Dumb to buy non-Primaris?

[Token]

Not sure if this has been talked about before, but:

Would it be dumb to buy non-Primaris models now? Do you think old marines will all be replaced by newer better ones?

[armarnis]

Right now non primaris are not worse or inferior, they are just different.

 

Imho, the marines reach full potential if both types are combined and i think gw will take care that both stay viable

[Karhedron]

I think original Marines will remain viable for some time and there are several roles that they can fulfill that Primaris strugle with.

 

Most Primaris units are mono-tasked with a single weapons loadout. Firstborn Marines score in terms of flexibility. Firstborn also still have the bulk of melee capability in Marine armies.

[Captain Idaho]

I do think Primaris will replace Classic Marines, but I also think we won't see that until at least the next edition of 40K. Likely the next Codex Space Marines will see a reduction in Classic Marine units, moving them over to Legends in a vague attempt to appease folk.

 

It's not soon but it will happen.

 

Actions speak louder than words - every action GW have taken support my view. Consider we don't see new Classic Marines despite kits needing updates, there has already been a shift of a few units to Legends and characters have been replaced with a Primaris equivalent.

 

So it becomes up to us whether we want to enjoy the last few years with a purchase of Classic Marines to bolster them, or not. Can you get enjoyment out of the purchases if they have a 3 year shelf life and move into Legends?.

[MARK0SIAN]

I would say that buying firstborn marines is still definitely a viable option. They perform well and have access to a lot of options that Primaris don’t.

 

Most importantly for me though, all of the character, individuality and distinctiveness of the different chapters comes from the firstborn model range. If you look at Space Wolves, DA or Blood Angels, the Primaris (even with an upgrade sprue) just look like Primaris with a different shoulder pad. Compare that to the Space Wolves Grey hunter set or the BA tactical squad or the DA Terminators and you’ll see what I mean.

 

The other thing is that almost all of the chapters unique units are firstborn. Death company, Ravenwing, Thunderwolves, Crusader squads etc have not been replicated as Primaris. So much so that, visually, a Primaris force feels like you’re just playing red marines, blue marines, grey marines etc. Firstborn models bring a lot to the table in that regard.

 

However, I do agree with Captain Idaho that I think the days of firstborn marines are numbered. Probably not for a couple of years but if you’re looking at building a future proof army then I would advise a bit more caution.

[Marshal Rohr]

If your army is based on a time period before the Gathering Storm, no.

[Jukkiz]

Old-marines/firstborn are replaced, at some point. that´s true. To me primaris offer some fancy models, but as whole, there´s limited options there for my tastes.

If you play the game, oldies and new marines are still good. Painting point though, you might be abit stunned by amount of painting there´s to do on primaris if you´ve only painted old-marines

[Kenzaburo]

Having painted my first Primaris marines now I somehow gotta say: Yeah, the new sculpts are nice and fun to paint. But for some reason I enjoy firstborn more - the smaller scale and all that. Actually, the ones I prefer the most are the Deathwatch veterans, which look a bit less out of place with Primaris as a stop-gap unit.

 

Still, if you had to decide now, I'd say: Primaris should be future-proof, sure. If you go for a certain time period, like Badab, go for firstborns. Or you create a classic marine army by kitbashing with Primaris and going sort of a truescale variant - MK 7 helmets look great on Primaris, the rest can basically stay the same - MK X is close enough to MK 8 errant armour, that the could be truescale.

 

Or you go full-on Horus Heresy, where you have glorious tiny marines fighting in epic battles, which is the only right decision, really. ;)

[Slave to Darkness]

I only buy old marines. My armies are and will remain Primaris free.

 

I admit they do look like fun conversion fodder for bigger chaos marines but I wont be taking that path for a while until my Slaaneshii army is finished, and I still have a lot to for them.

[Captain_Krash]

My SM armies are set during the Scouring and Badab war time periods. No Primaris for me, Period. Lots of unique units that Primaris don't have access too. It is not dumb to dive into firstborn.

 

Krash 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Captain_Krash

[Doghouse]

Personally I only buy Primaris. I think the change in the models is more about creating a solid owned IP and at some point can see the term space marines being replaced by the term Primaris even if that is still years away.

 

To me each has their own pros and cons, Primaris are really nicely proportioned but limited in poses as they feel to me like they are  produced in duplicate sprues so they can chuck them in starter sets and things and means you only need one mold. For someone like me this feels extremely limiting but this may change further down the line.

 

Space Marines on the other hand are really old badly proportioned heroic scale models but hands down have far more conversion potential and access to far more compatible parts.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with collecting space marines and I am sure the existing stuff will be supported for years to come but I can't see them getting anything new outside of Forgeworld.

[Captain Idaho]

I think the historical 40K element isn't touched upon by GW enough. Which is odd considering the rich character and opportunity for factions to get new and unique models for release that can move with the release windows and schedules of the business.

