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Psychic Awakening - Deathwatch Hopes


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#126
GrinNfool

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Be more positive! The White Dwarf rules for Inquisition were awesome and the PA rules for GK weren't that many pages and still resulted in a fantastic update. These could be pretty good given the format doesn't really mean anything about the quality or breadth of this update.

I think it's worth being patient and positive.

I get the perspective and trying to not get down on it, but there are some realities that are just going to make this disappointing.  Page counts kinda point this out.  1 page for doctrines 1 page for WT 1 page for relics, 2 pages for strategems, 1 page per datasheet to give DW access to any of the new units, and 2 pages for custom tactics, 1 page for points if anything new.  They aren't going to devote 10-12 pages of WD to DW, so obviously things get left on the cutting room floor.  Obvious losses would be any new units, custom tactics, and probably cut the WT/relic page in half and do 3 of each.  Getting an abridged version of the things every other chapter gets is kinda.... disheartening.

 

Only real hope for this would be it coming out in conjunction with an online release of additional datasheets available to DW, but I think thats a reach, still a hope though.


Edited by GrinNfool, 05 April 2020 - 03:04 AM.

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#127
Paulinus

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I’m going to be a bit of an optimist.

Most PA books only have a few pages of actual rules.

If they can put Assassins and Inquisition in a WD then it isn’t impossible that they can possibly add a few datasheets.

Heck maybe the ability to add Infiltrators or Incursors to Intercessors squads would be cool.

“If an Infiltrator is part of an intercessors squad, the squad gains infiltration and can use smoke grenades” for example or can use the Omni scrambler rule. Something like that. Minor tweak.

Hopefully we’ll get the master of sanctity, chief apothecary and chief librarian strats.

Maybe a few other anti xenos strats as well.

Something to fix the Corvus.

We’ll see.

Edited by Paulinus, 05 April 2020 - 02:25 PM.


#128
Prot

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I think a positive angle on this is Thousand Sons. They got very few rules, but they came from one of the smallest sections of their PA. They got one page of Stratagems and they are all excellent. 

 

Also, and maybe this is just me, but I think they really want to sell those White Dwarf issues. And as we know with previews on youtube, etc, If those rules stink, we'll know way in advance, and everyone that would pick it up for those rules will skip it.

 

Another interesting angle might be the lead time the books have. Typically a monthly magazine needs about 90 days lead time. I wonder how long these PA's go from writing time to in our hands.


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#129
Lemondish

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Be more positive! The White Dwarf rules for Inquisition were awesome and the PA rules for GK weren't that many pages and still resulted in a fantastic update. These could be pretty good given the format doesn't really mean anything about the quality or breadth of this update.

I think it's worth being patient and positive.

I get the perspective and trying to not get down on it, but there are some realities that are just going to make this disappointing.  Page counts kinda point this out.  1 page for doctrines 1 page for WT 1 page for relics, 2 pages for strategems, 1 page per datasheet to give DW access to any of the new units, and 2 pages for custom tactics, 1 page for points if anything new.  They aren't going to devote 10-12 pages of WD to DW, so obviously things get left on the cutting room floor.  Obvious losses would be any new units, custom tactics, and probably cut the WT/relic page in half and do 3 of each.  Getting an abridged version of the things every other chapter gets is kinda.... disheartening.

 

Only real hope for this would be it coming out in conjunction with an online release of additional datasheets available to DW, but I think thats a reach, still a hope though.

 

 

Actually, nothing in that is obvious, because your speculation on the limitation of White Dwarf doesn't actually match reality. Page counts aren't as big of an issue as you seem to think. Why wouldn't they devote 12 pages to Deathwatch when the White Dwarf Indexes already exceed that number?

 

Just from the ones I own...

 

Inquisition was 23 pages, 12 of which were rules and datasheets

Assassins was 21 pages, 4 of which were rules and datasheets

Ynnari was 23 pages, 10 of which were rules and datasheets

 

Now, with PA, the Greater Good...

6 pages of rules for Astra Militarum and 4 pages for Ordo Tempestus

8 pages of rules for Genestealer Cults

 

Blood of Baal...

8 pages of rules for Tyranids

 

A White Dwarf feature can hold a faction's worth of PA updates because the Indexes have matched or exceeded this in page count in the past. It won't be one of the bigger updates, that's for sure, but it's silly to think a small faction like Deathwatch could even fill that much space. But it can absolutely hit 23 pages with a decent amount of new lore, rules, and datasheets without dropping anything.

 

This update can be as robust as any other PA release because being in White Dwarf instead of sharing space in a separate book does not in any way have an impact on the breadth of the content available. It will end up cheaper, and come to us sooner, but White Dwarf won't affect what can be in it. 

