Will the levi get nerfed in the new forgeworld book?

[emperorpants]

What do you guys think?  I hope it won't, as it's not a problem outside of the IH and IF lists really, but I won't be surprised in the least.  GW has never been known to have a subtle touch.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Have you been listening to the Long War lol !? You know that’s just Spikey Bits right ?

[emperorpants]

Ha, no, I just read the preview and it mentioned that they would be updating the rules of forgeworld units to fit better with other units.  Perhaps I'm being overly cynical, but I took that to mean the levi is likely getting hit with the nerf bat.  lol.

[Closet Skeleton]

The Leviathan has the worst written rules in the space marine part of the index. Even if they nerf it a little it will probably make the non-twin stormcannon variants more viable. Leviathans aren't brokenly powerful but they are in the internal balance wrecking 'a bit too many of the best things' bucket.

 

I'd like to see its WS/BS drop (the fluff says big dreadnoughts burn out their pilots so they shouldn't have venerable stats) in return for being able to ignore movement penalties and the melee rules fixed so gun/claw leviathans can be a thing. I'd also like to see the invulnerable save tied to the damage table if its supposed to be a 'layered' barrier. Keep it T8 so its not just a non-primaris redemptor.

 

Wouldn't mind seeing the storm cannons go down to 8 shots but get a bit more range.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not overly impressed with Storm Cannons really. They're good and all, but double Grav Flux Bombards do so much more damage against targets that need it.

 

I'd like to see it have more attacks in close combat to make having a close combat weapon worthwhile over ranged.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[emperorpants]

I think the levi is fine as is.  If anything needs a change it's the levi's interactions with certain supplements.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I think the levi is fine as is.  If anything needs a change it's the levi's interactions with certain supplements.

 

Since the pilot is either from ancient Terra or the Heresy era, or it's a new pilot that's currently devoting 100% of what remains of his sanity to piloting, they shouldn't get access to things like Devastator Doctrine. If I remember correctly, even the original rules for the Leviathan made it have the same rules as certain Khorne units/6E Carcharodon units where you couldn't control the model fully because it just kept moving towards the enemy. It's not this highly disciplined and synchronized team player like the rest of the army.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I never remember any such restrictions and have played since they first released.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I never remember any such restrictions and have played since they first released.

 

So what if you don't remember it, that doesn't mean it didn't exist.

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/PDF/Datasheets/LeviathanSiegeDreadnoughtRules.pdf

 

A model with this special rule counts as a Relic of the Armoury, but may not take a Legacies of Glory upgrade (see Imperial Armour Volume Two – War Machines of the Adeptus Astartes). In addition, a model with this special rule is immune to Malediction psychic powers, can never be a scoring unit and must always make charges and Sweeping Advances if they are able. A model with this special rule may not benefit from any rules or bonuses usually conferred by being part of a particular Chapter, detachment or formation.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

These look to be rules from 7th edition and if so the data sheet should be updated as such. For instance there’s no longer any Hammer of Wrath attacks nor Sweeping Advances.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Iron Father Ferrum]

BBF. We're talking about the old rules, thus quoting the old rules. Try to keep up.

 

 

While I hope they don't bring back said relic rules, I do think the Levi needs some tweaking. In particular I'd like to see an improvement in its melee capabilities so that there's less of a compulsion to default it to double stormcannons.

[Gederas]

While I hope they don't bring back said relic rules, I do think the Levi needs some tweaking. In particular I'd like to see an improvement in its melee capabilities so that there's less of a compulsion to default it to double stormcannons.

I'm in agreement. The fact that the Leviathan is the only Dreadnought that LOSES attacks from it's PROFILE when you give it ranged weapons is ridiculous. It should always have 4 attacks, and get an extra when equipped with 2 melee weapons (like the Relic Contemptor).

 

Realistically, I'd like it tweaked so that the Storm Cannon Array is not the only real loadout that's truly viable.

 

Also, maybe something like the Crazed rule Helbrute's have? To represent the pilots going a bit bonkers?

Edited January 25, 2020 by Gederas

[MegaVolt87]

I would rather an overcharged type rule that deals MW's for a melee buff if you want to trigger it. RoF tweak for storms, restricted interactions with SM dex rules.

[Hantheman]

It’s probably fairly priced. But like all space marines things now some supplements and strats make certain units poorly balanced.

 

Better off modifying Fists and Iron Hands than units themselves.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Hantheman

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

IH Levi tanked Fire from like 10 grav DevCents in the final match to win LVO.

