Tempestus Scions - New Rules Discussion

[noigrim]

The question is: taking them as a patrol or a mini sized batallion?

Then you could have rr type artillery detachment

Survivors+18'' rapid fire infantry

Tempestus to deepstrike

 

plus inquisitor for conscript blobs/ replace one detachment with knight

[KGatch113]

The question is: taking them as a patrol or a mini sized batallion?

Then you could have rr type artillery detachment

Survivors+18'' rapid fire infantry

Tempestus to deepstrike

 

plus inquisitor for conscript blobs/ replace one detachment with knight

I don' get the attraction to 18 inch rapid fire infantry.

[Trickstick]

I don' get the attraction to 18 inch rapid fire infantry.

That extra 6" may not seem like much, but you can get a lot more fire power on target with it. A turn less movement to get into double tap range and more squads can fire at a single target. It's really good.

[KGatch113]

 

I don' get the attraction to 18 inch rapid fire infantry.

That extra 6" may not seem like much, but you can get a lot more fire power on target with it. A turn less movement to get into double tap range and more squads can fire at a single target. It's really good.

 

On lasguns? I like to keep my infantry on objectives and let my effective guns do the killing.

[Dumah]

 

 

I don' get the attraction to 18 inch rapid fire infantry.

That extra 6" may not seem like much, but you can get a lot more fire power on target with it. A turn less movement to get into double tap range and more squads can fire at a single target. It's really good.

 

On lasguns? I like to keep my infantry on objectives and let my effective guns do the killing.

 

 

There's a significant difference between lasguns and hotshot lasguns, to the tune of -2 AP. 

[KGatch113]

 

 

 

I don' get the attraction to 18 inch rapid fire infantry.

That extra 6" may not seem like much, but you can get a lot more fire power on target with it. A turn less movement to get into double tap range and more squads can fire at a single target. It's really good.

 

On lasguns? I like to keep my infantry on objectives and let my effective guns do the killing.

 

 

There's a significant difference between lasguns and hotshot lasguns, to the tune of -2 AP. 

 

Exactly. Which is why I keep the lasgun guys on objectives and use the hotshot guys to kill the enemy. Again, still don't see the need for 18 inch lasguns. 

[TraceTheKriken]

My 2 cents on the new scions regimental doctrines as a mono scions player (assuming you can use drop force with them)

 

Storm trooper:

it's really good now thx to the 5" drop with the valk. with that you could deploy 2 command squads full plasma and generate exta hits on a 5+ if you have a tempestor field commander with the +1 to hit.

nothing else to say here

 

Jakals:

I think they could be really good with deathwatch against nids (sniping synapse Hq), and to force almost every army to spend 2cp a turn on key units. useless against knights or armies with lots of vehicles/monsters.

Interesting relic for a suicide bomb with a tempestor, 5" charge after deploy from a valk and shooting , to kill some GEQ (that tempestor is dead meat anyway).

good warlord trait if you go first and good stratagem too for a taurox or a unit on objective( in cover and psychic power for extra -1 to hit).

Lots of potential in a soup list. Situational for a mono scions.

 

Thetoid Eagles

stormtroper doctine but a natural 6 scores an additional hit. Same quirks as the stormtrooper doctrine (you have to use the valk for the 5" drop if you are against someone that knows how to screen). better against - x  to hit targets, but worst against targets that have no malus to hit compared to stormtrooper.

good relic (with vigilus is a 90% (?) 2 dmg smite on drop), not so good warlord trait imo (rend -4 for hot shot weapons on 6 to wound and only for units in 6"? maybe with volley guns? idk). taurox stratagem is good with this doctrine, but is only for 1.

Imo stormtrooper is better in a lot of situations, but it's more of a matter of taste here.

 

Lambdan lions

-1 rend to every weapon is really solid. this makes your plasma flat 2dmg melta (but with more range), taurox gatling rend -1 is more effective against GEQ and MEQ, taurox krak missiles with rend -3, hotshots with -3 rend makes marines MEQ with 6+ and you also have -1 to rend in cc army wide.

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE. Warlord trait is useful for a cheap tempestor prime Yarrick wannabe for you suicide drop, and the relic gives 5+ invull in 6". The relic is good to shield your tauroxes (only ML tauroxes, gatlings want to be in the front line) but situational for your scions (it's difficult that they will be targeted with -2 rend weapons).

The stratagem is useful against vehicles or monsters if your 10 men squad with 4 HSVG find itself in close range with that kind of target.

Solid for mono scions, but there is better if you use scions for soup.

 

Dragons

+6" to rapid fire is no joke. You can finally deep strike with your hot shots and be in half range for that sweet double tap (and +1 S with 1CP), or be out of Auspex scans with your plasma drop. The relic is fine, but you are sacrificing an order for your tempestor (and 1/3CP). The warlord trait is situational but good. 4+ overwatch is a good stratagem on a taurox or 10 men squad with 4HSVG.