 

All that matters is what will be in it, and there's really nothing we can speculate on that front. There's ultimately nothing stopping GW from making a full DW update here. 


Edited by Lemondish, 05 April 2020 - 04:29 PM.


#130
Mr4Minutes

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I think comparing DeathWatch to the inquisition or assassins is more apples and oranges. The Inquisition and assassin’s aren’t a full army, but a couple of units that had no real home.

DeathWatch are a full codex army. And more, they’re now essentially a space marine supplement.

I agree GW can put anything they want in the white dwarf. We may get the entire supplement they need. The question is will GW put the effort into rules they’ll only get 9$ for as they do a 45$+?

DeathWatch need a lot of updates. We’re still using the original warp charge costs for our psychic powers. And considering how many versions we end up with when GW does an faq... that’s what has me doubting the idea of a robust update in a white dwarf.

I’m not saying it can’t happen, I’m just lowering my expectations that I had when we thought we were getting a full PA inclusion.
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#131
Lemondish

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I think comparing DeathWatch to the inquisition or assassins is more apples and oranges. The Inquisition and assassin’s aren’t a full army, but a couple of units that had no real home.

DeathWatch are a full codex army. And more, they’re now essentially a space marine supplement.

I agree GW can put anything they want in the white dwarf. We may get the entire supplement they need. The question is will GW put the effort into rules they’ll only get 9$ for as they do a 45$+?

DeathWatch need a lot of updates. We’re still using the original warp charge costs for our psychic powers. And considering how many versions we end up with when GW does an faq... that’s what has me doubting the idea of a robust update in a white dwarf.

I’m not saying it can’t happen, I’m just lowering my expectations that I had when we thought we were getting a full PA inclusion.

 

I'm comparing the page counts, mate. It's all apples to oranges because there have never been PA updates in a WD. I thought that was pretty clear but it seems you're kind of missing the point, I think perhaps intentionally, because comparing them to a marine supplement actually strengthens the idea that White Dwarf is more than sufficient to put these rules. Those were significantly shorter than a full PA update.  

 

The point is that page count is not something we should be concerned about in this case. The cost is a benefit at this point until we see the quality of the update. You're now putting forward speculation that because the cost is lower than a $45 book, there wouldn't be an incentive for GW to provide a good update. Posit that promoting their subscription based service with good content would be enough of an incentive to get this right. Neither is really definitive, though. Further, there are some $45 book updates for some factions that were not received very well from the fans of those factions, so it isn't like cost of the publication has resulted in a guaranteed hit. 

 

Ultimately, I do not think there's anything we can really be certain of except that we'll get this sooner than a normal PA release and for cheaper. Just being in WD doesn't mean anything outside of that, so I don't see the point in losing our minds yet. We can't be certain about how far it will go, or how good the rules will be, based just on the fact that it is in WD. All I'm saying is we can try to be more positive until there's a reason to get the pitchfork and torches out. The update being in WD isn't that reason, and if we're outraged at every turn how can folks at GW ever get anything right? 



#132
Mr4Minutes

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@Lemondish I wasn’t directly responding to your post, but giving my opinion on what I have read in a few posts now. I agree page count is not an indicator for anything.

Optimistically we can get everything in a White Dwarf update. Nothing says that the DW PA content wasn’t always intended to be in the WD.

The reason I have doubts in the quality of content we’ll receive is because historically GW has always put the quantity we are expecting behind a much higher paywall.

We have been looking forward to a supplements worth of updates. Doctrines, Litanies, psychic powers, data sheets, relics, warlord traits etc. We want Phobos units, Phobos kill teams, Primaris Watch Master etc.

Did I expect to get all of that? No, I didn’t. But I did think we’d get most of it. (Some of that is more likely codex content)

I just don’t see GW putting a supplements worth of content(which for SM are 30$USD regardless of page count) into a White Dwarf magazine.

Can I be wrong? Hopefully. Is it more negative then positive? Yes. Should we stop speculating? Of course not! This is 40k and that’s part of the fun.

Hopefully it’s next months issue so we can start talking about what’s actually in the magazine.

#133
Mobius0288

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Speculation is fun but you all need to realize there was maybe 3-4 sentences said about DW in the livestream, and 3 sentences said on the community website. There is not enough information to determine if ALL of the PA (Pariah) rules will be in the upcoming white dwarf or just a few. They just said to expect to see some rules coming soon. We are still getting a PA book, which was confirmed on the livestream. Those, unfortunately, are the only sources of confirmed information, and it's still super vague.

