Will the levi get nerfed in the new forgeworld book?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

What I'm getting from this is "FW is OP."

[Kallas]

What I'm getting from this is "FW is OP."

 

Not even slightly. There's about 85% of the FW stuff that's either garbage, weaker than C:SM, or about on par with it; and then there's a couple of things, like the Leviathan, that are fantastic.

 

This hold over from previous editions needs to die out...

 

Edit: and in the case of the Levi, while it was great before C:SM 2.0, it was the Doctrines, a few other buffs (Duty Eternal) and the plethora of Iron Hands buffs that have made it the monster it currently is.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Kallas

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Anybody who understands the game should realize ten Grav DevCents should normally nuke a Levi. Would you use the Grav strategem? Of course. Was there a CM close your? Of course. RG gets +1 to hit and wound characters. The buffed IH Levi is too resilient in its current form.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Allow me to rephrase. "FW with IH rules is OP."

 

If Relic Contemptors and Leviathans and Deredeos with atomantic pavise, in combination with IH rules, are breaking the game...but regular from-the-codex Dreadnoughts are *not*...then the problem isn't the IH rules, it's with the FW models. March of the Ancients on an Ironclad or Ironstone+Duty Eternal on a Redemptor aren't complaint worthy, right?

 

So don't nerf the Chapter, nerf the models OR change the interactions that cause the breakage. Frex, you can't use the Fire Frenzy strat on a Helforged Contemptor because it doesn't target a HELBRUTE. It just targets a Helbrute.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Iron Father Ferrum

[Kallas]

Allow me to rephrase. "FW with IH rules is OP."

 

If Relic Contemptors and Leviathans and Deredeos with atomantic pavise, in combination with IH rules, are breaking the game...but regular from-the-codex Dreadnoughts are *not*...then the problem isn't the IH rules, it's with the FW models. March of the Ancients on an Ironclad or Ironstone+Duty Eternal on a Redemptor aren't complaint worthy, right?

 

Well the obvious comparison is: are those FW models broken with the other Supplements? If yes, then yeah, there's an issue with FW; if no, then there's just an issue with IH.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s also being able to pass off wounds to Intercessors with 5++ FNP.

[emperorpants]

What about perhaps changing how the iron stone and cogitated work by making them only work for models with 9 wounds or less?  

 

The issue is obviously with the IH rules imo.  The levi in every other chapter is fine, it's only op in iron hands.  I don't want huge nerfs to IH, but perhaps some minor things like I mentioned above to help balance things a bit.  However, I think we all know that GW is likely just going to nerf the unit into oblivion and punish all chapters because of the IH, which is quite unfair.  That is just how GW rolls it seems.  Once the levi gets nerfed people will move on to the next toughest unit and do the same thing in all likelihood.  Nerfing the levi itself is treating the symptom, not the cause.

[SkimaskMohawk]

If the leviathan couldn't use duty eternal, you'd have a simply quite durable unit. Taking away it's ability to be a character would prevent the cogitated martyrdom shenanigans.

 

Obviously, we should expect a lot of changes on the whole for forgeworld units. I'd expect leviathans and contemptors to be hit with a nerf or two.

[MrZakalwe]

It’s also being able to pass off wounds to Intercessors with 5++ FNP.

 

That's actually the problem - Ironhands character Leviathans using a strat to pass off wounds. Outside of IH the Levi is pretty good but not amazing (for reference I don't own one but I play against them quite a bit as Astra Militarum). 

 

Edit: the other problem with them is also Ironhands- being able to retreat and still shoot the bugger makes melee tagging ineffective and that's normally how you negate them as guard these days.

Edited January 28, 2020 by MrZakalwe

[Gederas]

It’s also being able to pass off wounds to Intercessors with 5++ FNP.

That's actually the problem - Ironhands character Leviathans using a strat to pass off wounds. Outside of IH the Levi is pretty good but not amazing (for reference I don't own one but I play against them quite a bit as Astra Militarum).

Pretty much this. Leviathans aren't OP. It's the Iron Hands Supplement taking a decent unit and breaking it by putting ridiculous buffs on it.

