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Ritual of the Damned, game experience what's working/not

Ritual of the Damned

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#51
oldmanlee

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Well, a player in my local store just got second place in a tournament there, with a list of nothing but landspeeders, talon masters, and sammael.
Only lost to a list of Emperor's Children which was 30 cultists, 20 noise marines, and 10 combi plasma terminators, led by a demon prince and a sorcerer.
That guy, incidently, won first place. His list was undefeated all throughout the tournament.
Seems like speeders are "where its at" if you want to win competitive games.


Happy days great to see dark Angels list doing well

#52
KJB

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Is Lazarus any good?  Or would you just run him as a generic primaris master?



#53
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Is Lazarus any good?  Or would you just run him as a generic primaris master?

If you tot up the points named characters are generally a bargain, your getting free relics without spending command points as well.

 

the spiritshield helm works on all units as a save if the units deathwing you can use the new banner on the ancient to give them a 5+5+ on mortal wounds

 

I tried Asmodai the other week and the 2nd litany in his pocket is gold + the extra attack for units round him

 

Your command points are always going to be tight and these 2 characters are a way of getting round it


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#54
SnakeChisler

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Well, a player in my local store just got second place in a tournament there, with a list of nothing but landspeeders, talon masters, and sammael.
Only lost to a list of Emperor's Children which was 30 cultists, 20 noise marines, and 10 combi plasma terminators, led by a demon prince and a sorcerer.
That guy, incidently, won first place. His list was undefeated all throughout the tournament.
Seems like speeders are "where its at" if you want to win competitive games.


Happy days great to see dark Angels list doing well

 

One of the things about speeders is they have the fly keyword and in nearly every Marine list are 3 thunderfire cannons, my Black Knights generally spend the entire game at half speed due to tremor shells when playing against my mates Ultra List


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#55
oldmanlee

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Well, a player in my local store just got second place in a tournament there, with a list of nothing but landspeeders, talon masters, and sammael.
Only lost to a list of Emperor's Children which was 30 cultists, 20 noise marines, and 10 combi plasma terminators, led by a demon prince and a sorcerer.
That guy, incidently, won first place. His list was undefeated all throughout the tournament.
Seems like speeders are "where its at" if you want to win competitive games.


Happy days great to see dark Angels list doing well
One of the things about speeders is they have the fly keyword and in nearly every Marine list are 3 thunderfire cannons, my Black Knights generally spend the entire game at half speed due to tremor shells when playing against my mates Ultra List

Yeah speeders are definitely a change up to the current meta you see
I like I myself as I'm a big fan of speeders myself ( I own close to 25)
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#56
farfromsam

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I'm see the merit of the typhoon speeder as a dual Anti tank and anti infantry unit, but I'm not quite sold on it when compared with black knights.

68 pts for 2 black knights, 87 for typhoon/HB speeder.

What am I missing in the equation? Is it a pure RW list thing as in you're already taking a full squad of RWBK and cant WotDA two units? Is it the desire to try and maximize the dev doctrine and impeccable movement WL bonuses? (Plasma already has a -3 ap) Or is it because speeders look so bad ass all lined up sending death down range and haven't been useable since 5th edition?

I want them to be good. (I have 9 painted HB/typhoon speeders from 5th.) But we have so many other good options that can scratch that itch. Educate me.

Edited by farfromsam, 10 February 2020 - 01:55 PM.


#57
SnakeChisler

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I'm see the merit of the typhoon speeder as a dual Anti tank and anti infantry unit, but I'm not quite sold on it when compared with black knights.

68 pts for 2 black knights, 87 for typhoon/HB speeder.

What am I missing in the equation? Is it a pure RW list thing as in you're already taking a full squad of RWBK and cant WotDA two units? Is it the desire to try and maximize the dev doctrine and impeccable movement WL bonuses? (Plasma already has a -3 ap) Or is it because speeders look so bad ass all lined up sending death down range and haven't been useable since 5th edition?

