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Rites of War and Red Book Alternate Force Org Charts


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17 replies to this topic

#1
Marshal Rohr

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Gents,

 

I was re-reading my red AoD rulebook last night and could not find the restriction on Rites of War with the Onslaught, Castellan, and Leviathan Alternate Force Organizations. The Restriction does appear in the Legiones Astartes Red Book, however. Given the Red Rulebook was published more recently, would this override the restriction in the LA red book?


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#2
The Ironic Warrior

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Unless it says that the optional charts allow them then I would say no, because the most up to date mention of them is in the age of darkness book.

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#3
Charlo

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So while it isn't something that is strictly forbidden, it's also a bit much tbh and you'll probably get some funny looks across the table if you did it!



#4
Marshal Rohr

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Unless it says that the optional charts allow them then I would say no, because the most up to date mention of them is in the age of darkness book.

 

Exactly, and the Age of Darkness rulebook doesn't include the passage about not using them. 


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#5
The Ironic Warrior

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Because it is a rule for space marines, so it is in the space marine book effectively. Just because it isn't in the rulebook explicitly doesn't mean the rule suddenly stops applying.

It applies until a new book says it does not apply.

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#6
Charlo

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Because it is a rule for space marines, so it is in the space marine book effectively. Just because it isn't in the rulebook explicitly doesn't mean the rule suddenly stops applying.

It applies until a new book says it does not apply.


Not correct in this instance.

The Horus Heresy army books and rulebooks have had the "generic" rulesets slightly altered and updated in each one with differences and the prevailing word from FW is that the latest book is the correct one.

In this case too, the AoD Rulebook is years newer than the Marine book, so is the final authority on the matter and the most recent rules.
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#7
The Ironic Warrior

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Because it is a rule for space marines, so it is in the space marine book effectively. Just because it isn't in the rulebook explicitly doesn't mean the rule suddenly stops applying.

It applies until a new book says it does not apply.


Not correct in this instance.

The Horus Heresy army books and rulebooks have had the "generic" rulesets slightly altered and updated in each one with differences and the prevailing word from FW is that the latest book is the correct one.

In this case too, the AoD Rulebook is years newer than the Marine book, so is the final authority on the matter and the most recent rules.

 

That is 100% not correct. By that extension, it means everything that isn't in a new book is automatically outdated. So if we look at it that way, the only Legions with rules are in Malevolence because that's the newest publication. FW have clarified themselves that RoW are only for crusade detachments, not optional ones.


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#8
Marshal Rohr

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Because it is a rule for space marines, so it is in the space marine book effectively. Just because it isn't in the rulebook explicitly doesn't mean the rule suddenly stops applying.

It applies until a new book says it does not apply.


Not correct in this instance.

The Horus Heresy army books and rulebooks have had the "generic" rulesets slightly altered and updated in each one with differences and the prevailing word from FW is that the latest book is the correct one.

In this case too, the AoD Rulebook is years newer than the Marine book, so is the final authority on the matter and the most recent rules.

 

That is 100% not correct. By that extension, it means everything that isn't in a new book is automatically outdated. So if we look at it that way, the only Legions with rules are in Malevolence because that's the newest publication. FW have clarified themselves that RoW are only for crusade detachments, not optional ones.

 

 

Is that in an FAQ?


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#9
The Ironic Warrior

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It's in the legion Astartes age of darkness army list. The entire issue is that they are specificied to not allow rites of war in the States book, which is an Astartes rule but no mention in the main rulebook. This doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist anymore, it's just not necessary to put it in the main rulebook as it only affects one army.

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#10
The Ironic Warrior

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Also, have re-read the rules in the main rulebook talking about detachments. Check this out:

"Other Force Organisation charts are available for players to use, both in this book and in other Forge World publications, and some Army Lists may present specific variants for use with that list. In all cases, these charts will adhere to the same set of basic principles."

