Haldredd Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 With the recent updates to Space Marine and Templar rules, whilst not a top tier army, we find ourselves in a much more competitive position than before. I’m interested, though, in a list that’s both effective and fluffy. So what do I mean by that? In my opinion to be a fluffy Templar list it must: Include at least one of our characters (Helbrecht, Grimaldus, Emperor’s Champion) - more than one is fine! Include at least one Crusader squad containing initiates and neophytes Include no scout squads, yes they probably exist in some crusade somewhere, but it’s not really how the Templars roll Be no more than 50% Primaris, yes Helbrecht accepted them, but begrudgingly and until they’re available in Crusader squads I’ll take that to mean they’ve not been fully integrated so they shouldn’t make up the majority of a fluffy force Meet the game’s requirements to be a pure Black Templar list, so having an inquisitor, for example, would be ok, but not an assassin Use tactics and units that lean towards close combat rather than shooting - having some ranged heft is fine but ideally at least half your force should be running towards the enemy Bonus points for including the following super Templary units: Land Raider Crusader Terminators with thunder hammers and storm shields Company veterans in a Vigilus Sword Brethren detachment I know there will be some difference of opinion over what constitutes a fluffy list, so feel free to share your thoughts on that! Most of all I’m interested in how effective a list can we make that fits those requirements and makes an impact whilst still feeling like a real Templar army? What would your list be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Where does this notion of Helbrecht's begrudging acceptance keep coming from? He begrudged being told to focus on protecting humanity over chasing Ghaz, he willingly took the new kids. The codex even describes Intercessor Squads in the fluff as being Crusader Squads. I just don't think the rules have caught up yet. For me, a fluffy BT army is one that gets to grips with the enemy. All weapons are usable if they kill xenos, heretics or witches. Shooty crusader squads: fine, sniper scouts nearing the end of their training: crack on. Drop podding choppy crusaders: awesome, Fully mechanised Primaris in Repulsors: smashing. SydonianDragoon404 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Mattias Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 While the list you describe is only one interpretation of "fluffy" it is also the type of list I am most interested in running myself. Unfortunately I'm sort of lost with this new edition and codex/expansions so I look forward to seeing what some of you folks can come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haldredd Posted February 6, 2020 Author Share Posted February 6, 2020 Where does this notion of Helbrecht's begrudging acceptance keep coming from? I checked back to find what made that impression on me and I stand corrected, the first Space Marine codex had this to say in Helbrecht's profile: “High Marshal Helbrecht welcomed both the Primarch and the new Primaris Marines that joined his Chapter”. So yes, no begrudging there. My personal preference for a fluffy list still stands though. Until we can have Primaris Crusader squads of course! Very few Primaris units have the feel of the Templars to me. But I welcome everyone’s opinion and would love to know what makes a list that really says “Templar” to them and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 Where does this notion of Helbrecht's begrudging acceptance keep coming from? I checked back to find what made that impression on me and I stand corrected, the first Space Marine codex had this to say in Helbrecht's profile: “High Marshal Helbrecht welcomed both the Primarch and the new Primaris Marines that joined his Chapter”. So yes, no begrudging there. My personal preference for a fluffy list still stands though. Until we can have Primaris Crusader squads of course! Very few Primaris units have the feel of the Templars to me. But I welcome everyone’s opinion and would love to know what makes a list that really says “Templar” to them and why. There's a guy in the BT Facebook group who keeps insisting that that paragraph was a retcon from the index. But the index said nothing on the subject whatsoever, I just think he wishes that was the case. But because he has posited himself on that group as the lore 'expert' he refuses to acknowledge he's made it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamansky Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) For the cause of bringing the light where uncertainty is Codex Black Templars last page (the one with the galaxy map) Edited February 6, 2020 by Shamansky redmapa 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 That is just the equipment list mind, back then we could run mixed combat bike and scout bike squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamansky Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 Errr... what? I'm obviosly misinterprete your statement Brother Adelard. But i'll ask anyway. When was that time when we could use mixed biker squads? There were no rules for Templar scout bikes in the Codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haldredd Posted February 6, 2020 Author Share Posted February 6, 2020 I love the thought of a Crusader squad on bikes! Bonus points for taking a bike squad and a scout bike squad and playing them as if they were one cohesive squad during the game Shamansky 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 