improving litany to make my hq positioning easier, was such a challenge. Especially t1 with aurillian shroud.

 

Edit: also has anyone else tried sigislash since f&f? I ran mine like this:

 

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Black Templars Sword Brethren

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [6 PL, 103pts]: Chainsword, Jump Pack, Master Swordsman, Storm shield, Teeth of Terra, Warlord

 

He literally took out close to a thousand points in my last game!

 

 

Really? I've gotten great use out of Divine Protection. It's helped keep LRC and dreadnoughts alive a lot longer. I think it and the shroud are important to keep big stuff like LRC alive long enough to deliver their payload

[Schlitzaf]

Honestly, its hard for me to be taking atleast, Divine Protection, Persecution and Canticle of Hate every game. Of the 3 the one I find least relavent is Persecution because reasons.

 

Also how everyone found opanion on Crusader’s Helm? Vs our other relics (also Judgement vs Teeth, on Sigislash/Marshall Law?)

[Acebaur]

Honestly, its hard for me to be taking atleast, Divine Protection, Persecution and Canticle of Hate every game. Of the 3 the one I find least relavent is Persecution because reasons.

 

Also how everyone found opanion on Crusader’s Helm? Vs our other relics (also Judgement vs Teeth, on Sigislash/Marshall Law?)

 

Honestly, I don't know if Canticles is really needed, at least not for charging. If you wanted to use it for devout push that is something else, but I think there are better litanies to be had. 

 

I like the crusader helm. The best(maybe the only?) character to run it on is a phobos captain. This is because he is on the board turn 1 to use it on a unit of Incursors or Invictor, or even scouts. Also extends his range of re-roll 1's which is nice.  In theory you could use it on someone else, maybe a chaplain or a captain with a JP but the most effecient use of it is on the phobos capt

[Schlitzaf]

I use it for 6” Devout Push mostly. Also been genuinely thinking about Fervant Accalmation

 

*Honestly a Phobos Cpt not having multidamage melee options is big turn for me

[Acebaur]

I use it for 6” Devout Push mostly. Also been genuinely thinking about Fervant Accalmation

 

*Honestly a Phobos Cpt not having multidamage melee options is big turn for me

 

I mean he still has 7 attacks on the charge and the utility he brings to the rest of your force is amazing. Not only the captain aura, but he also  has a 12" deny deep strike aura, and a gun that can pick out characters and does 3 damage and is an assault weapon. So you can advance and still shoot it. Facing lots of witches? he can help there too. Witchseeker bolts are silly on him. BS 2+ re-rolling 1's basically means an auto D3 MW a turn to a psyker every turn. 

[Medjugorje]

All Tournaments i had the plans to participate are cancled. So i just can say a few things about my planned list on the 2 test games I had against IH and IF.