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IW Listbuilding Discussion


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#1
Indefragable

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Since the Iron Within, Iron Without thread was logged, I figured we could use a "catch all" thread to put things that maybe do not deserve their own thread in the main page. 

 

Case in point:

Would love any critiques or criticisms on some list ideas I have here

 

...didn't want to make a post being like "hey! Look at me and my list!" since there's already the List building subforum.....yet since that's all the Chaos SM together, I also want to call some specific attention to it from my fellow IV Legionnaries.

What else is going on with the sons of Perturabo this day? 


Edited by Indefragable, 05 February 2020 - 03:45 AM.

Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

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#2
MegaVolt87

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Instead of a general catch all thread, maybe this one should be a consolidated thread for IW lists instead. We have a forum (for now) lets use it. 


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#3
Dhar'Neth

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So what is your general feel about IW lists? Are they much different from other legions? Do we do anything better?

#4
MegaVolt87

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So what is your general feel about IW lists? Are they much different from other legions? Do we do anything better?

 

Vehicles, oblits, cultist screens for DS units, havocs + dev battery are standouts for IW's. The methodical annihilation strat is great for fixing dmg and shots on weapons without a fixed stat.

 

Though I meant that maybe a dedicated topic where people could post their lists, so they are in one spot because CSM list section is pretty dead + talk about IW lists generally. Everything else could just be a seperate post in the forum. 


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#5
Indefragable

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IW are the "shooty" ones on the CSM team these days. Other Legions may have some benefits to shooting as well, but I think we do it the best overall. Disclaimer: I haven't poured through all the new Faith and Fury stuff in detail other than our IW stuff.

The Ignores Cover ability I think has only become more and more useful as time has gone on. It is not the most obvious one, but especially with world-burner forces like Raven Guard right now, it really makes up some ground. I also find it absolutely punishing against light units: Scouts, Guardsmen, Cultists, etc.... I feel like I'm effortlessly swatting away flies as I clear the way to target heavier enemies. Even using a "bad" unit like Chaos Space Marines squads I feel like I've decimated enemy light infantry with "free" bolter pop shots at targets of opportunity: maybe it's because BA are my main force, but I often "John Woo" and shoot enemy A while charging enemy B so as not to reduce my charge range. Maybe I have just been very lucky, but I feel like my CSM have done some serious work that way.

I will reiterate what @MegaVolt87 said, with emphasis on Obliterators, Cultists, and Havocs. I think we have some pretty darn good WLT’s and Strats overall.

Hidden Content


Where I think some of IW’a current hidden benefit comes from is the ability to do multiples of the same thing. Like FNP: you can have 5+ on your WL, while still casting Delightful Agonies on unit B, and then still pop IWIW on unit C. Likewise, you could run Bastion on your WL to reduce enemy AP on nearby units, then either double-dip with Dour Duty or throw DD on a different unit to spread the love. Spamming Cultists? You can either take the classic Cold and Bitter WLT or run Cult of the Damned.

We have a lot of synergy and options, and I am still wading my way grouch it all, finding synergies I like. Heck, even Spitespitter as a Relic is amazing anti-Primaris tool.

I think we're solidly mid-tier with the ability to do deceptively well in the right hands, but we outright are not going to win simply by showing up.



TBH--somewhat ironically--the hardest enemy I've ever faced as IW is Deathwatch. Their 3++ shields buried everywhere was tough to overcome and my opponent's ability to focus fire down different FOCS really made a dent. He was able to calmly walk up the board shooting me to shreds while also easily repelling my melee forces. Honestly, the biggest saving grace for me in that matchup was his low model and unit count...it was hard to kill a unit but every one I did really hurt his maneuverability and the net eventually closed, though if the game had gone on longer he might have been able to win through attrition. It will be interesting to see what Deathwatch gets in the Psychic Awakening saga.

Edited by Indefragable, 03 February 2020 - 08:00 PM.

Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

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#6
MegaVolt87

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I haven't seen much talk about the dev battery castle with death hex + presiance sorc, havocs and nocto crown, especially with the pts cut in CA19 making crown cheaper than a 5++ bubble DA. It looks sound on paper. 


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#7
Iron_Within

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Big competitive Meta lists orientate around Possessed Bombs atm from Word Bearers and Alpha Legion and a bit of World Eater Triple Lord of Skulls. Iron Warriors lists are strongest around certain lists which are concentrated in Heavy Support.