Errr... what? I'm obviosly misinterprete your statement Brother Adelard. But i'll ask anyway. When was that time when we could use mixed biker squads? There were no rules for Templar scout bikes in the Codex. Codex: Armageddon, You could run a mix of Neophyte and Initiate Bikers. Perhaps the fluff writers didn't realise the rules writers had removed the option. Ironically, I think Codex: Armageddon pre-dated Neophyte biker models, so rules, but no model, then Codex:BT was the opposite, Models, but no rules. Shamansky 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamansky Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 Thank you Brother! That was enlightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 Where does this notion of Helbrecht's begrudging acceptance keep coming from? I checked back to find what made that impression on me and I stand corrected, the first Space Marine codex had this to say in Helbrecht's profile: “High Marshal Helbrecht welcomed both the Primarch and the new Primaris Marines that joined his Chapter”. So yes, no begrudging there. My personal preference for a fluffy list still stands though. Until we can have Primaris Crusader squads of course! Very few Primaris units have the feel of the Templars to me. But I welcome everyone’s opinion and would love to know what makes a list that really says “Templar” to them and why. Incursors are you friends. They can have a turn one charge and the assault doctrine when supported by a Phobos Marshal(capt). They have solid CC with exploding 6's, they have cover ignoring guns, and they are Troops. Pair them with an Invcitor and you have some good threats that can hamper your opponent or at least tie up crucial shooting units. Haldredd and Dracos 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius_Aurilius Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) Doesn't seem like anyone is actually making list like OP wanted so I took a stab at it. I am not sure it's the most competitive list, But I tried to follow your rules, while trying add something that are good in the meta right now like the TF cannons and the Centurions.The only issue I found or rather Battlescribe found was that I had one to many relics. But I swear there is a stratagem that says you can have two. That is why I left it as is.You will have the Captain with crusader helm with the five Centurions are in the LRC. With the Warlord jump Chaplin on the outside to give them the bonus turn 1 with the aurillian shroud and to buff them on the charges and attacks once they leave. Then the other major unit is the three 5 man squads on Intercessor have the stalker bolt rifle to give us more options for turn one damage output.Past that you do what you want with the guys. I tried to give the player a good mix of melee and shooting so that they could change it up how they need.Oh and this is a brigade detachment and battle forged so you get 15 CP. I used 3CP to make the Chaplin a MoS and the captain a CM. ++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [114 PL, 12CP, 1,995pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Black Templars Battle-forged CP [3CP] Detachment CP [12CP] + HQ + Chaplain [5 PL, -1CP, 99pts]: 3. Exhortation of Rage, 6. Canticle of Hate, Frontline Commander, Jump Pack, Litany of Hate, Power fist, Strategem: Master of Sanctity, The Aurillian Shroud, Warlord Chapter Master [5 PL, -2CP, 77pts]: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun, Stratagem: Chapter Master, The Crusader's Helm The Emperor's Champion [4 PL, 75pts] + Troops + Crusader Squad [9 PL, 161pts] . 7x Initiate . Initiate w/Heavy or Melee Weapon: Missile launcher . Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun . Sword Brother Crusader Squad [9 PL, 130pts] . 9x Initiate w/Chainsword . Sword Brother: Chainsword Crusader Squad [9 PL, 130pts] . 9x Initiate . Sword Brother: Chainsword Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle . 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle . 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle . 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant + Elites + Centurion Assault Squad [16 PL, 210pts] . Centurion: Centurion Assault Launchers . . Flamers: 2x Flamer . Centurion: Centurion Assault Launchers . . Flamers: 2x Flamer . Centurion: Centurion Assault Launchers . . Flamers: 2x Flamer . Centurion: Centurion Assault Launchers . . Flamers: 2x Flamer . Centurion Sergeant: Centurion Assault Launchers . . Flamers: 2x Flamer Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber + Fast Attack + Attack Bike Squad [2 PL, 37pts] . Attack Bike: Heavy bolter, Twin boltgun Attack Bike Squad [2 PL, 37pts] . Attack Bike: Heavy bolter, Twin boltgun Attack Bike Squad [4 PL, 74pts] . Attack Bike: Heavy bolter, Twin boltgun . Attack Bike: Heavy bolter, Twin boltgun + Heavy Support + Land Raider Crusader [14 PL, 264pts]: 2x Hurricane bolter, Twin assault cannon Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts] . Techmarine Gunner . . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts] . Techmarine Gunner . . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter ++ Total: [114 PL, 12CP, 1,995pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net) Edited February 6, 2020 by Marius_Aurilius Haldredd 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haldredd Posted February 6, 2020 Author Share Posted February 6, 2020 Incursors are you friends. They can have a turn one charge and the assault doctrine when supported by a Phobos Marshal(capt). They have solid CC with exploding 6's, they have cover ignoring guns, and they are Troops. Pair them with an Invcitor and you have some good threats that can hamper your opponent or at least tie up crucial shooting units. Oo, yes I like the Incursors, the only Primaris troop choice with anything interesting going on for close combat. Fan of the Invictor too. Can’t quite see where the Phobos Capt has anything special to do with turn one charges or the assault doctrine though, is there a stratagem or relic I’ve missed? Doesn't seem like anyone is actually making list like OP wanted so I took a stab at it. I am not sure it's the most competitive list, But I tried to follow your rules, while trying add something that are good in the meta right now like the TF cannons and the Centurions. Thank you for the list! Sooo close to ticking all the boxes but no neophytes! That LR Crusader is going to attract a lot of attention, but boy would it pack a punch! Loving all the troops and your choice of supporting units. This army will generate a serious hail of fire before getting stuck into combat. Has a good feel to it. Marius_Aurilius 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymnblade Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 Haldredd, I think he's talk about the Crusader's Helm, which allows you to pick one nearby unit and put them in assault doctrine for the turn. I like to say that Incursors fielded alongside Scouts are crusader squads in spirit, but that may not be in the spirit of the challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 The crusader helm is only half as useful on that chapter master. He'll benefit from the aura range boost, but you won't benefit from the assault doctrine part of it basically at all. Incursors are you friends. They can have a turn one charge and the assault doctrine when supported by a Phobos Marshal(capt). They have solid CC with exploding 6's, they have cover ignoring guns, and they are Troops. Pair them with an Invcitor and you have some good threats that can hamper your opponent or at least tie up crucial shooting units. Oo, yes I like the Incursors, the only Primaris troop choice with anything interesting going on for close combat. Fan of the Invictor too. Can’t quite see where the Phobos Capt has anything special to do with turn one charges or the assault doctrine though, is there a stratagem or relic I’ve missed? Yes, I was referring to the Crusader Helm which allows you to pick a unit to have the assault doctrine. The Phobos capt is the only one who can activate it turn one. He's also really good with Witchseeker bolts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius_Aurilius Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Incursors are you friends. They can have a turn one charge and the assault doctrine when supported by a Phobos Marshal(capt). They have solid CC with exploding 6's, they have cover ignoring guns, and they are Troops. Pair them with an Invcitor and you have some good threats that can hamper your opponent or at least tie up crucial shooting units. Oo, yes I like the Incursors, the only Primaris troop choice with anything interesting going on for close combat. Fan of the Invictor too. Can’t quite see where the Phobos Capt has anything special to do with turn one charges or the assault doctrine though, is there a stratagem or relic I’ve missed? Doesn't seem like anyone is actually making list like OP wanted so I took a stab at it. I am not sure it's the most competitive list, But I tried to follow your rules, while trying add something that are good in the meta right now like the TF cannons and the Centurions. Thank you for the list! Sooo close to ticking all the boxes but no neophytes! That LR Crusader is going to attract a lot of attention, but boy would it pack a punch! Loving all the troops and your choice of supporting units. This army will generate a serious hail of fire before getting stuck into combat. Has a good feel to it. CRAP!! I did forget the neophytes! lol Okay slight correction. Take five initiates from both of the 10 man squads and make them Neophytes. Fixed! lol. The LRC for sure will lol. That's why I gave the Jump Chaplin the aurilian shroud and the litany that allows him to give anything in the aura a 5+++. So that the LRC turn one would have 2+, 4++, 5+++ and a 5++++(MW fnp) After Math hammering it out With being shot at by an executioner, and let's say each shot does 6 flat damage instead of D6 and all 1 and 2 are 3 damage, It is only able to 3.556 damage on average. If you had to fight two of those they would be doing 10.667 damage on average. That's with 8 shots coming in too! Also the damage model for them is different too so it could be less. So it will hurt but on average you should be able to get the LRC into combat at the minimum. I don't think it would hurt though to have a tech priest with you either. since you still have 12 CP give him the MotF and allow him to repair 3 damadge on the LRC. The only Problem I see is keeping up with the LRC. But if it has a bad roll for it's advance roll you might be able to keep up lol. Hoenstly thinking about it it most likely won't work but it's an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecapn226 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Here is a list I've been painting for a few weeks. Gonna try it at a local 16 man tourney tomorrow. I know it has some shooty and scouts, but most of the army is at least 9" from the enemy deployment zone on turn 1 so I count it as a close assault army. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Black Templars Battle-forged CP Detachment CP Inquisitor Coteaz: 1) Terrify, 4) Mental Interrogation, Stratagem: Inquisitorial Mandate Relics of the Chapter: Number of extra Relics Specialist Detachment: Black Templars Sword Brethren + HQ + Captain: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Jump Pack, Stratagem: Field Commander, Teeth of Terra The Emperor's Champion + Troops + Scout Squad . Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife . 4x Scout w/Combat Knife Scout Squad . Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife . 4x Scout w/Combat Knife Scout Squad . Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife . 4x Scout w/Combat Knife + Elites + Company Veterans . Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield . Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield . Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield . Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield . Veteran Sergeant: Storm bolter, Storm shield Company Veterans . Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield . Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield . Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield . Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield . Veteran Sergeant: Storm bolter, Storm shield Company Veterans . Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield . Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield . Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield . Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield . Veteran Sergeant: Storm bolter, Storm shield Vanguard Veteran Squad: Jump Pack . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Veteran Sergeant: Storm shield, Thunder hammer + Dedicated Transport + Drop Pod: Storm bolter Drop Pod: Storm bolter Drop Pod: Storm bolter ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Black Templars Detachment CP + HQ + Chaplain: 4. Fires of Devotion, 5. Fervent Acclamation, Bolt pistol, Jump Pack, Litany of Hate, Strategem: Master of Sanctity, The Crusader's Helm, Warlord High Marshal Helbrecht + Troops + Scout Squad . Scout Sergeant: Astartes shotgun, Chainsword . 4x Scout w/Shotgun Scout Squad . Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword . 4x Scout w/Boltgun Scout Squad . Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword . 4x Scout w/Boltgun ++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Black Templars Detachment CP + HQ + Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought: 4. Mantra of Strength, Litany of Hate . Melee weapon: Dreadnought combat weapon, Storm bolter . Melee weapon: Dreadnought combat weapon, Storm bolter + Heavy Support + Devastator Squad: Armorium Cherub . Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp Devastator Squad: Armorium Cherub . Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp Thunderfire Cannon . Techmarine Gunner . . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter ++ Total: [122 PL, 9CP, 1,999pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 I don't feel like 6x scout squads is all that fluffy for a BT force. Sword Brother Adelard 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecapn226 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Honestly it's not. But it's the only troop choice that is effective. 6 crusader squads are overpriced when MSU and 6 tide squads take up a lot of points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Incursors are looking better each time I think about them. A small squad is 90-95 points and has ten wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 I like the "Grav-bombs". In each other Space Marine list they have problems when if an enemy unity get into close combat with a drop pod. As Black Templars we can can clear it very good. A LRC with 11 Crusadersquad, 5 Company Veterans und Helbrecht nearby we can keep our High Marshal close to the Grav bombs take the stratagem 2 times... if an enemy come close then we hit them hard with all inside the LRC. And the LRC is a good weapon platform too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Honestly it's not. But it's the only troop choice that is effective. 6 crusader squads are overpriced when MSU and 6 tide squads take up a lot of points. I beg to differ. several MSU crusader squads with double PF is a decent CC clean up unit or back up assault. Also Incursors, while more expensive than scouts are better in basically every way. Better guns, better CC, 2 wounds, etc etc. I like the "Grav-bombs". In each other Space Marine list they have problems when if an enemy unity get into close combat with a drop pod. As Black Templars we can can clear it very good. A LRC with 11 Crusadersquad, 5 Company Veterans und Helbrecht nearby we can keep our High Marshal close to the Grav bombs take the stratagem 2 times... if an enemy come close then we hit them hard with all inside the LRC. And the LRC is a good weapon platform too. Exactly, I plan on testing out the Grav bomb as well. Will give some good Alpha strike potential and since we are already probably taking pods anyway It's only the cost of the grav unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecapn226 Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 Make sure you have an ancient if you do a grav bomb. 5 marines don't last against a stiff wind let alone any focused fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 Order of fire it useful too. First fire your three without the buffs, then fire the signum marine. Then, you can choose, once everyone had fired, whether to spend the cherub. Hopefully, you won't need it and can use it next turn. If any survive... The Ancient tip is awesome. On one game I failed to kill a LRC in my turn one, but I did kill it in my opponent's turn one with the Devastators that died! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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