 

Allow me to rephrase. "FW with IH rules is OP."

 

If Relic Contemptors and Leviathans and Deredeos with atomantic pavise, in combination with IH rules, are breaking the game...but regular from-the-codex Dreadnoughts are *not*...then the problem isn't the IH rules, it's with the FW models. March of the Ancients on an Ironclad or Ironstone+Duty Eternal on a Redemptor aren't complaint worthy, right?

Well the obvious comparison is: are those FW models broken with the other Supplements? If yes, then yeah, there's an issue with FW; if no, then there's just an issue with IH.

And the answer: No, they aren't. The only time they come close is, say, Raven Guard with the minus to hit and character sniping bonuses.

 

Allow me to rephrase. "FW with IH rules is OP."

Fixed that for you. Look, I understand that you're biased in the favour of Iron Hands, but it was VERY MUCH AGREED that the Iron Hands rules were beyond broken at release. And they're still really, really strong. That's the issue here.

 

The Leviathan is a well-balanced unit. Not particularly overpowered, but not weak. Middle of the road if you will. The Iron Hands supplement take that well-balanced unit, and stacks more and more buffs on it and the game's balance stretches to near-breaking to accommodate the Iron Hand Dreadnought's evil girth.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Gederas

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s the Levi with IH buffs together that’s the problem. This is because of the stats for the chassis... T8 2+ Sv 14 wounds

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm actually not biased because I don't use all these broken units or combos. I don't own any FW Dreadnoughts and I don't use Primaris either. I understand that my Chapter's rules are strong, even the strongest. I'm a fan, not an idiot.

 

My point is this: if you strip away what makes a strat like Duty Eternal awesome on a Levi without considering its effect on regular box-naughts, you're not just toning down the Levi - you could be killing the utility of the box-naughts. In GT play you don't see these much, I get that, but GTs represent a very very small minority of the total number of 40K games played each year. Kill Duty Eternal to rein in the GT crowd's Levi and you might kill the Venerable or Ironclad that Joe Shmoe uses every Saturday at his LGS.

 

That's why I'm advocating to change the interactions between model and rules instead of just nerfing the rule. Duty Eternal becomes once per game? Bad change. Duty Eternal becomes 3CP? Bad change. Duty Eternal cannot target Leviathans? I'm okay with this. You fix a problem without stomping on Redemptors or Contemptors.

 

Honestly, I would make a blanket change that codex strats can only be used in units from the codex. You know...the one's that their supposedly balanced with and arguably are intended to affect.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Iron Father Ferrum

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I doubt they ever considered the interaction with the Levi tbh .

[Hymnblade]

 

 

The most obvious nerf is to remove access to duty eternal. The thing is already beefy with a high toughness value, armour and invul; it doesn't require any more help surviving.

 

It also fits the fluff as the occupants burn out fast and certainly aren't around eternally.

A more conservative option would be to raise it to 2CP for Leviathans. The strat was is already quite good for the Codex dreadnoughts, mostly t7 with a 3+ and no invul save. It's much stronger when layered on top of T8/2+/4++, not to mention various IH stuff.

As tournament lists with Castellans have shown - no one cares about an additional CP, if it's your game-winning unit. Spend more in the first rounds, kill everything that's a threat, run out of CP when the largest threats are vaporized. Removing access to it entirely, preventing it to stack with each other (evening out the field with other chapters), or changing it to levels that really restrict it (3-4 CP, depending on Power Level of the unit), seem the only solution.

Sure, 3CP is also a possibility.

 

Duty Eternal becomes once per game? Bad change. Duty Eternal becomes 3CP? Bad change. Duty Eternal cannot target Leviathans? I'm okay with this.

...maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think anyone has actually proposed a change that affects non-Leviathan dreadnoughts. My own suggestion above was to raise the CP cost for Leviathans, just like Veteran Intercessors costs more on a big squad than a small squad. Before that, SkimaskMohawk suggested the same thing you say you're okay with.

[emperorpants]

Couldn't they also just change duty eternal to read that it doesn't stack with other ways to reduce damage?