 

I'm seeing people committing to selling their armies because of what was and wasn't talked about on the livestream. Try to be patient my brothers and don't get too far ahead of yourselves on so little information.

 

You KNOW they have to bring us up to par with space marines and give us litanies, psychic powers and some additional DW specific rule.


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#134
MCC

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Speculation is fun but you all need to realize there was maybe 3-4 sentences said about DW in the livestream, and 3 sentences said on the community website. There is not enough information to determine if ALL of the PA (Pariah) rules will be in the upcoming white dwarf or just a few. They just said to expect to see some rules coming soon. We are still getting a PA book, which was confirmed on the livestream. Those, unfortunately, are the only sources of confirmed information, and it's still super vague.

 

I'm seeing people committing to selling their armies because of what was and wasn't talked about on the livestream. Try to be patient my brothers and don't get too far ahead of yourselves on so little information.

 

You KNOW they have to bring us up to par with space marines and give us litanies, psychic powers and some additional DW specific rule.

 

Having re-watched the stream I didn't hear them say deathwatch were going to be in pariah or indeed any psychic awakening book, just that we were going to be getting rules for them in an upcoming white dwarf. Whilst i hope i am wrong it certainly seems that were just getting the rules in a white dwarf and nothing in an actual book. Whilst I'm happy to be getting new rules i cant see it being the massive overhaul we all wanted and our army needed. Hopefully this just means that when the covid19 stuff blows over we will be one of the first codexes to be getting a remake.  


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#135
Azaiel

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A new article is up on WHC-site about the nest White dwarf and the rules for Deasthwatch is in it:

 

https://www.warhamme...omepage-post-3/

 

Quote

"This issue also includes a suite of new rules for Deathwatch armies, including new Stratagems, Litanies of Battle and more. Keep an eye out soon for more details on these awesome additions to your alien-hunting army."

 

I cant see the page number in the pic of contents clearly but I guess we get 5 pages 70-75.

And the watchmaster can be used in blackstone fortress.


Edited by Azaiel, Yesterday, 03:50 PM.

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#136
Lemondish

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I agree, looks like 5 pages in that preview image (70-74 inclusive). Combat Doctrines are also mentioned. Specifically, it says "New Stratagems, combat doctrines and abilities for the alien-hunting elite of the Adeptus Astartes".

Seems to really put to bed the hope for a GK tides like bonus, but I really wonder how Combat Doctrines are going to jive with SIA. Perhaps we'll need another chart for which is best when...

I speculate at this point at least one page for Strats, one page for Litanies, one page for Warlord Traits, and one page for Combat Doctrines and abilities.

Unless there's a section that details the use of entries in the Space Marine Codex for HQs and the Impulsor like what was originally done in the Index (or the errata added in CA for Intercessors), which I fully admit is a stretch, it doesn't look like DW will gain access to the new Primaris tools from this White Dwarf update. All told there is the possibility of a single new data sheet based on page count, but that isn't likely. I'd say we're looking at two pages of Stratagems (which seems far more likely). There's a whole page of Strats they could carry over from the Marine Codex alone.

Not what I was hoping for given what they have done in the past, but I'll wait to pass judgement until I see the rules themselves.

#137
GrinNfool

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I agree, looks like 5 pages in that preview image (70-74 inclusive). Combat Doctrines are also mentioned. Specifically, it says "New Stratagems, combat doctrines and abilities for the alien-hunting elite of the Adeptus Astartes".

Seems to really put to bed the hope for a GK tides like bonus, but I really wonder how Combat Doctrines are going to jive with SIA. Perhaps we'll need another chart for which is best when...

I speculate at this point at least one page for Strats, one page for Litanies, one page for Warlord Traits, and one page for Combat Doctrines and abilities.

Unless there's a section that details the use of entries in the Space Marine Codex for HQs and the Impulsor like what was originally done in the Index (or the errata added in CA for Intercessors), which I fully admit is a stretch, it doesn't look like DW will gain access to the new Primaris tools from this White Dwarf update. All told there is the possibility of a single new data sheet based on page count, but that isn't likely. I'd say we're looking at two pages of Stratagems (which seems far more likely). There's a whole page of Strats they could carry over from the Marine Codex alone.

Not what I was hoping for given what they have done in the past, but I'll wait to pass judgement until I see the rules themselves.

My speculation seems to match reality. smile.png  Easy on your aggressiveness next time.  More or less as expected out of a white dwarf addendum, still though maybe with some luck the strategems are all useful, since it appears we will be getting a bare bones set up.


Edited by GrinNfool, Yesterday, 05:54 PM.


