Tempestus Scions - New Rules Discussion

[GrinNfool]

 

Meh, MT don't really struggle with late game grabbers, you can keep a 35 point squad of Scions in DS for that, or grav chute then Move Move Move. And the offensive output is less than a Taurox with Missiles and Autocannons. I still think the strat is useful and a bargain, but as far as buffing the planes I think you are still better off just buffing one with night shroud and a separate one with psychic barrier

If I am going to spend the points on a taurox I'd rather spend them on a leman russ.

 

Ya... Taurox Primes are a touch over costed, 80 points base is questionable for a t6 10 wound vehicle.  Rhino base 65 razorback base 70, and those are T7, and on an army that doesn't have access to a russ.  Think the taurox prime should be about 65 base cost (since t6), the weapons themselves are fairly costed and still pump the cost of the vehicle up.  A 10-15 point cost reduction would probably be about right for the taurox prime.

 

[TraceTheKriken]

 

Ya... Taurox Primes are a touch over costed, 80 points base is questionable for a t6 10 wound vehicle.  Rhino base 65 razorback base 70, and those are T7, and on an army that doesn't have access to a russ.  Think the taurox prime should be about 65 base cost (since t6), the weapons themselves are fairly costed and still pump the cost of the vehicle up.  A 10-15 point cost reduction would probably be about right for the taurox prime.

 

Couldn't agree more. for 116pts you get a taurox prime kitted out as anti infantry. it dishes out 22/4 str4 ap0 d1 + 8 str4 ap0 d1 at BS3+ or 4+ if it moved. For 180 you can have a tank commander with punishercannon that dishes out 40 str5 ap0 d1 shots (and you can give him tank ace for -1 ap) + 3 HB shots at BS3+ or 2+ if you are vostroyan (spending a CP).

I mean unless you are playing mono scions (something that I discourage doing despite doing it XD) a tank commander or even a normal lemann russ are better piks than the taurox prime (The anti tank version of the taurox prime is even worse). Lambdan Lions help to mitigate tauroxes prime problems, but they are overcosted anyway.

[jaxom]

What about the Taurox Prime as a transport? Or is the idea to Aerial Drop any units you want to put up in someone’s face?

[TraceTheKriken]

What about the Taurox Prime as a transport? Or is the idea to Aerial Drop any units you want to put up in someone’s face?

From my experience valkyries and tauroxes prime are not worth It if you campare them to other Transports in an Imperial guard army.

If you play mono scions you don't have alternatives and it's a good choice to take them XD.

If you want to deploy them my suggestion Is:

- taurox prime kitted out with all anti infantry options (gatling+hsvg+sb). Put 10 scions with 4 hsvg in It (kappic Eagles) and go for the objectives.

If you manage to make 2 battalions put the tauroxes in the Lion One and then embark your scions from the kappic Eagle second detachment in them (in this way you get extra -1 ap on your taurox and the +1 ab After disembarking and no penalty for heavy wepons on infantry)

- valkyries: give them the the 2x missiles and multilaser (121pts). You want them for a First turn suicide drop. Use Lions or dragons for max efficiency. That said don't expect too much from them. They'll kill some GEQ and MEQ (less likely), but nothing more. Add the 2x hevy bolters only if you have points to spare. They are kind of tanky thx to -1 to hit, t 7 and 14 wounds, but they'll go down if focussed so be careful in your deployment phase of you go second. Great for making invasione or to drop some cheap guys on an objetive early too.

 

So in the end of the day you take them because they have some degree of utility, but you'll pay a fat premium for that.

[Shamansky]

PA:TGG FAQ&Update

 

Gorgonnes relic fixed

Q: Are the Militarum Tempestus Regimental Doctrines taken in addition to the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine listed in Codex: Astra Militarum, or instead of it?

