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Two questions that we should send to 40kfaq@gwplc.com


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41 replies to this topic

#26
Grimdark_Garage

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I could be wrong here seeing as I haven't read into it much but in any book, does it categorically state what colour to paint your Dark Angels or any other faction.

I have painted my Phobos units in Ravenwing colours. Does that mean I can't use them in a DA detachment.
Similarly, I paint agreeesors as Deathwing. Same question.

I am aware though that what you NAME your faction is referenced and DOES mean something
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#27
Cpt_Reaper

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That's why I emailed GW too on this matter. The existence of HotR makes thinks too murky. What defines a Dark Angel vs a Successor if not the colour? Sure, you can use the keyword Dark Angel, but what defence do you have when someone tells you that they are not dark angels?


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#28
bigtrouble

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The question is still kinda legit. True, the only effect of this rule is that you can’t use named characters and relics from the Dark Angels in the successor chapters. Depending on the tournament, you may not be able to counts as for Azrael or whomever to play as Dark Angels if you primarily build a successor but want to use DA character sheets.

The thing that is still strange about this is that successors have to use the DA codex, so they aren’t Space Marines, and cant have their own Chapter Master or chief librarian. This should have been included in the DAs strat list update in PA4, (especially to get Master of Sanctity), and would need a FAQ fix.
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#29
shabbadoo

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I am very happy to finally receive some buffs to our army. Still two questions about this update come to my mind:

  1. Why Azrael was not updated to provide full re-rolls to hit, not only failed rolls? Chapter masters in Codex: Space Marines enjoy full re-rolls, and we are lacking that.

  2. Why Asmodai can recite only one litany, when Cassius and Astorath recite two?

Maybe we should send this questions to 40kfaq@gwplc.com and hope that they will be answered in FAQ for PA4.

1. We lack nothing.

 

Azrael: "Chapter Master: You can re-roll failed hit rolls for friendly DARK ANGELS units that are within 6" of Azrael."

 

C:SM Chapter Master Stratagem:  "CHAPTER MASTER: You can re-roll any failed hit rolls for friendly <CHAPTER> units within 6" of this model."

 

As there is a rule that specifically forbids re-rolling a failed re-roll, the phrases "re-roll failed hit rolls" and "re-roll any failed hit rolls" effectively mean the same thing, so what exactly is the problem? Did I miss an updated rule in a more recent book, or is this a simple case of not understanding the rules?

 

2. Asmodai is a punk, as Grimdark_Garage and Angel of Solitude note. Cassius and Astorath are not. That is the likely reason Asmodai can only use one litany, but by The Lion does he use it more vociferously than any of them! biggrin.png


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#30
Berzul

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I am very happy to finally receive some buffs to our army. Still two questions about this update come to my mind:


  • Why Azrael was not updated to provide full re-rolls to hit, not only failed rolls? Chapter masters in Codex: Space Marines enjoy full re-rolls, and we are lacking that.

  • Why Asmodai can recite only one litany, when Cassius and Astorath recite two?
Maybe we should send this questions to 40kfaq@gwplc.com and hope that they will be answered in FAQ for PA4.
1. We lack nothing.

Azrael: "Chapter Master: You can re-roll failed hit rolls for friendly DARK ANGELS units that are within 6" of Azrael."

C:SM Chapter Master Stratagem: "CHAPTER MASTER: You can re-roll any failed hit rolls for friendly <CHAPTER> units within 6" of this model."

As there is a rule that specifically forbids re-rolling a failed re-roll, the phrases "re-roll failed hit rolls" and "re-roll any failed hit rolls" effectively mean the same thing, so what exactly is the problem? Did I miss an updated rule in a more recent book, or is this a simple case of not understanding the rules?

2. Asmodai is a punk, as Grimdark_Garage and Angel of Solitude note. Cassius and Astorath are not. That is the likely reason Asmodai can only use one litany, but by The Lion does he use it more vociferously than any of them! biggrin.png

Over here in my community, it has been understood that Azrael allows rerolls for results that fail PRIOR to any modifiers.