 

Battle of Maccragge, Badab, Armageddon, the Tyrannic Wars, War of the Beast etc 10,000 years to touch upon.

 

Thing is, GW will say we can play this alongside their Legends rules which doesn't help the Classic Marines...

[Beta galactosidase]

You should embrace change.

 

Ideally youd hand-convert primaris models back to the terrible proportions and deaths-head grills of real marines, but to play with other people who are buying corporate GW models you gotta get with the times. The old marine models and rules are going to be increasingly awkward to use. If you want to blame anything, blame capital and its power to recuperate any act of creativity and sell it back to you.

 

Really, blame capital, also buy one of your nerdier buddies a 3d printer.

[Captain_Krash]

@Beta galactosidase I agree with some of your points. But you don't need to change with the times. For instance wanna know how my group plays through the Badab war? With 5th edition the way it was intended right out of the FW books, along with Battlefleet Gothic. Now this isn't for everyone or everyone's play group but nothing is forcing you to use "GW's new hottness" rules set. People including myself have been playing Mordheim for the past 20 years (Man I feel old) and it hasn't stopped us just because GW decided to drop the game. 

 

Playing competitively yes of course you have to use the updated ruleset. But nothing is stopping anyone from doing what they want to do now or in the future. Like modeling with the old marines is a conversion dream despite the age of the models or the scale. They look incredible and very "Grimdark" if that is what you are looking for. When oldmarines eventually do die out, product wise nothing is going to stop me from building armies from the 10,000 year history of the 40,000 millennium and nor should anyone who wants too relive the glorious past prior to the return of a Primarch and the new age of the Primaris Space marine. 

 

(IE I'm very passionate about "oldhammer" models etc I just eat up old citadel and warhammer models from the 80s through early 2000s)

 

Krash

Edited February 22, 2020 by Captain_Krash

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I don't think its dumb to buy the classic marine kits. That said I would avoid anything that's not plastic because I would expect direct primaris replacements for those kits or even just shift to legacy rules.

 

Alot of the stronger marine options are first born and GW doesn't seem to be in any hurry to change that. They've also put a lot of care into not making the Primaris units direct replacements. To me that implies that they have no plans of removing the line up soon.

[Elzender]

Well, I think there are some considerations you could take into account to know whether firstborn marines are a good option for you:

 

- What would be the aim/scope of this project, getting an army to compete in your local store/tournaments, or more of a hobby project to build and convert a fantastically looking army? Maybe something in between?

 

- What's your pace of building and painting models? If you're like me, a lot of models can spend from months to years waiting from being bought to actually getting built, let alone painted. If your aim is to get an army to play in the competitive scene, but it may take you years to complete it, then you might get less mileage out of firstborn marines. On the other hand, if you can build/paint a normal sized army in about a couple of months, I think you will be able to enjoy the firstborn for a few good years before they hypothetically get phased out.

 

If you are more focussed on the modelling aspect, I think right now firstborn marines are basically undefeated when it comes to modelling opportunities, compared to anything else GW has to offer. The range of models is ridiculously high, and most kits are completely compatible with each other. Moreover, third party companies also offer a huge variety of bits to further personalise your army. It is true that primaris are compatible with heads, shoulder pads and even some arms, but the joint legs and torso of most models really limit the variation you can get and the opportunities to mix and match. I'm not saying it is impossible though, as plenty of threads around here have shown some magnific conversions using primaris, but it certainly makes it more difficult than the kitbashing possibilities firstborn have.

Plus, almost all firstborn infantry are based around the same armour (the different Mk patterns can be mixed freely), whereas primaris have three main armour variants (tacticus, phobos and gravis) plus minor variants like omnis, which in principle limits the kits you can bash together (nothing really stops you to mix the patterns, but I have no idea how good or bad can it end up looking).

Edited February 22, 2020 by Elzender

[Master Commander Ajax]

Maybe I’m overly optimistic but I think it’s still likely that, at some point, we’ll see updated ‘Old Marines’. I think GW would have preferred for the community to embrace the Primaris range and abandon ‘Old Marines’ all together but it’s become increasingly obvious that this hasn’t happened. GW over recent years has done well to listen to their fan base and produce models accordingly reading through this thread alone should be enough to tell you how popular an updated ‘Old Marine’ range would be. Which ever side of the debate you fall on I don’t think many would argue that the whole situation was mishandled and, as a result, both ‘Old Marines’ and Primaris are going to be around for the foreseeable future. So no, it’s not dumb to buy any Space Marine kit.

[Canadian_F_H]

Dumb? No.

 

The line will eventually age out i think. But seeing how some kits hung on for dear life for 2 decades, and a design and engineering process already paid for gets good ROI the longer it sticks around so long as it is selling.