I want them to be good. (I have 9 painted HB/typhoon speeders from 5th.) But we have so many other good options that can scratch that itch. Educate me.

Its a combo thing

1 the added range lets you stay out of harms way

2 The change to traits lets them re-roll 1's if they don't move

3. A Talon Master with a Corvus Oculus is a good babysitter

4. + Neg 1 on Heavy weapons with ignores cover - ex against an infantry heavy army you can pop the frag rounds for 2 D6 shots and plow the road for your Black Knights, last game I focused on killing all the infantry before taking on vehicles thus depriving my opponent of scoring units so he had to move his vehicles to get any points.

5. 4++ strat on a large squad that stays still

 

With a squad of Black knights roaming around with another Talon Master + Sammael you've short/medium range it gives you options to control the board

 

The total cot for 10 bk + 4 Typhoons + 3 character speeders is only 1260 and 3 invcta tactical warsuits + 3 scout squads only bumps it up to 1837 you can put in some aggressors or similar


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#58
sneakybamsen

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Quad Mortar is better though.

Just not true. Quad mortars don't have the range or ignore LoS, so they don't quite fill the role.

 

 

Yes it does... maybe did you read just the Shatter Shells ? Because you get to choose your ammo when you shoot, that's what makes it better.

 

Rapier Carrier Quad Mortar Launcher 85pts

>>> Thunderfire Shells, 60'' range, Ignore Los

 

 

You are right, I am sorry. It does ignore LoS, puts out the same number of shots, but has slightly less range. The kicker is though, if you compare it to a whirlwind, you can burn a strat to shoot a whirlwind twice. If you have a speeder near your target, you can even make it auto hit with another strat (yup, we still have that in our codex, take that numariens). It's also tougher than a quad mortar, and in a primaris meta with flyers, s7 with D2 and solid AP is pretty sensible. The quad mortar cannot match that. Also, if the two marine gunners are removed, the mortar goes away too. The rapier carrier is FW, which does matter for some tournaments. I need to put mine together, though :)


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#59
mika_angelus

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On the other hand it's way easier to hide then a whirlwind. It has very good solid shoot mode especially with our +6" range and if the rapiers dies the crew still can only be shoot if they are the closest target which makes the very annoying for the opponent and great at holding backfield objectives.

Both have their merit.

#60
Solrac

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Quad Mortar is better though.

Just not true. Quad mortars don't have the range or ignore LoS, so they don't quite fill the role.

 

 

Yes it does... maybe did you read just the Shatter Shells ? Because you get to choose your ammo when you shoot, that's what makes it better.

 

Rapier Carrier Quad Mortar Launcher 85pts

>>> Thunderfire Shells, 60'' range, Ignore Los

 

 

You are right, I am sorry. It does ignore LoS, puts out the same number of shots, but has slightly less range. The kicker is though, if you compare it to a whirlwind, you can burn a strat to shoot a whirlwind twice. If you have a speeder near your target, you can even make it auto hit with another strat (yup, we still have that in our codex, take that numariens). It's also tougher than a quad mortar, and in a primaris meta with flyers, s7 with D2 and solid AP is pretty sensible. The quad mortar cannot match that. Also, if the two marine gunners are removed, the mortar goes away too. The rapier carrier is FW, which does matter for some tournaments. I need to put mine together, though smile.png

 

 

DA do not get access to the strat that allows your Whirlwind to shoot twice that's a Codex Space Marine's thing and we did not get it in PA4.

 

On the subject of Whirlwinds:

 

If you are regularly playing against codex marine armies the Relic Scorpius or Whirlwind with Vengeance Missiles is what you should take. You need the Damage 2 to kill primaris marines and Thunderfire Cannons won't kill your Whirlwind/s in one turn.

 

If you are regularly playing against anything else the Quad Mortar is hands down better than a Whirlwind with Castellan Missiles. It may cost 5 pts more but you get more reliable shots and its a lot easier to hide out of LOS than a Whirlwind.