The other auras allow you to reroll any failed roll, post modifiers.

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#31
bigtrouble

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I am dead sure that re rolls happen first then modifiers, for everyone. That’s a core rule. If that weren’t the case, it would completely nullify re roll 1s abilities. if you applied modifiers first, the 1 would be a 2 and thus non re rollable. But of course, natural 1s fail, which is exactly why the re roll 1s abilities exist.

#32
Phaeton

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C:SM Chapter Master Stratagem: "CHAPTER MASTER: You can re-roll any failed hit rolls for friendly <CHAPTER> units within 6" of this model."


C:SM chapter master stratagem: You can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by models in friendly <CHAPTER> units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model.
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#33
shabbadoo

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The text I posted was verbatim form C: SM 8E. If those are later changes, they still change nothing regarding re-rolls (other than who is able to do so).

 

I am dead sure that re rolls happen first then modifiers, for everyone. That’s a core rule. If that weren’t the case, it would completely nullify re roll 1s abilities. if you applied modifiers first, the 1 would be a 2 and thus non re rollable. But of course, natural 1s fail, which is exactly why the re roll 1s abilities exist.

 

Re-rolling failed hits depends on the base number the unit needs to hit, and so, yes, this rule is effectively of no benefit to units that hit on a 2+. For units that hit on a 3+ or worse, it has much more benefit. "Re-roll 1's" is basically a less effective "Re-roll failed hits" rule. The same goes for the different re-rolling wounds rules.

 

Berzul: As to your Community...

 

Page 178 – Re-rolls
Change this paragraph to read:
‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’

 

Reference (page 1, top right): https://www.warhamme...09/30ead283.pdf

 

Note that there is not a single Re-rolls rule that includes a statement exempting it from the red portion of the Re-rolls rule. If something isn't specifically mentioned in a rule to modify a Core Rule, that Core Rule very much applies - a player does not just get to decide to acknowledge/ignore a rule, or portion of a rule, at their whim. Vanilla Space Marine (and any other Space Marine players for that matter) Chapter Masters/Chapter Master Stratagems "suck" just like Azrael's does: they have to re-roll without modifiers too! If there are some who are not doing this, glory in their realization of their own heresy, and inform them that, if they wish to repent of this most egregious offense against The Emperor, guilt councilors are available in Cell 42.devil.gif

 

EDIT: Hope I got that mess fully edited before any views/replies. biggrin.png


Edited by shabbadoo, 29 January 2020 - 09:21 AM.

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#34
Ipsen

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So where I think you guys might be getting confused is the old chapter master rule allowed you to "re-roll failed hit rolls" and the new one allows you to "re-roll hit rolls" with no mention of those rolls having failed. In the classic example of a chapter master with a power fist, he could not re-roll his 2s as when re-rolls were calculated they had not failed yet and thus weren't eligible for re-roll. The -1 to hit from the power fist was then applied causing them to fail. The new rule lets that chapter master re-roll any of his hit rolls regardless of whether they were successful or not (even the 6s if he were so inclined) so he can choose to re-roll those 2s. Azreal has not been updated with this new version of the rule.

Edited by Ipsen, 31 January 2020 - 10:45 PM.

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#35
shabbadoo

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What books have the new Chapter Master rule been in, and what is the exact text?


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#36
Orkinstein

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Okay, a new question will be:

 

why Interrogator-Chaplain's Aura of Dread aura got nerfed from 6" to 3"...


Edited by Orkinstein, 01 February 2020 - 03:26 PM.