#138
Lemondish

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I agree, looks like 5 pages in that preview image (70-74 inclusive). Combat Doctrines are also mentioned. Specifically, it says "New Stratagems, combat doctrines and abilities for the alien-hunting elite of the Adeptus Astartes".

Seems to really put to bed the hope for a GK tides like bonus, but I really wonder how Combat Doctrines are going to jive with SIA. Perhaps we'll need another chart for which is best when...

I speculate at this point at least one page for Strats, one page for Litanies, one page for Warlord Traits, and one page for Combat Doctrines and abilities.

Unless there's a section that details the use of entries in the Space Marine Codex for HQs and the Impulsor like what was originally done in the Index (or the errata added in CA for Intercessors), which I fully admit is a stretch, it doesn't look like DW will gain access to the new Primaris tools from this White Dwarf update. All told there is the possibility of a single new data sheet based on page count, but that isn't likely. I'd say we're looking at two pages of Stratagems (which seems far more likely). There's a whole page of Strats they could carry over from the Marine Codex alone.

Not what I was hoping for given what they have done in the past, but I'll wait to pass judgement until I see the rules themselves.

My speculation seems to match reality. smile.png  Easy on your aggressiveness next time.  More or less as expected out of a white dwarf addendum, still though maybe with some luck the strategems are all useful, since it appears we will be getting a bare bones set up.

 

 

Sure, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. You expected a page count that did not align with the history of White Dwarf addenda, which definitely felt advised at the time. Can we at least agree that new rules are exciting? No? Well, you do you, but I'm not interested in promoting this childish sense of outrage by pulling out our pitchforks and torches every change we get, where the only moments we find solace in are when we blindingly stumble into those rare situations where it accidentally starts to feel justified. 

Reality is that we still have no idea of the quality of rules here. I choose to believe new rules are always, 100% an opportunity for a good thing, and will only ever join in on criticism when we see the whole picture. You seemed far more keen on crapping on it before we even knew anything about it. You win this round, but that sounds like a sad approach to take all the time down.gif

 

In the meantime, I'll be here excited about this release and nothing you say or do, no amount of complaining and whining you post here and anywhere else, will change that. Personally, I can't wait to get a look at what these new abilities might be, or the new Stratagems. 


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#139
GrinNfool

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I agree, looks like 5 pages in that preview image (70-74 inclusive). Combat Doctrines are also mentioned. Specifically, it says "New Stratagems, combat doctrines and abilities for the alien-hunting elite of the Adeptus Astartes".

Seems to really put to bed the hope for a GK tides like bonus, but I really wonder how Combat Doctrines are going to jive with SIA. Perhaps we'll need another chart for which is best when...

I speculate at this point at least one page for Strats, one page for Litanies, one page for Warlord Traits, and one page for Combat Doctrines and abilities.

Unless there's a section that details the use of entries in the Space Marine Codex for HQs and the Impulsor like what was originally done in the Index (or the errata added in CA for Intercessors), which I fully admit is a stretch, it doesn't look like DW will gain access to the new Primaris tools from this White Dwarf update. All told there is the possibility of a single new data sheet based on page count, but that isn't likely. I'd say we're looking at two pages of Stratagems (which seems far more likely). There's a whole page of Strats they could carry over from the Marine Codex alone.

Not what I was hoping for given what they have done in the past, but I'll wait to pass judgement until I see the rules themselves.

My speculation seems to match reality. smile.png  Easy on your aggressiveness next time.  More or less as expected out of a white dwarf addendum, still though maybe with some luck the strategems are all useful, since it appears we will be getting a bare bones set up.

 

 

Sure, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. You expected a page count that did not align with the history of White Dwarf addenda, which definitely felt advised at the time. Can we at least agree that new rules are exciting? No? Well, you do you, but I'm not interested in promoting this childish sense of outrage by pulling out our pitchforks and torches every change we get, where the only moments we find solace in are when we blindingly stumble into those rare situations where it accidentally starts to feel justified. 

Reality is that we still have no idea of the quality of rules here. I choose to believe new rules are always, 100% an opportunity for a good thing, and will only ever join in on criticism when we see the whole picture. You seemed far more keen on crapping on it before we even knew anything about it. You win this round, but that sounds like a sad approach to take all the time down.gif

 

In the meantime, I'll be here excited about this release and nothing you say or do, no amount of complaining and whining you post here and anywhere else, will change that. Personally, I can't wait to get a look at what these new abilities might be, or the new Stratagems. 

 

Man.. you are angry a lot, I haven't been gloom and doom, just stating its less than I was hoping for, even quoted you saying I hope you are right.  Heck even the last post you quoted I say I as hoping for good strategems at least.  How out of that are you getting I think everything is horrible and always look at the negative.  Lighten up man its a game enjoy life, don't assume poorly of others.  I think I am done responding to your posts though, you are extremely rude.