 

"Classic Shooty army", this orientates around Havocs and/Obliterators, I tend to take both. The IW strats and WL traits can make some units devastating.

In a recent game against Iron Hands (Master artisans and Stalwart) I cleared off his castle of triple Devastators with a single round of Chain Havoc Shooting, I deployed them from a Rhino, then Warp Timed them into 24" range (which the Lord was already there) and stuck prescience on. The Seige Master WL trait meant they were hitting on 2's rerolling 1's, wounding on 3's rerolling 1's. killed all the devastators and killed a tactical unit as well, over a 20 marines in a single round of shooting and seige master made the difference. 

Obliterators are reliable in IW lists rather than swingy.

 

I generally stick my Chain Cannon Havocs in Rhinos with 5 man CSM units, jumping them out and blazing murder at someone at the right moment.

 

The other army is the "Daemon Forge list". This is basically crud load of Daemon engines with triple Lord Discordant. This can also be the big boy lord of Skulls as they can heal over 11 wounds a turn if Iron Warriors and get -1 to hit and 6+ FNP with Iron Within Iron Without.


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“From Iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron. This is the Unbreakable Litany. And may it forever be so."

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#8
Brother Tyler

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No, we're killing the "catch all" threads. They are not conducive to discussion.

The Chaos Space Marine forum general topics have been killed and the others around the site will soon follow. A more detailed explanation is in the works. Suffice to say that general "discussions" are terrible for constructive discussion.

Changing this one to a general list-building discussion works fine.
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#9
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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Big competitive Meta lists orientate around Possessed Bombs atm from Word Bearers and Alpha Legion and a bit of World Eater Triple Lord of Skulls. Iron Warriors lists are strongest around certain lists which are concentrated in Heavy Support.

 

"Classic Shooty army", this orientates around Havocs and/Obliterators, I tend to take both. The IW strats and WL traits can make some units devastating.

In a recent game against Iron Hands (Master artisans and Stalwart) I cleared off his castle of triple Devastators with a single round of Chain Havoc Shooting, I deployed them from a Rhino, then Warp Timed them into 24" range (which the Lord was already there) and stuck prescience on. The Seige Master WL trait meant they were hitting on 2's rerolling 1's, wounding on 3's rerolling 1's. killed all the devastators and killed a tactical unit as well, over a 20 marines in a single round of shooting and seige master made the difference. 

Obliterators are reliable in IW lists rather than swingy.

 

I generally stick my Chain Cannon Havocs in Rhinos with 5 man CSM units, jumping them out and blazing murder at someone at the right moment.

 

The other army is the "Daemon Forge list". This is basically crud load of Daemon engines with triple Lord Discordant. This can also be the big boy lord of Skulls as they can heal over 11 wounds a turn if Iron Warriors and get -1 to hit and 6+ FNP with Iron Within Iron Without.

There's also a really nasty build I appear to have found with a Nurgle Insidium Terminator Lord w/Daemonsmith, 1 Nurgle Lord Discordant w/ the Exoskeleton, a Nurgle Master of Possession, a Nurgle Warpsmith, and 3 Lords of Skulls (2x Ichor Cannon/Hades, 1x Ichor Cannon/Skulhurler for cheapness and high Str). There's still room for 4x10 Cultists and 2x5 Marines for a Double Battalion + Superheavy at 2000pts. In the test-rolling I've done the LOS with just Daemonsmith, the Disco Lord bonus, and reroll 1's from the Lord are pretty crazy. Then you add Cursed Earth and Infernal Power if they succeed, plus Methodical Annihilation on the Skullhurler guy (which will affect both his guns).

 

This build has 16CP (2x5 + 3 +3)

 

The Insidium Lord will be T5, 7 wounds and can use Grandfather's Blessings to regen if not killed immediately and will benefit from Cursed Earth. He'll also be hiding behind 3 Lords of Skulls, so attacks should be limited to those that don't require LOS. Lord Discordant will likewise benefit and will regen 2 wounds per round. Lord Discordant should be able to do SOME hiding as well, but his survival will depend on regen + the threat overload of the 3 LOS plus the other attractive targets in the Lord and MoP.