[Hantheman]

I mean this can just be reduced to IH are busted. And LVO proved that. (And 3 damage storm cannons vs vehicles for Fists is filth too)

 

Nerf the chapters and then review it.

[Gederas]

I mean this can just be reduced to IH are busted. And LVO proved that. (And 3 damage storm cannons vs vehicles for Fists is filth too)

 

Nerf the chapters and then review it.

Again, this. It's not the Leviathans/Forge World Units, it's the codex supplements.

 

[Claws and Effect]

The Leviathan itself is not overpowered.

 

Iron Hands Leviathans are.

 

I play Raven Guard and very frequently run a twin grav flux Leviathan. It is quite easily nullified by just tar pitting it. It only has 3 attacks the way it is equipped, throw a big unit of something at it and it can't possibly kill the whole unit. Which means it's either out of the fight or I'm forced to spend 2 CP on a strat to let it fall back and shoot.

 

Don't confuse it being really strong for one Chapter with being overpowered as a unit.

 

Not going to quote it, but wanted to point out that Raven Guard don't get the -1 to hit on vehicles. It's no stronger for us than anyone else.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Claws and Effect

[MegaVolt87]

FW units really need a de-coupling of codex strats in general to prevent things like this. Ideally FW units should have different strats that are 2-3 CP that don't interact with codex entries to balance strats with FW units. FW preads and dreads are de-coupled from things like kill shot and the CSM dread strats for instance, so its doable now, without even developing new uniqe strats for FW units. 

[Dracos]

I see different opinion and anecdotal stories. Maybe someone can access some data from Best Coast Parings on the Levi usage and its success rate with various Chapters? He said, he said isn't really productively furthering the discussion.

[Claws and Effect]

I see different opinion and anecdotal stories. Maybe someone can access some data from Best Coast Parings on the Levi usage and its success rate with various Chapters? He said, he said isn't really productively furthering the discussion.

Not really necessary IMO.

 

It's a solid unit for everyone, and it's points cost reflects that. It's a Dreadnaught that costs in the same ballpark as a Repulsor Executioner, and more than a Land Raider. It's not THAT much tougher than a Relic Contemptor while being 50% more expensive.

 

For what it is, it is fairly costed at the moment. But one particular Chapter has Strategems that makes it way better than it's points cost and statline would indicate.

 

You'll probably find them in a good number of lists from other Chapters, but probably in just about every Iron Hands list.

 

I don't think a nerf to the Leviathan as a whole is justified, but I wouldn't put it past GW to make just such a draconian move. I expect a points increase at bare minimum.

 

They already altered the rules on Stormravens to make it so they can't transport them. It was really aimed at the Redemptor, but it includes the Leviathan as well.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Claws and Effect

[Kallas]

You'll probably find them in a good number of lists from other Chapters, but probably in just about every Iron Hands list.

With the (completely necessary) nerf to the Ironstone, I'm not surprised that IH Leviathans are on the rise. Even with the repair nerfs it can still soak an ungodly amount of firepower and then get repaired for 4W, which is functionally about 8-12W depending on the kind of anti tank weapons needed/being used to try and bring it down.

 

+++++

 

It is the combination of:

* Good base stats/weapons at a reasonable cost

* Duty Eternal (half damage)

* Flesh Is Weak (6+++, slower degradation, and better overwatch) and Calculated Fury (no Heavy movement penalty, and rerolls)

* March of the Ancients (IH character Dread strat) to enable giving a 5+++ IH Warlord Trait

* Ironstone IH Relic (one vehicle in 3" reduces damage by 1) plus the supporting character (probably a Techmarine/Master of the Forge, though MotF is possibly overkill)

* Cogitated Martyrdom (Infantry unit can tank wounds for a character, in this case the Leviathan)

 

How many of those things are core Codex: Space Marines/FW? Oh, just two. The truly ridiculous combinations come from purely the Iron Hands supplement. I can take an Ultramarines Leviathan and it'll be a solid 330ish point investment but it'll die - tougher than a Land Raider, sure, but it can be killed. Not an IH Leviathan.

 

The problem is clearly stacking a huge amount of defensive buffs onto a tough base. That's not the fault of FW (and let's remember, the FW models' rules are written by the GW team anyway) or of the other Supplements; this is still an Iron Hands problem.