 

The strat where you auto hit with the Whirlwind if there is a Speeder within 18 inches of the enemy isn't that great of a strat because you spend it before rolling how many shots the Whirlwind get's to fire and if you have a Speeder within 18 inches of an enemy you are basically sacrificing a Speeder for very little benefit.

 

On the subject of what's working post PA4:

 

I'm still testing lists but I think the way DA should play now is any type of denial list backed up by Sammael on Sableclaw and three Talonmasters. Denial lists where your primary objective is stopping your opponent from scoring points (and your list is also built to give your opponent as few points as possible) is better suited to what we have been given in this release. With the right durable screening units like Impulsors with Shield Domes you should comfortably be able to screen your Speeder characters to be able to shoot all 6 turns which is so much weight of fire that it makes up for any lack of anti armour you may have.



#61
G8Keeper

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DA do not get access to the strat that allows your Whirlwind to shoot twice that's a Codex Space Marine's thing and we did not get it in PA4.

 

On the subject of Whirlwinds:

 

If you are regularly playing against codex marine armies the Relic Scorpius or Whirlwind with Vengeance Missiles is what you should take. You need the Damage 2 to kill primaris marines and Thunderfire Cannons won't kill your Whirlwind/s in one turn.

 

If you are regularly playing against anything else the Quad Mortar is hands down better than a Whirlwind with Castellan Missiles. It may cost 5 pts more but you get more reliable shots and its a lot easier to hide out of LOS than a Whirlwind.

 

The strat where you auto hit with the Whirlwind if there is a Speeder within 18 inches of the enemy isn't that great of a strat because you spend it before rolling how many shots the Whirlwind get's to fire and if you have a Speeder within 18 inches of an enemy you are basically sacrificing a Speeder for very little benefit.

 

On the subject of what's working post PA4:

 

I'm still testing lists but I think the way DA should play now is any type of denial list backed up by Sammael on Sableclaw and three Talonmasters. Denial lists where your primary objective is stopping your opponent from scoring points (and your list is also built to give your opponent as few points as possible) is better suited to what we have been given in this release. With the right durable screening units like Impulsors with Shield Domes you should comfortably be able to screen your Speeder characters to be able to shoot all 6 turns which is so much weight of fire that it makes up for any lack of anti armour you may have.

 

 

Now I just need to figure out how to model 3 Talonmasters differently, although I'm only taking 2 for fluff reasons (if I ever get to a tournament).


Edited by G8Keeper, 12 February 2020 - 08:27 AM.

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#62
sneakybamsen

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Now, I am not saying talonmasters are not good, but I am struggling with seeing the benefit of two, let alone 3. Yes, they are T6 compared to regular speeders, and they are characters to boot, but they are also 188 pts a piece. 3 plus Sableclaw is 764 pts. That leaves 1236 for screening impulsors and the rest of your output/board control. It feels a little short to me.

 

If you have them though, I would love to hear how it turns out. But with the pace GW is cranking stuff out at these days, I wouldn't want to try to get even a second one, as before I will get around to painting it, I have a feeling 9th edition will already have arrived.


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#63
Solrac

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Now, I am not saying talonmasters are not good, but I am struggling with seeing the benefit of two, let alone 3. Yes, they are T6 compared to regular speeders, and they are characters to boot, but they are also 188 pts a piece. 3 plus Sableclaw is 764 pts. That leaves 1236 for screening impulsors and the rest of your output/board control. It feels a little short to me.

 

If you have them though, I would love to hear how it turns out. But with the pace GW is cranking stuff out at these days, I wouldn't want to try to get even a second one, as before I will get around to painting it, I have a feeling 9th edition will already have arrived.

 

Yes they are a big points investment but you are very much underestimating the Character rule here. Just so you can see what I'm talking about here is the list I'm playing around with:

 

Spoiler

 

So keep in mind this list is for ITC style games because that's the only thing I play. You can see there are not a lot of things that are easy kills so your opponent really needs to commit to get their kill for the turn.