 

All of the major components in the army can regen with Unholy Vigour or Grandfather's Blessings, use Dour Duty to reduce AP, or Iron Without/Iron Within to shrug wounds. Master of Possession can use Chaos Familiar to drop Smite for Warp Time or Miasma if necessary to launch one LOS forward or protect another character, but honestly, the list should just steamroll forward at 8-10 inches per turn shooting everything. Since Daemonsmith works in CC too, charging it could be suicide if the Lord is alive. The possibility exists to swap for Sacrifice to speed up healing too.

 

4x10 Cultists and 2x5 Marines hug cover, block flanking charge lanes and/or grab objectives.

 

Not saying it WILL succeed, but test rolling has been NUTS.


Edited by GreaterChickenofTzeentch, 05 February 2020 - 05:50 PM.

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#10
MegaVolt87

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Cultists with the bubble deredeo dreads look solid for us now to setup deep strikers. Deredeo is looking to be our star FW dread over the others.
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#11
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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Example from battle-report.com of tripe LOS/Daemonsmith list in action at LVO (not by me-slightly different than what I wrote up).

https://www.battle-r...he-marine-meta/



#12
MegaVolt87

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Example from battle-report.com of tripe LOS/Daemonsmith list in action at LVO (not by me-slightly different than what I wrote up).

https://www.battle-r...he-marine-meta/

 

Nice write up, surprised to see LOS working out. I don't mind the stats but I can't stand the model personally. 


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#13
Vorroth

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Problem is codex options need a huge rework. Predators are outclassed by loyalist executioners, IW don't get basilisks, or good tanks. Literally yes I know oblits are IW thing but so are tanks and artillery. 

 

Lore wise relic dreadnoughts like leviathans are extremely rare, even amongst the iron warriors. I feel like IW has great rules in a codex that has terrible vehicles. 

Not to mention havocs - NOBODY uses them in competitive play. 1 wound? Come on. The amount of firepower centurions or aggressors is inSANE compared to what havocs put out. 

 

Daemon Engines -> these are an IW thing too but not all encompassing. Most Daemon Engines are terrible at shooting which is what iron warriors are supposed to eb good at. 


Edited by Vorroth, 18 February 2020 - 03:12 AM.


#14
MegaVolt87

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Problem is codex options need a huge rework. Predators are outclassed by loyalist executioners, IW don't get basilisks, or good tanks. Literally yes I know oblits are IW thing but so are tanks and artillery. 

 

Lore wise relic dreadnoughts like leviathans are extremely rare, even amongst the iron warriors. I feel like IW has great rules in a codex that has terrible vehicles. 

Not to mention havocs - NOBODY uses them in competitive play. 1 wound? Come on. The amount of firepower centurions or aggressors is inSANE compared to what havocs put out. 

 

Daemon Engines -> these are an IW thing too but not all encompassing. Most Daemon Engines are terrible at shooting which is what iron warriors are supposed to eb good at. 

 

Yeah the executioner is an amazing vehicle, it feels like A FW unit. I would definitely run 2-3 in a SM list if I played them. Either we need saturation with cheaper amour + havocs, or focus with our more elite vehicles to compensate. I don't think legion stuff is more at a premium with us than other legions post HH honestly. We are more builders/ maintainers + stockpilers. Plus Perty, RG and Dorn are logistics nerds, and hammered that into their sons. 


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#15
BrainFireBob

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Anyone seeing any value in what the Blood Angels frater do, and doing a "Unit of the Week" discussion from a IW standpoint? 

 

Problem with Chaos, IMNSHO, is running out of purchasing budget- IW are good with Oblits, Havocs, Daemon Engines, and Tanks, if they have some CP to spend. Getting all of those in a list is not really affordable, so you have to kind of pick your poison.

 

Agree that codex tanks don't cut it anymore- either not enough guns for the cost (LR) or not survivable enough for what they bring (Vindies and Preds). 

 

Not really having a strat for extra WL traits, aside from formation traits, hurts. Siege Master, to make a Lord a Captain+Lieutenant, I find myself using as an auto-take, just because re-rolls to wound are so hard to come by. 

 

Daemon Engines just need so much investment to really work. 

 

I find myself doing a lot of theorycrafting with Legion soup. 

 

EDIT: I confess, I also have SMs, but I find myself hoping that if/when that line goes all Primaris, GW finally gives CSM more LRs, landspeeders, razorbacks, etc. 


Edited by BrainFireBob, 19 February 2020 - 03:53 AM.





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