Overall they are really versatile and the best pick for a soup IMO. In a mono scions they are really good too because with your 5" drop you can be in double tap range of everything important that has a screen in front of it (most of the times).

 

Kappic eagles

with them you can just ignore the vigilus drop force. +1 to hit when you disemebark lets your drop be more disperse if you want, and less clunky to pull off. But i think that this docrine really shines with HSVG disembarking from taurox with gatling guns, just to destroy some MEQ and GEQ efficiently. And of course no overheating plasma after disembarking.

Their relic is devastating against cc heavy armies if yo really want to hold an objective ( this apply to tauroxes too remember that). the warlord trait is fine, nothing to say.

the stratagem  is really good too for helping your units surviving more after a drop or on the objectives.

They are really versatile, but they only shine if you use your transports. Good for mono scions, but dragons are better in a soup (less point investment).

 

Gorgonnes

Last but not least we have the Gorgonnes. Another reskin of the stormtropper doctrine. 1 extra hit on a 6 to hit against the closest unit. It's not bad because you are not limited with the half range to trigger it, but you'll be at the mercy of your opponents rules of engagement (if he is smart). The relic is just meh. If it was 24" it would be awesome, but 12" is almost useless unless you drop with valk at 5" or use the stratagem of the gorgons to drop that single tempestor at 5". In the best case scenario with this relic you could take down ahriman (even a 1k sons deamon prince if you manage at least a 6 to hit, if closest, and he fails his saves) or an imperial guard/eldar warlord, but it's too situational to be worth it IMO. Speaking of the stratagem, it's really good. Dropping a 10 men squad or a command squad in a key position is just great, especially if you can snipe a character or a fragile vehicle.

the warlord trait is great against a psychic heavy army like 1k sons, Grey knights or eldar, but less optimal or useless against other armies.

I think they could be really good, but i need to experiment more with them. They could be interesting in a mono scions list or in a soup for the sniping potential.

Edited February 18, 2020 by TraceTheKriken

[jaxom]

I've updated the Regiment rules reference on the first page.

 

 

Technically none of the new regiments can use the Vigilus formation:

 

 

 

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine.

 

It is obviously going to change, but as it stands.

 

So there is a double whammy....only a Stormtroopers Doctrine detachment can take the TDF, and/or they define a MTD has only having the ST RD. How does this interact with page 64 of the Greater Good....

 

 

Okay - here's my theory on how the order of operations works (until we get a new FAQ which fixes this stupidity - seriously, who needed that FAQ when the AM codex is pretty clear on the matter):

 

0) Warhammer Rulebook p. 240 - Army units are mustered and they all have the ASTRA MILITARUM faction; Astra Militarum WLT, strats, and relics are unlocked for further list building.

1) Astra Militarum p. 132 -  Every unit in a detachment is Militarum Tempestus (or Auxiliary) --> every unit (except Auxiliary) in the detachment gains the Storm Trooper Regimental Doctrine.

2) Vigilus Defiant FAQ - The detachment has the Storm Trooper Regimental Doctrine; it is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment.

3) Vigilus Defiant p. 168-169 -  Spend CP to make the MT Detachment a Tempestus Drop Force (unlocking Field Commander strat, Grav-Chute Commando WLT, and Cypra Mundi Null-Emitter relic for further list building).

4) The Greater Good p. 64 - Each Militarum Tempestus unit gains the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword, which is then replaced by one of the six named regiments.

5) The Greater Good p. 64 - If all the MT units in the MT detachment (key point: it is pre-defined in TGG as being an MT detachment; it must already have Storm Troopers) have the same named regiment then all the units gain a Regimental Doctrine selected on p. 65. The selected Doctrine can replace Storm Troopers, but you've already unlocked Tempestus Drop Force.

6) Spend any additional CP on pre-game strats, assign WLT and relic(s).

Edited February 18, 2020 by jaxom

[noigrim]

Can we still drop and then move with an order?

[Trickstick]

Can we still drop and then move with an order?

I think they got rid of that a while back.

[duz_]

Can we still drop and then move with an order?

Might have to see what the wording of the no movement after grav chute

Not sure if you can move move move them after

Even if you could you couldn't shoot after that

[Bluflash]

Likely can't move after drop, but definatly can charge.

[mertbl]

Nothing that comes in from reserves can move again by any special ability order stratagem blah blah blah. One of the big faqs. No move move move, no hive commander.

[noigrim]

What about the new gk power? Allows you to shoot and move in psi phase

[Trickstick]

What about the new gk power? Allows you to shoot and move in psi phase

There is a blanket ban for moving after coming in from reserve. Edited February 20, 2020 by Trickstick

[Mr4Minutes]

Page 117 – Valkyries, Grav-chute Insertion

Change the first sentence to read:

‘Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point during its move, but if they do they cannot move further during this phase; if the Valkyrie moves 20" or more, you must roll a D6 for each model disembarking.