 

The Intercessors ride in an Impulsor which will both be Engineers to get secondary points for capturing objectives out in the midfield.

 

The Darkshroud and other Impulsor are dedicated screeners for the Characters. The Darkshroud is still something I'm experimenting with because its basically as mobile and almost as durable as an  Impulsor anyway and while Marines don't care about -1 too much anymore not a lot of Marine opponents take Chapter Masters anymore and -1 to hit is still useful versus most other armies. 

 

The Infiltrators deploy as needed (either mid field out of LOS or backfield out of LOS depending on where you need them).

 

The Whirlwinds deploy separately in the backfield Grim Resolve now making them very independent.

 

The Inceptors are held to T2 or T3 to nuke a big threat and the Chaplain usually takes the +1 to hit litany to give the Inceptors the ability to not kill themselves and helping the character speeders shoot at flyers or do more damage against ground targets. The Techmarine is there as a cheap HQ and to help keep the Impulsors alive.

 

As you can see I can still fit in quite a bit with the rest of the points to support my speeder characters and the list isn't actually CP dependent.

 

So Sammael and 3 Talonmasters vs other things with the equivalent amount of firepower. The main reason I have gone for the full amount of speeder characters is to actually rely on the Character rule. When you are picking other choices with the equivalent amount of firepower for the same if not cheaper points (Nephilim and Land Speeder squads come to mind) they will be heavily CP reliant to be kept alive past 1 to 3 turns of play. Our offensive units are not durable enough to last longer than this.

 

The 16" move, utility and now increased range of the Character speeders means with the right play and strategy you can keep them alive at least 4+ turns. As you can see I am happy to pay the extra 45pts for a model that can stay alive 4+ turns than spend less points to budget for having up to 3 turns of play for an equivalent firepower unit. You are also dictating what your opponent shoots at. He can't shoot at the units doing all the damage and has to waste turns killing everything else first to have a chance at having a go at your speeders.

 

Also keeping the characters safe for later game is another factor. Just like Richard Siegler was doing with his Tau, he would take 3 battlesuit commanders and not do anything with them for 3 or 4 turns. Literally standing next to drones not even shooting. Late game they would come out and start assassinating and cleaning up units and his opponent was so diminished he couldn't really kill them anymore. The difference here is that speeder characters have the reliable shooting and manoeuvrability to do damage throughout the game and be effective late game when you need them.

 

No this is not the perfect list. No this list is not going to be the next LVO or supermajor GT winner. This list however does have the right play style to try and keep up with the current marine meta and be competitive enough to win games. On average a single character speeder kills 4 Primaris equivalents and 2.5 Iron Hand Primaris equivalents and you have 4 of them. Killing a marine armies board control and an Iron Hands unit for Cogitated Martyrdom is how you have a chance at being competitive in the marine meta.


Edited by Solrac, 12 February 2020 - 11:33 PM.

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#64
jaxom

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I don't have a lot to add because I'm using all older units and I don't really like Ravenwing units. Here's my general takeaway from the games I've gotten in with Dark Angels since RoTD came out.

 

  • Deathwing were where most of my CP went when I used them (one squad of ten combat squaded into a "normal" squad with two assault cannons and a close combat squad plus one squad of five with an assault cannon). They put out a ton of fire power from turn one, but I was using the +1T and Transhuman Physiology to keep them alive.
  • Fury of the Lion almost makes lightning claws worthwhile.
  • A Librarian with Righteous Repugnance combined with the output of Shock Assault can make even a basic unit a nasty close combat surprise.
  • A Chaplain with Stoic Prosecution combined with a Lieutenant can easily affect up to four squads. This makes for a nasty fire base (mine was usually a devastator squad, two tactical squads, and one or two of the ranged terminator squads). If one moves it with intent then it is also surprisingly mobile in the ground it can cover over three turns.
  • Said fire base's deployment was usually the make or break of battle round 1.

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#65
G8Keeper

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See, I'm just so spoilt for choice now.  I haven't had chance for a game yet but I'm organising my mates stag at warhammer world in March so have the potential for 4 or 5 games then. What the fudge do I take!?