#140
Irbis

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I speculate at this point at least one page for Strats, one page for Litanies, one page for Warlord Traits, and one page for Combat Doctrines and abilities.

Unless there's a section that details the use of entries in the Space Marine Codex for HQs and the Impulsor like what was originally done in the Index (or the errata added in CA for Intercessors), which I fully admit is a stretch, it doesn't look like DW will gain access to the new Primaris tools from this White Dwarf update. All told there is the possibility of a single new data sheet based on page count, but that isn't likely. I'd say we're looking at two pages of Stratagems (which seems far more likely). There's a whole page of Strats they could carry over from the Marine Codex alone.

Actually, that would be wrong on both counts, seeing they need to waste two pages for all the chaplain datasheets so they can even use litanies in the first place. Every single SM faction PA so far did that, so DW won't be an exception. That leaves one page each for litanies, stratagems, and doctrine, whatever that is. That's it.

 

Which means no warlord traits, no relics, no psychic powers, no superdoctrine, no fluff, no vanguard, no SM fliers, no nothing, unless there is a singular entry tucked somewhere in corner. Doubly so seeing neither the WD previews or content photos mentioned these. Certainly no six entry table of each that every other SM book got. Though we will see in less than a week, I suppose.

 

In hindsight, remember the initial PA list of factions, the first announcement one that outraged people because half of it were missing (before GW hastily edited it to have every army in game)? DW was on it from the start, in top row no less. I just find it funny that say Admech or Sisters have full books of their own focused on them (making complainers look silly) after all and it was DW players who were lied to and had real reason for complaint rolleyesclean.gif



#141
Mr4Minutes

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Well thankfully it’s coming sooner rather then later. And, the way I’m reading it, the white dwarf has already gone to print. Which hopefully means it won’t be too long until we get some photo leaks to see for ourselves what will or won’t be in it.

Since we are still on page count, my guess would be 2 pages of fluff(maybe only 1.5) and 3 pages of rules.

For a plus we now know we’re getting doctrines and Litanies. Whether or not they’re new rules or C:SM rehash we’ll hopefully soon find out.

Lemondish brought up an interesting idea earlier in saying we could get rules linked back to C:SM. Instead of writing full data sheets and strats they could just indicate see page x in C:SM for the rule. While I wouldn’t complain I still think this would suck as I don’t own the codex and would now need to buy it. But at least we’d get access to the new units.

Speculations: it’s looking like our poor watch master won’t be getting the awesome reroll all hits.

Prior PAs have a strat that boosted a specific vehicle. I’m betting we get one for the Corvus:
1 CP: chosen Corvus ignores the move and shoot penalty on heavy weapons for the phase.

Now that we’ve gotten the release date and at least skeleton outline of what we’re getting does anyone have any bold predictions or speculations?
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#142
MCC

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I'm glad we finally have a date for our updates and i'm definitely looking forward to May 2nd.  Sadly judging by the fact it only says were getting new stratagems, Combat Doctrines and Abilities it doesn't look like were getting access to any of the new primaris releases for now. This to me would indicate were either getting a new codex sooner rather than later or were still going to be in a psychic awakening book properly but due to the virus its had to be put back indefinitely. It wouldnt make sense for us to be the only space marine faction without access to the vanguard units because sales.

 

As for what we get id love to have something to make the corvus useful (POTMS).   


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#143
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Guys please remember this is a "Deathwatch Hopes" thread. Let's not bash each other here for our speculations, as wild as some of them might seem. After all this is a speculation thread.

 

May 2nd seems reasonable. I've been dying to pull out my Deathwatch again in more serious games. I've been disappointed with how the codexes have skyrocketed around us, especially lately. I know those of us that play (at least competitively) are really hoping for a lot here.

 

As for what we get id love to have something to make the corvus useful (POTMS)

 

^I completely forgot about that wishlist item. I think many of us thought it was coming 2 or 3 updates ago. Nowadays, I hate to sound negative, but I think that ship sailed, and even if they did it, with how 'killy' everything is I think it's a really difficult model to make functional. 


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#144
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In lieu of gaining any additional characters (at least that's what it seems) it might be a nice touch if they included the option to recruit a released model i.e Tor Garrison, Lazarus etc along with a format of their rules to suit DW.

 

Lore wise DW recruit from the best so it might not be too massive a stretch to allow for the inclusion of named characters for 'Special Op's'. 

 

If nothing else GW would be able to shift a few more models as people kit bash and upgrade DW versions of characters they like at zero cost of producing a DW exclusive. 






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