[Gederas]

It’s probably fairly priced. But like all space marines things now some supplements and strats make certain units poorly balanced.

 

Better off modifying Fists and Iron Hands than units themselves.

Pretty much. The Leviathan is still well over 300 points, even with points drops from Chapter Approved. Hell, it's just Iron Hands. I'm not sure what Fists have that makes Leviathans imba?

 

IH Levi tanked Fire from like 10 grav DevCents in the final match to win LVO.

So it's as durable as any other Iron Hand VEHICLE unit. YOUR. POINT. BEING?

 

Seriously mate, you've added nothing to this discussion aside from non-sequiturs. Can you add something relevant next post please?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

How can that not be relevant? It was really crazy to watch. Note it’s more durable due to 2+ save, T8 and 14 wounds. Edited January 27, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[SkimaskMohawk]

The most obvious nerf is to remove access to duty eternal. The thing is already beefy with a high toughness value, armour and invul; it doesn't require any more help surviving.

 

It also fits the fluff as the occupants burn out fast and certainly aren't around eternally.

[Gederas]

How can that not be relevant? It was really crazy to watch. Note it’s more durable due to 2+ save, T8 and 14 wounds.

Because you posted a random sentence, without any more context.

 

Because THIS

IH Levi tanked Fire from like 10 grav DevCents in the final match to win LVO.

Says utterly NOTHING about how it happened, just that it happened. What else was involved, what was happening on the battlefield. Those are all relevant. What you said, however, is irrelevant to the discussion about if the Leviathan Dreadnought will get nerfed because it lacks any context.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Gederas

[Hymnblade]

The most obvious nerf is to remove access to duty eternal. The thing is already beefy with a high toughness value, armour and invul; it doesn't require any more help surviving.

 

It also fits the fluff as the occupants burn out fast and certainly aren't around eternally.

A more conservative option would be to raise it to 2CP for Leviathans. The strat was is already quite good for the Codex dreadnoughts, mostly t7 with a 3+ and no invul save. It's much stronger when layered on top of T8/2+/4++, not to mention various IH stuff.

[Lord_Caerolion]

How about some sort of rule like "Insensate: Any friendly Stratagem selecting this model as the sole target costs +1CP".

[Iron Father Ferrum]

=][= If you have an issue with a post or frater, use the report button. For the rest of you, play nice or I'm grabbing my plasma cannon. =][=

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think that the results from the LVO final speak for itself. The Levithan is obviously OP as is.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Captain Idaho]

 

The most obvious nerf is to remove access to duty eternal. The thing is already beefy with a high toughness value, armour and invul; it doesn't require any more help surviving.

It also fits the fluff as the occupants burn out fast and certainly aren't around eternally.

 

A more conservative option would be to raise it to 2CP for Leviathans. The strat was is already quite good for the Codex dreadnoughts, mostly t7 with a 3+ and no invul save. It's much stronger when layered on top of T8/2+/4++, not to mention various IH stuff.

I think this is the best option. A solid compromise without breaking a unit.

 

Iron Hands notwithstanding...

[MajorNese]

 

The most obvious nerf is to remove access to duty eternal. The thing is already beefy with a high toughness value, armour and invul; it doesn't require any more help surviving.

 

It also fits the fluff as the occupants burn out fast and certainly aren't around eternally.

A more conservative option would be to raise it to 2CP for Leviathans. The strat was is already quite good for the Codex dreadnoughts, mostly t7 with a 3+ and no invul save. It's much stronger when layered on top of T8/2+/4++, not to mention various IH stuff.

As tournament lists with Castellans have shown - no one cares about an additional CP, if it's your game-winning unit. Spend more in the first rounds, kill everything that's a threat, run out of CP when the largest threats are vaporized. Removing access to it entirely, preventing it to stack with each other (evening out the field with other chapters), or changing it to levels that really restrict it (3-4 CP, depending on Power Level of the unit), seem the only solution.

 

The combination of Ironstone and Duty Eternal are the problem, reducing 3D weaponry to effectively 1D, and invalidating many go-to AT solutions.

 

The 10 grav cents don't say anything about the Levi itself, and doesn't include any context to make sense of it.

With damge reduction and invul it's just the wrong tool for the job - would it be outrageous if a levi survived 40(!!!) heavy bolter shots? I mean, who brings such a ridiculous amount of dakka, a.k.a. less than 5 Inceptors?

Math says, even an IH relic contemptor would take only 5W from that, when using the Ironstone/Duty Eternal combo. And factoring in a Chapter Master reroll for fun.