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#66
SnakeChisler

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Now, I am not saying talonmasters are not good, but I am struggling with seeing the benefit of two, let alone 3. Yes, they are T6 compared to regular speeders, and they are characters to boot, but they are also 188 pts a piece. 3 plus Sableclaw is 764 pts. That leaves 1236 for screening impulsors and the rest of your output/board control. It feels a little short to me.

 

If you have them though, I would love to hear how it turns out. But with the pace GW is cranking stuff out at these days, I wouldn't want to try to get even a second one, as before I will get around to painting it, I have a feeling 9th edition will already have arrived.

 

Yes they are a big points investment but you are very much underestimating the Character rule here. Just so you can see what I'm talking about here is the list I'm playing around with:

 

 

The 16" move, utility and now increased range of the Character speeders means with the right play and strategy you can keep them alive at least 4+ turns. As you can see I am happy to pay the extra 45pts for a model that can stay alive 4+ turns than spend less points to budget for having up to 3 turns of play for an equivalent firepower unit. You are also dictating what your opponent shoots at. He can't shoot at the units doing all the damage and has to waste turns killing everything else first to have a chance at having a go at your speeders.

 

Also keeping the characters safe for later game is another factor. Just like Richard Siegler was doing with his Tau, he would take 3 battlesuit commanders and not do anything with them for 3 or 4 turns. Literally standing next to drones not even shooting. Late game they would come out and start assassinating and cleaning up units and his opponent was so diminished he couldn't really kill them anymore. The difference here is that speeder characters have the reliable shooting and manoeuvrability to do damage throughout the game and be effective late game when you need them.

 

No this is not the perfect list. No this list is not going to be the next LVO or supermajor GT winner. This list however does have the right play style to try and keep up with the current marine meta and be competitive enough to win games. On average a single character speeder kills 4 Primaris equivalents and 2.5 Iron Hand Primaris equivalents and you have 4 of them. Killing a marine armies board control and an Iron Hands unit for Cogitated Martyrdom is how you have a chance at being competitive in the marine meta.

 

Before the book dropped someone in ITC was having decent success with a command detachment Sam + Talons and was a guard player using Bulgrins with buffs as a midfield screen

 

https://www.frontlin...tarum-strategy/

 

I guess you could screen in a similar way with Deathwing Knights and an ancient?



#67
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Before the book dropped someone in ITC was having decent success with a command detachment Sam + Talons and was a guard player using Bulgrins with buffs as a midfield screen

 

 

https://www.frontlin...tarum-strategy/

 

I guess you could screen in a similar way with Deathwing Knights and an ancient?

 

 

Yep Adam is a great player and being an Aussie I've met him multiple times. He really is dialled in to competitive play and the inspiration for my list as I want to remain pure Dark Angels. The beauty about this is he was doing it with success before the book came out. Now PA has dialled those specific units up to 11 with all the buffs that give them more benefits (extra range, extra AP, moving and shooting without penalty etc etc).

 

I also have a Deathwing Knight Bomb list in the works and even that one Includes Sammael and 3 Talonmasters. The reliable shooting that can  damage your opponent and not got shot at in return is such a massive advantage. Again, yes the character speeders are expensive but if you practice enough with the list and learn how to play them always keeping them protected by the Character rule then those points become a massive investment because they are likely to stay alive the whole game.


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#68
ValourousHeart

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Well, a player in my local store just got second place in a tournament there, with a list of nothing but landspeeders, talon masters, and sammael.

Only lost to a list of Emperor's Children which was 30 cultists, 20 noise marines, and 10 combi plasma terminators, led by a demon prince and a sorcerer.

That guy, incidently, won first place. His list was undefeated all throughout the tournament.

EDIT: Seems like speeders are "where its at" if you want to win competitive games. But emperor's children with 20 noise marines will still riff you out of the sky.