 

Straight from the AM codex FAQ. No movement this phase. Orders are given during the shooting phase and therefore you can legally give a unit disembarking from a Valkyrie the move, move, move order.

 

Your unit is also not coming in from reserves, but disembarking from a transport. Hence being able to disembark turn 1.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Mr4Minutes

[KGatch113]

Valkyrie question......You can take 2 flyers per detachment. Where are the rules governing who can be loaded onto a Valkyrie? That is, since they do not gain any regiment keywords ( Unless you take a Tempestus Drop Force, I guess) does that mean Valks from detachment A can start the game carrying units from detachment B? Or say, you take an airwing? 

[zero88]

There is no restriction, they can carry anything from any of your AM detachments that make up you "battle forged" army. Some people to maximize efficiency will field their dedicated transports in one Detachment and doctrine then have their infantry in a different detachment with a different doctrine. The only exception is the Taurox Prime since it specifies the keywords it can carry, although this doesn't stop Tempestus infantry from being carried around in regular Tauroxes or Chimeras

[KGatch113]

There is no restriction, they can carry anything from any of your AM detachments that make up you "battle forged" army. Some people to maximize efficiency will field their dedicated transports in one Detachment and doctrine then have their infantry in a different detachment with a different doctrine. The only exception is the Taurox Prime since it specifies the keywords it can carry, although this doesn't stop Tempestus infantry from being carried around in regular Tauroxes or Chimeras

Cool....shame Valks etc can't get doctrines.

 

Any restriction on mixing units? Like can I throw an inquisitor, primaris psyker and stormtrooper command squad in 1 Valk?

 

First turn when the Valk is sitting there, does it get the Hard to Hit rule or does it have to move first?

Edited February 21, 2020 by KGatch113

[Shamansky]

On the 1st turn and after coming from reserves aircrafts are having their codex profile with all abilities and rules, including hard to hit. It is hovering mode that needs a movement phase to be declared in. 

[jaxom]

 

 

There is no restriction, they can carry anything from any of your AM detachments that make up you "battle forged" army. Some people to maximize efficiency will field their dedicated transports in one Detachment and doctrine then have their infantry in a different detachment with a different doctrine. The only exception is the Taurox Prime since it specifies the keywords it can carry, although this doesn't stop Tempestus infantry from being carried around in regular Tauroxes or Chimeras

Cool....shame Valks etc can't get doctrines.

 

Any restriction on mixing units? Like can I throw an inquisitor, primaris psyker and stormtrooper command squad in 1 Valk?

No to the first question and yes to your example. So long as a unit’s keywords match what is transportable (or explicitly state it can go in, like an Inquisitor) then you can put any number of units in the same transport until the transport capacity is met (models in a unit have to stay together; either everyone fits or the unit can not embark).

[duz_]

The questions regarding Valk grav chute insertion and arriving from reserve aren't really new scion rules

 

If there is still uncertainty about these rules I suggest everyone check the BRB, codex rules and faq first and if it is still unclear then start a new discussion in the OR.

Same applies for Inquisition related rules.

[KGatch113]

So here is a tactic. The strat for Valkyries to be -1 to hit is a universal strat ( that can be used on all your valks because it is pregame). 

Take a Valk and take the lascannon and hellstrike missiles. Stick an officer of the fleet on the table. This also let's you use the Tactical Air Control strat. 

Finally take a Pskyer next to the Valk. Cast Nightshroud on it. It is now -2 to hit, +1 to hit, and reroll 1's. ( if you take a unit of Psykers, you can use the +2 casting strat and manifest another power). While it is an expensive 2 shot model, you can hopefully preserve it for a late game objective grab ( drop a unit where needed).

Any other way to juice it up? 

Also remember that The Relentless strat works on your Valkyries as well. 

I was working on a Vulture conversion, I might rework it to be a Valkyrie variant gunship. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by KGatch113

[zero88]

Meh, MT don't really struggle with late game grabbers, you can keep a 35 point squad of Scions in DS for that, or grav chute then Move Move Move. And the offensive output is less than a Taurox with Missiles and Autocannons. I still think the strat is useful and a bargain, but as far as buffing the planes I think you are still better off just buffing one with night shroud and a separate one with psychic barrier

[KGatch113]

Meh, MT don't really struggle with late game grabbers, you can keep a 35 point squad of Scions in DS for that, or grav chute then Move Move Move. And the offensive output is less than a Taurox with Missiles and Autocannons. I still think the strat is useful and a bargain, but as far as buffing the planes I think you are still better off just buffing one with night shroud and a separate one with psychic barrier

If I am going to spend the points on a taurox I'd rather spend them on a leman russ.