A: They are taken instead of the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine in Codex: Astra Militarum. Note, if you wish to continue using your Militarum Tempestus Detachments as you currently have been, you can simply select the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine from page 65 in Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good

[GrinNfool]

Odd that they didn't answer whether or not the scion regiments can use drop force.

[jaxom]

 

Q: Are the Militarum Tempestus Regimental Doctrines taken in addition to the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine listed in Codex: Astra Militarum, or instead of it?

A: They are taken instead of the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine in Codex: Astra Militarum. Note, if you wish to continue using your Militarum Tempestus Detachments as you currently have been, you can simply select the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine from page 65 in Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good

 

Odd that they didn't answer whether or not the scion regiments can use drop force.

 

Two ways to look at it:

 

1) "if you wish to continue using your Militarum Tempestus Detachments as you currently have been, you can simply select the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine from page 65" is important. If you've been using your MT detachments with the Tempestus Drop Force then you can continue to do so, but only if you select Storm Troopers.

 

2)  The answer about doctrines can fit into my previous logic because the above quote in 1 was actually referring to the specific benefit of Storm Troopers (extra hits at half-range) and not literally you can do whatever you've been doing so long as you take Storm Troopers. 

 

Okay - here's my theory on how the order of operations works (until we get a new FAQ which fixes this stupidity - seriously, who needed that FAQ when the AM codex is pretty clear on the matter):

 

 

 

0) Warhammer Rulebook p. 240 - Army units are mustered and they all have the ASTRA MILITARUM faction; Astra Militarum WLT, strats, and relics are unlocked for further list building.

 

1) Astra Militarum p. 132 -  Every unit in a detachment is Militarum Tempestus (or Auxiliary) --> every unit (except Auxiliary) in the detachment gains the Storm Trooper Regimental Doctrine.

 

2) Vigilus Defiant FAQ - The detachment has the Storm Trooper Regimental Doctrine; it is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment.

 

3) Vigilus Defiant p. 168-169 -  Spend CP to make the MT Detachment a Tempestus Drop Force (unlocking Field Commander strat, Grav-Chute Commando WLT, and Cypra Mundi Null-Emitter relic for further list building).

 

4) The Greater Good p. 64 - Each Militarum Tempestus unit gains the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword, which is then replaced by one of the six named regiments.

 

5) The Greater Good p. 64 - If all the MT units in the MT detachment (key point: it is pre-defined in TGG as being an MT detachment; it must already have Storm Troopers) have the same named regiment then all the units gain a Regimental Doctrine selected on p. 65. The selected Doctrine can replace Storm Troopers, but you've already unlocked Tempestus Drop Force.

 

6) Spend any additional CP on pre-game strats, assign WLT and relic(s).

 

The fact that they are taken "instead of" means that the detachment had to already have Storm Troopers doctrine prior to the new doctrine being taken. Thus, during the order of operations for building your force there is a time prior to the replacement of Storm Troopers where you can spend CP to gain the Drop Force specialist detachment rules.

Edited March 11, 2020 by jaxom

[KGatch113]

 

 

Q: Are the Militarum Tempestus Regimental Doctrines taken in addition to the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine listed in Codex: Astra Militarum, or instead of it?

A: They are taken instead of the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine in Codex: Astra Militarum. Note, if you wish to continue using your Militarum Tempestus Detachments as you currently have been, you can simply select the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine from page 65 in Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good

 

Odd that they didn't answer whether or not the scion regiments can use drop force.

 

Two ways to look at it:

 

1) "if you wish to continue using your Militarum Tempestus Detachments as you currently have been, you can simply select the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine from page 65" is important. If you've been using your MT detachments with the Tempestus Drop Force then you can continue to do so, but only if you select Storm Troopers.

 

2)  The answer about doctrines can fit into my previous logic because the above quote in 1 was actually referring to the specific benefit of Storm Troopers (extra hits at half-range) and not literally you can do whatever you've been doing so long as you take Storm Troopers. 