 

That is interesting that the that would be the list that he would struggle against.  I know that my speeders struggle vs Ork Hoards and Mortal Wound spam.  But that list just doesn't seem to have enough bodies to raise any concerns.  Do you know if there is a battle report posted about the game?

 

Now, I am not saying talonmasters are not good, but I am struggling with seeing the benefit of two, let alone 3. Yes, they are T6 compared to regular speeders, and they are characters to boot, but they are also 188 pts a piece. 3 plus Sableclaw is 764 pts. That leaves 1236 for screening impulsors and the rest of your output/board control. It feels a little short to me.

 

If you have them though, I would love to hear how it turns out. But with the pace GW is cranking stuff out at these days, I wouldn't want to try to get even a second one, as before I will get around to painting it, I have a feeling 9th edition will already have arrived.

 

I agree the bonuses the Talonmaster brings are great, and I almost always take 1.  Only time I would leave him behind is in 1k games because I feel that Sableclaw has better advantages (or at least did prior to the Occulus relic).

 

But beyond the first Talonmaster the math doesn't make sense for the 2nd or 3rd one.  The argument seems to be that the character rule is more valuable than 2x wounds and 3 extra heavy bolters.

 

Yes they are a big points investment but you are very much underestimating the Character rule here. Just so you can see what I'm talking about here is the list I'm playing around with:

 

So keep in mind this list is for ITC style games because that's the only thing I play. You can see there are not a lot of things that are easy kills so your opponent really needs to commit to get their kill for the turn.

 

So Sammael and 3 Talonmasters vs other things with the equivalent amount of firepower. The main reason I have gone for the full amount of speeder characters is to actually rely on the Character rule. When you are picking other choices with the equivalent amount of firepower for the same if not cheaper points (Nephilim and Land Speeder squads come to mind) they will be heavily CP reliant to be kept alive past 1 to 3 turns of play. Our offensive units are not durable enough to last longer than this.

 

The 16" move, utility and now increased range of the Character speeders means with the right play and strategy you can keep them alive at least 4+ turns. As you can see I am happy to pay the extra 45pts for a model that can stay alive 4+ turns than spend less points to budget for having up to 3 turns of play for an equivalent firepower unit. You are also dictating what your opponent shoots at. He can't shoot at the units doing all the damage and has to waste turns killing everything else first to have a chance at having a go at your speeders.

 

Also keeping the characters safe for later game is another factor. Just like Richard Siegler was doing with his Tau, he would take 3 battlesuit commanders and not do anything with them for 3 or 4 turns. Literally standing next to drones not even shooting. Late game they would come out and start assassinating and cleaning up units and his opponent was so diminished he couldn't really kill them anymore. The difference here is that speeder characters have the reliable shooting and manoeuvrability to do damage throughout the game and be effective late game when you need them.

 

No this is not the perfect list. No this list is not going to be the next LVO or supermajor GT winner. This list however does have the right play style to try and keep up with the current marine meta and be competitive enough to win games. On average a single character speeder kills 4 Primaris equivalents and 2.5 Iron Hand Primaris equivalents and you have 4 of them. Killing a marine armies board control and an Iron Hands unit for Cogitated Martyrdom is how you have a chance at being competitive in the marine meta.

 

I guess it is the ITC style games that I'm not accounting for.  That format does seem to benefit certain play styles over others and it also appears to favors certain units as well.  However I can't help but feel that this list would only be more competitive if you replaced the Inc Chap and 2 Talon masters with 5 TML speeders.

 

It is more wounds that your opponent will have to punch through, and considering you like the Inc chap w/ powerfist, why wouldn't you want to throw 10 punches with that fist turn 1 at anything on the board.  Because that is what you would be doing with 5 TML.  Sure they don't have character protection, and yes they could be targeted... as long as that something has better than 52 inch range.

 

The speed factor you mention seems at odds with the fact that your army is so stationary, with the exception of Sableclaw and Talonmasters.  Yes you could use that move to swing your characters around to the far side of your units to make sure that one of them is closer to the enemy.... I picture your speeders circling a drain.  But that only seems to work if your opponent only presses forward with 1 threat at a time.