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#37
Grimdark_Garage

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"You can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by models in friendly <CHAPTER> units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model"
So basically, choose which dice you want to re-roll. You could Reroll hits of you wanted to.
This has been established since SM:CODEX V2 was released
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#38
Grand Master Raziel

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I'm going to add my voice to those stating that one can call one's army "Dark Angels" and use the appropriate rules for them regardless of what color they are. All using Successor Chapter rules gets you is limitations. You get no Chapter Master, Master of the Deathwing, Master of the Ravenwing, or chief Librarian. You can't even make a credible generic version of any of those except the Master of the Deathwing with a Terminator Master.  So playing with Successor rules just gimps your army.

Now, if there were supplemental rules for DA successors the way there are for the Codex: Space Marine chapters, that'd be another story. Then you'd be getting something out of making that choice. However, if that were the case, GW would still have to give us rules for a generic Chapter Master, Master of the Deathwing, Master of the Ravenwing, and Chief Librarian. And even then, the way they'd probably go about it is using Strats to upgrade a pre-existing generic character, which means you'd be paying CP for the privilege of playing a Successor chapter. Unless they release some really rocking successor rules, I think I'll just go on playing my blue Unforgiven as Dark Angels.


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#39
Cpt_Reaper

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I need to rephrase my question. Rather than look for clarification on rules that don't exist, I will look at one that does.

Why does Honoured of the Rock exist? If you only pay the cost after choosing to use a Successor keyword, what's stopping you from never doing so therefore not having relic restrictions in the first place.

#40
BlackTriton

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The intent from GW is very much that the color of your army matters.
If you are not "correctly" painted and use the DA chapter rule you are "illegal".
This is enforced at GW organised event.

However, amongst the competitive community (and almost all other community) rule of cool is prevalent and it is understood and accepted that the color your army is not important, given it dosent lead to confusion.

Right now playing Dark angels successor mean's you are simply playing worst DA with no upside. I would personally stay away from anyone that want to enforce strict color code to their event / tables.

Edited by BlackTriton, 03 February 2020 - 12:50 AM.


#41
Berzul

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I need to rephrase my question. Rather than look for clarification on rules that don't exist, I will look at one that does.

Why does Honoured of the Rock exist? If you only pay the cost after choosing to use a Successor keyword, what's stopping you from never doing so therefore not having relic restrictions in the first place.


Nothing is stopping you.

Except, well, yourself. In the sense that, if you WANT to use these rules, you can. Noone else is stopping you.

As for why the stratagem exists?

Because the successors rules exist.

GW clearly expects people to play their armies in the proper color. But, there is no rule for it, and noone really enforces it save for a numbered few. And, as you can see from how this topic has been handled, pretty much everyone else here would agree that if someone does try to enforce color, they would not even play said person.

So, again. What's stopping you? Technically, nothing and noone but yourself.

You want to use the rules this way? Go ahead. You don't? Go ahead. Play as you like.

As for why the stratagem exists? Again, it is because the rules for successors are as they are, and GW wrote the stratagem in as it should. But, the implementation for the stratagem falls on its face due to how baddly the whole successor rules are made in the first place.

"Fiat lux!"
- Battle cry of the Wings of Dawn, a Dark Angel's Successor Chapter

 

gallery_26154_15777_630.png

 

You can read the developing narrative of the Wings of Dawn, as played out in this currently

ongoing Urban Conquest Crusade campaign: "The Conquest of Exelia Tertius".

 


#42
Berzul

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Im simpler terms:

GW expected us to play successors as successors, but forgot that we can always choose not to.

GW included the stratagem because they figured successors who played as successors would benefit from having a way to include relics other than the heavenfall blade, but forgot that you can simply not use the rules at all, making the stratagem redundant.

Noone here argues that GW does not EXPECT you to play the colors you use. We are arguing that the rules do not force you to do so.

Edited by Berzul, 03 February 2020 - 02:09 AM.

"Fiat lux!"
- Battle cry of the Wings of Dawn, a Dark Angel's Successor Chapter

 

gallery_26154_15777_630.png

 

You can read the developing narrative of the Wings of Dawn, as played out in this currently

ongoing Urban Conquest Crusade campaign: "The Conquest of Exelia Tertius".

 





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