 

Okay - here's my theory on how the order of operations works (until we get a new FAQ which fixes this stupidity - seriously, who needed that FAQ when the AM codex is pretty clear on the matter):

 

 

 

0) Warhammer Rulebook p. 240 - Army units are mustered and they all have the ASTRA MILITARUM faction; Astra Militarum WLT, strats, and relics are unlocked for further list building.

 

1) Astra Militarum p. 132 -  Every unit in a detachment is Militarum Tempestus (or Auxiliary) --> every unit (except Auxiliary) in the detachment gains the Storm Trooper Regimental Doctrine.

 

2) Vigilus Defiant FAQ - The detachment has the Storm Trooper Regimental Doctrine; it is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment.

 

3) Vigilus Defiant p. 168-169 -  Spend CP to make the MT Detachment a Tempestus Drop Force (unlocking Field Commander strat, Grav-Chute Commando WLT, and Cypra Mundi Null-Emitter relic for further list building).

 

4) The Greater Good p. 64 - Each Militarum Tempestus unit gains the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword, which is then replaced by one of the six named regiments.

 

5) The Greater Good p. 64 - If all the MT units in the MT detachment (key point: it is pre-defined in TGG as being an MT detachment; it must already have Storm Troopers) have the same named regiment then all the units gain a Regimental Doctrine selected on p. 65. The selected Doctrine can replace Storm Troopers, but you've already unlocked Tempestus Drop Force.

 

6) Spend any additional CP on pre-game strats, assign WLT and relic(s).

 

The fact that they are taken "instead of" means that the detachment had to already have Storm Troopers doctrine prior to the new doctrine being taken. Thus, during the order of operations for building your force there is a time prior to the replacement of Storm Troopers where you can spend CP to gain the Drop Force specialist detachment rules.

 

The FAQ defines a Militarum Detachment as one that has...has....th Storm Trooper Doctrine, for purposes of the TDF. NO amount of rules lawyering is going to change that interpretation of the rules. 

[duz_]

Any more discussion focusing on rules interactions should move to the OR.

[KGatch113]

So, here's a tip for tactical use. 

So a strict interpretation of the rules as they are written is needed. First, the rules say you must pick a regiment. Then the rules say you gain a doctrine selected from the next page. Finally, the FAQ says if you want Storm Troopers, which you need for the TDF, you just select it from that page. 

Therefore, what you can do legally, RAW, is pick a regiment, and then you pick whatever doctrine you want. 

I'm looking at taking Iotan Gorgonnes for the ability to take daring descent with Lambden Lions -1 ap, on flamers. Be a good way to attack screens, and with a Prime giving FRFSRF on the hotshots in raid fire range at an additional -1, should be a killer!

What other tactical tricks do you see Stormtroopers able to do with mixed Strats and Doctrines?

[Shamansky]

I was thinking of flamers too, but average 3 shots and 12-24 more points stopped me. Hot-shot is free, FRFSRF gives 4 shots in rapid fire range,stratagem gives 4S, Lions doctrine gives -1AP. So with 3 CP (PRECISION DROP, POINT-BLANK EFFICACY, GIFTS FROM THE MECHANICUS) and 1 order you reliably get 37 4/-3/1 shots that deal mortal wound on 6 to-wound (which is 3 MW on average). MEQ will weep with blood.  But for 222 points (Valkyrie, Prime and 10 troopers), i'd stick with plasmaguns, because if you pay those points that's the time you know something WILL get hurt with less resources spent.

[jaxom]

With the benefit of BS3+ it's definitely more worthwhile to spend the points on bodies rather than flamers. For the Valkyrie, do others think the missile pods to stack chaff clearing or the rockets for some anti-tank punch? 

[Shamansky]

With the benefit of BS3+ it's definitely more worthwhile to spend the points on bodies rather than flamers. For the Valkyrie, do others think the missile pods to stack chaff clearing or the rockets for some anti-tank punch? 

That must be the real chaff. Otherwise not so effective.