 

Again this might be due to my lack of experience with ITC Style.  But it would seem that a savvy opponent would push forward with several threats that would ensure that no matter where you moved they would be able to target one of your characters.  Once they out maneuver you and knock out a character, your are going to struggle to stop them from doing it again next turn.



#69
Berzul

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#70
Grimdark_Garage

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Belive in the Smash Chaplain! Last night mine took 15 wounds off of a Knight.

That was only with Mantra of Strength and Relic Master Crafted. I tried to get Righteous Repugnance off but failed so only 3 wounds got through.
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#71
sneakybamsen

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Solrac, I value your opinion and greater experience in the realm of ITC missions, but I believe Talonmasters will shrink quickly against eliminators and stalker bolt rifles and other types of sniping. I just see a lot of that where I play, so the argument of character rule is quite a bit less valid here. Most of the competitive players in Denmark are toning down characters because of GW's elaborate expansion into rules for sniping.

 

Without an invul save the Talonmaster just becomes a very interesting target. Yes, he is t6, so the weapons mentioned will wound him on 5's, but most of them will bring his save to 5+ or worse, and doing multiple damage per shot, he will quickly go down. Yes, it's CP intensive to do it continously with stalker bolt rifles, but few marine lists don't bring 9 eliminators, which will also quickly mince a talonmaster. True, there are other opponents that don't field this kind of trickery, and so the character rule will be more of a challenge for them. I trust you when you say it has merit.

 

I was merely thinking of output and the fact that their auras don't stack, and those auras are also a great part of the reason why you take them. Without a lot of other RW units, the auras become less "crucial". But their firepower is good, no doubt. I love the look on peoples faces when they say "didn't you already shoot that unit and that?" and my response is "sorry, that was just the talonmaster triggering signal the attack. Here comes the kicker..."

 

As I said previously, I will not be getting three talonmasters, as I have a feeling 9th will arrive this summer, very possibly invalidating a lot of the stuff we see now.

 

Regards

Sneaky


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#72
Solrac

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I guess it is the ITC style games that I'm not accounting for.  That format does seem to benefit certain play styles over others and it also appears to favors certain units as well.  However I can't help but feel that this list would only be more competitive if you replaced the Inc Chap and 2 Talon masters with 5 TML speeders.

 

It is more wounds that your opponent will have to punch through, and considering you like the Inc chap w/ powerfist, why wouldn't you want to throw 10 punches with that fist turn 1 at anything on the board.  Because that is what you would be doing with 5 TML.  Sure they don't have character protection, and yes they could be targeted... as long as that something has better than 52 inch range.

 

The speed factor you mention seems at odds with the fact that your army is so stationary, with the exception of Sableclaw and Talonmasters.  Yes you could use that move to swing your characters around to the far side of your units to make sure that one of them is closer to the enemy.... I picture your speeders circling a drain.  But that only seems to work if your opponent only presses forward with 1 threat at a time.

 

Again this might be due to my lack of experience with ITC Style.  But it would seem that a savvy opponent would push forward with several threats that would ensure that no matter where you moved they would be able to target one of your characters.  Once they out maneuver you and knock out a character, your are going to struggle to stop them from doing it again next turn.

 

 

Well every meta is different and there are big difference between local, regional and world metas as well as the missions that are being played.

 

As far as ITC is concerned though, the ITC meta at the moment is dominated by Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Imperial Fists.

 

And this is where my comparison lies with Talonmasters vs other choices.

 

I agree that 5 TML Speeders is now a great boon to any list but for ITC they are not. It's nothing to do with their damage output but everything to do with their survivability. 5 Speeders with a 4++ will still fold to Iron Hand and Imperial Fist shooting first turn and you have to account for these armies now as they have become more and more popular in ITC

 

The mobility I mention is more the fact that my screening units can take midfield early and the Speeder characters have the movement to manoeuvre to get effective firing lanes whilst still staying behind screening units for the character rule. They also have the movement to move back and be protected by your out of LOS units. Playing with characters takes a lot of practice and thinking where your character blocking units need to be keeping in mind the movement of your enemy.