 

The least drastic move would be to Errata some stratagems to not work with Relic units: March of the Ancients would stop it getting a Warlord Trait (for the 5+++), and Duty Eternal (having incoming damage). Immediately, it becomes a lot more killable, but we've already nerfed non-IH dreads if we hit Duty Eternal. Cogitated Martyrdom absolutely needs to not function with Vehicle models (while it's now Legends and generally too expensive anyway, they'd be able to tank wounds for a Land Raider Excelsior... It just doesn't make any kind of narrative sense for them to clamber up on a tank/dreadnought to stop it being shot).

 

Point being, there are a few ways to actually reduce this monstrosity's power without impacting other Chapters too much, and without crippling the Iron Hands.

[antique_nova]

 

 

The most obvious nerf is to remove access to duty eternal. The thing is already beefy with a high toughness value, armour and invul; it doesn't require any more help surviving.

It also fits the fluff as the occupants burn out fast and certainly aren't around eternally.

A more conservative option would be to raise it to 2CP for Leviathans. The strat was is already quite good for the Codex dreadnoughts, mostly t7 with a 3+ and no invul save. It's much stronger when layered on top of T8/2+/4++, not to mention various IH stuff.

I think this is the best option. A solid compromise without breaking a unit.

 

Iron Hands notwithstanding...

 

 

Actually, why not just remove the dreadnought keyword? It the lore is anything to go by and from how they capped the scorpius whirlwinds. They should remove the dreadnought keyword from the relic dread. In fact, make it even better, relic units cannot be affected by stratagems in any shape or form, except the relic stratagem in the forgeworld book. I must give credit to Kallas above me for suggesting this idea, which I think is brilliant. So GWS doesn't have to look stupid against for removing a keyword from a unit, when it's in the unit's name too. Issue solved so Iron Hands can no longer abuse it, because that Levi has enough IF buffs to tank enough firepower to take out 3 imperial knights, which is over 1000 pts minimum. That shouldn't be even possible. I did the math with 5 scorpius whirlwinds with BS2, captain and lieutenant rerolls for Imperial Fists. 5 scorpius whirlwinds fully buffed with one having tank hunters all targetting that dreadnought will cause 20 mortal wounds, killing that 10 man intercessor unit who are taking hits for it and then 5 damage wounds will go through to the dreadnought. Just let that sink in for a moment. 5x Scorpius whirlwinds (I know it's not legal, but for demonstrations sake) is 1075pts, not including a techmarine and captain.

 

That dreadnought can then recover 6 wounds in the next turn from Feirros. In other words, it's been fully repaired. I know you can shoot the intercessors first, but this example is just to show you how much the IH can abuse the levi dread with their stuff. It's beyond absurd.

 

The same 5 buffed scorpius will deal a total of 39 damage wounds on average to two knights who are T8 and have an invul save of +4. They have no healing too. A IH levi dreadnought can just lose 170 pts worth of support. That's it.

 

 

The fact that it's T8 with 14 wounds and 2+/ ++4 invul should be more than enough of a trade to not use the eternal duty stratagem.

Edited January 30, 2020 by antique_nova

[Subtleknife]

Hang on why punish other supplements because the iron hands ome makes it OP. That is a dangerous precedent to set and unfair on the other supplements.

[Closet Skeleton]

The problem is clearly stacking a huge amount of defensive buffs onto a tough base. That's not the fault of FW (and let's remember, the FW models' rules are written by the GW team anyway) or of the other Supplements; this is still an Iron Hands problem.

 

 

Its the fault of Forgeworld in that Forgeworld expands the options available and makes the game harder to balance. The Leviathan isn't over-powered because of the units rules as written but because there were various interacting buffs that the Leviathan just happened to fall closest to the intersection of.

 

The games points system is based on the assumption that multiple weak things can be equal in value to powerful things.

 

Abilities limited to one use per turn get a bigger multiplication effect the more powerful their target and therefore in one sense break the points system. The Iron Stone needed nerfing but the drawback of that nerf is that it made the big super units even more viable than massed weaker dreadnoughts.