"Sometimes, a single choice in a Force Organisation chart may allow you to select more than one unit, or to vary the Battlefield Role of the unit selected. In all cases, such deviations form the normal procedure will be fully explained in the Army List or publication that presents such a Force Organisation chart."

Not only do both of these statements acknowledge the existence and relevance of other detachments in other books, but it also states that there may be exceptions, special circumstances and differing procedures with these detachments in other books or army lists. This is clear as day with the wording in the legion Astartes army list:

"When playing Horus Heresy games using these alternative charts, the Rites of War rules for the Space Marine Legions may not be used in conjunction with them unless specitcally mentioned in the mission, as the provisions and formations illustrated by the chart take precedence over them."

This is a special circumstance in an army list publication, and would therefore fit the description outlined in the first two snippets from the main rulebook.

TL:DR army lists give specific exceptions/rules to the optional force charts unique to their own army but this does not get overruled by the main rulebooks 'generic' ruleset for them.

Edited by The Ironic Warrior, 07 February 2020 - 12:58 PM.

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#11
Marshal Rohr

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That's talking about the Quaestoris List, the Matrix of Ruin, and the Cityfight/Strategic Raid lists. I don't really think it applies to the main three alternate charts since those charts offer no bonuses just slot moves. 


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#12
The Ironic Warrior

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It is talking about all alternative Detachments, including onslaught and castellan. If the matrix of ruin and co are included so are the onslaught and castellan.

They also offer bonuses, the onslaught detachment has special rules.

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#13
Marshal Rohr

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The way I'm thinking about this is the Strategic Raid Force Organization Charts do allow for RoW, as does the Cityfight Entrenched Force. It's only the Incursion Force that stipulates no RoW may be taken directly on the Chart. Alternatively, the LA book says no RoW, but the newer AoD Rulebook reprints the exact same section with no caveat. I believe the older Mechanicum and Crusade Imperialis books include the no RoW prohibition as well, but I'll check tonight. 


Edited by Marshal Rohr, 07 February 2020 - 02:22 PM.

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#14
The Ironic Warrior

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That publication also came out well before the updated Astartes army list where it specifies rites of war cannot be taken in alternative force org charts. This means entrenched Detachments can no longer do it as it now says you cannot.

It's really quite specific, the rule says you cannot do this, and a here publication does not talk about rites of war. Therefore the rule of not being able to take it 100% still stands.

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#15
Marshal Rohr

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I don't agree woth that at all because it very specifically talks about certain RoW no being eligible because of the Force Org restrictions, not RoW not being eligible at all. You can't apply the 'latest publication is right' standard to the alt-orgs from Conquest, but then turn around and say it doesnt matter if its newer in the AoD rulebook. 


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#16
The Ironic Warrior

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That's because in the main rulebook, it does not mention rites of war at all. I'll explain:

Book 4: Rites of war can be taken by optional detachments as detailed etc....

Astartes Army List: Rites of war cannot be taken by optional force organisation charts unless agreed by opponents.

New Rulebook: Rites of war not mentioned in any capacity.

The newest publication being the AoD Rulebook does not mention rites of war in one capacity or another. The previous one does, therefore the rule has NOT been overruled. The newest publication does take precedence yes, but in this instance the absolute newest one does not mention it at all.

Again if we follow that arguement the only legions with rules are white scars and blood angels. Iron warriors weren't in book 8 but because it's the newest it must take precedence over all preceding role releases.

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#17
Marshal Rohr

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That's not how the iterative rules process works. The latest *version* of something is most valid. IE rulebook not prohibiting RoW in alt orgs. The latest version of the iron warriors rule is valid until something replaces them. 


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#18
The Ironic Warrior

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So you have literally just agreed with yourself and disagreed in a single statement. I've been asking around for the benefit of seeing the bigger picture, not a single person has agreed with your arguement I'm afraid. The only time this will fly is if your opponent ages to let you do it. The rules are so clear, please read the rules done more because you are being so selective with which ones you follow and don't follow.


Edited by The Ironic Warrior, 07 February 2020 - 11:14 PM.

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