 

As I said it's not perfect but against the other harder hitting marine armies I think it's one of our most solid options for competitive play. Maybe if my current iteration doesn't work I can revisit the 5 TML speeders and sub them in instead of the Inceptors.


Edited by Solrac, 13 February 2020 - 10:56 PM.


#73
Solrac

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Solrac, I value your opinion and greater experience in the realm of ITC missions, but I believe Talonmasters will shrink quickly against eliminators and stalker bolt rifles and other types of sniping. I just see a lot of that where I play, so the argument of character rule is quite a bit less valid here. Most of the competitive players in Denmark are toning down characters because of GW's elaborate expansion into rules for sniping.

 

Without an invul save the Talonmaster just becomes a very interesting target. Yes, he is t6, so the weapons mentioned will wound him on 5's, but most of them will bring his save to 5+ or worse, and doing multiple damage per shot, he will quickly go down. Yes, it's CP intensive to do it continously with stalker bolt rifles, but few marine lists don't bring 9 eliminators, which will also quickly mince a talonmaster. True, there are other opponents that don't field this kind of trickery, and so the character rule will be more of a challenge for them. I trust you when you say it has merit.

 

I was merely thinking of output and the fact that their auras don't stack, and those auras are also a great part of the reason why you take them. Without a lot of other RW units, the auras become less "crucial". But their firepower is good, no doubt. I love the look on peoples faces when they say "didn't you already shoot that unit and that?" and my response is "sorry, that was just the talonmaster triggering signal the attack. Here comes the kicker..."

 

As I said previously, I will not be getting three talonmasters, as I have a feeling 9th will arrive this summer, very possibly invalidating a lot of the stuff we see now.

 

Regards

Sneaky

 

If the snipers were shooting at normal characters sure, I would totally agree.

 

3 Eliminators on average do 1 wound to a Talonmaster (this includes mortal wounds)

 

10 Stalker Bolt Rifles spending 3 CP for the sniping strat do 5 wounds on average (this includes mortal wounds)

 

This also doesn't account for Armour of Contempt giving you 5+ FNP vs Mortal Wounds or High Speed Focus giving you the 4++ which reduce these stats even further (which you will definitely be spending 2 CP on if a Talonmaster is being targeted by 10 stalkers and 9 eliminators). And if these units are trying to kill a speeder character they are definitely not shooting the Techmarine ready to repair the speeder if they fail to kill it.

 

It's almost impossible to evade Eliminators but the character speeders definitely have the manoeuvrability to avoid a 10 man unit of Stalker Bolters.

 

It is a factor you have to consider when coming up against sniping units but the higher toughness and higher wound pool of these character models makes it more forgiving on your part. Just takes practice and play testing.

 

Again though as I've said, all metas are different and if a heavy amount of snipers is all you see in your area then I understand where you are coming from.



#74
Phaeton

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Good points here, Solrac. And let's not forget that talonmasters are ideally suited to destroy eliminators. They ignore eliminator's +2 to cover and worsen their armor to 5+ with devastator doctrine. So, on your turn, you can delete these eliminators with your talonmasters. And due to advantage in mobility and equal ranges there are high chances that your talonmasters will shoot first.


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#75
SnakeChisler

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Eliminators are 36" range and only get d3 & mortal wounds on the main shell, thier main advantage of +2 when in cover will be gone with any ravenwing shooting them.

Part of the attraction in itc for getting in a bunch of assault cannons into your list that you can buff to at least +2 to hit and with a relic to +3 are a number of lists that rely on multiple negative buffs on units, the eldar flyer lists with built in neg2 & alpha Legion spring to mind.

Eliminators are a solid choice rather than being spectacular there even more useful with +6 to range, part of thier attraction is zoning and the +2 cover save





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