 

Not that anything would shock me from GW lately. I dont see them ditching the marine line when so many kits are still viable and many have only been available for purchase for a few years like the assault marines and devastators and the chapter upgrade sprues for the big 4.

 

I do suspect we may see a slow wittling down of the line starying with the oldest kits. I wouldnt be surprised to see space marine bikers go first once bike equivelents for primaris arrive and have been around for a year or more.

 

 

Edit

 

Insidentally....

 

The horus heresy will eventually reach the siege of terra where the loyalists have secured thousands of suits of markVII power armour... They could literally repackage the current mark VII tacticals as horus heresy with a horus heresy loyalist transfer sheet and call ot a day.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Canadian_F_H

[Master Commander Ajax]

The horus heresy will eventually reach the siege of terra where the loyalists have secured thousands of suits of markVII power armour... They could literally repackage the current mark VII tacticals as horus heresy with a horus heresy loyalist transfer sheet and call ot a day.

GW have said before that they want to move onto the scourging after they’ve finished the Horus Heresy. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if we got a relaunch of the original Marine line as part of some sort of expansion similar to what they’re going to be doing with Warhammer: The Old World.

[Hymnblade]

From a competitive standpoint, all the best SM lists use a combination of Firstborn and Primaris, and that is unlikely to change any time soon. There are tons of roles and units that existing Primaris units cannot replace, like scouts, smash captains, centurions, contemptors, leviathans, vanguard veterans, and thunderfires.

 

It makes somewhat less sense to only buy Firstborn. Intercessors are almost strictly superior to tactical squads, for example.

[Johanhgg]

I buy old Marines and Will continue to do so. If/when they are phased out ill play a older edition with my gaming-group. The original Marines hold a place in my heart that primaris never ever gonna take. Hell, Ive even taken a step to 30k to keep playing the original dudes.

[Dracos]

Not sure if this has been talked about before, but:

Would it be dumb to buy non-Primaris models now? Do you think old marines will all be replaced by newer better ones?

 

Yes, it has been talked about before ... to death, but no reason xan't be discussed by civilized individuals again.

 

To answer you last question second, I would say yes. As mentioned when you start Primarisizing both  major (Marneus) and minor (Shrike) characters it's a good guess that eventually all that is old will become new again ... or go the Way of Legends.

 

Asking "Would it be dumb?" is a pretty open ended and potentially flame war type of question. Some people just love to hate it seems. Asking more direct question about Competitiveness or Conversion opportunities would be less potentially inflammatory and allow people to address your concerns more directly . . . other than just telling you their personal pet peeves or what they like / don't like about the Primaris and Firstborn ranges. 

 

You haven't responded to anyone before this though so ....

[chapter master 454]

A primaris thread without Ishagu in it yet? Wow...he must be ill or something 

 

But on a serious note: Ultimately, it is a choice you make based on what you like. Personally, if they axe old marines, just use them as counts as primaris. They are by all accounts just "old scale" marines really.

 

In fairness the new models do look really good though as a long time marine player, I miss the old method of assembly (a head, a back pack, 2 torso halves, 2 arms and a pair of legs!) but GW clearly don't want as much kitbashing anymore (but yet somehow do with how some of their publications are angling. Makes me think Primaris were born of Old GW but couldn't be stopped when New GW stepped in). In terms of table top their Anti-tank options suck and so do their melee options even after nearing 2 years? Their options are the executioner or they just spam more plasma than dark angels (and similarly in melee, they just punch A LOT instead of having actual melee weapons). However Their anti-infantry ability is extremely varied and capable to extremis, the fly boys with john woo heavy bolters are utter machines at scything down anything that walks, the intercessors are just straight up slobber knocker kings against other troops and their tanks of all kinds tend to just heap anything that has an automatic option onto it.

They may need old marines to cover melee and anti-tank, but in terms of infantry they have it well covered. Along with that their Eliminators are incredible effective pocket spearhead detachment, cheap and effective.

 

What can old marines offer currently? well really not much. Our anti-tank is far better and varied with nary a melta in the primaris armoury, we have access to any weapon we need. Thunderfire Cannons currently also are a sole domain of old marines due to an odd issue with primaris not have techmarines yet. Oh and our tanks use treads to grind the enemy to dust like real proper tanks do...none of this eldar heresy :P

 

Also...we have smash captains -drops mic and walks into triple executioner iron hands firepower-

[Dark Shepherd]

I would say no. IMO we are a lomg time away from it happening Edited February 28, 2020 by Dark Shepherd

[Dracos]

I wouldn’t say the anti-tank is bad as some make it. I play RG successor and used two 5 man Stalker bolt rifle teams to take a Helverin down to two wounds this weekend in Turn 0ne. Can’t imagine what IF or IH would have done to him.

 

Definitely need Primaris range expanded before giving up on Firstborn. Vehicles are easy enough to use with either and doesn’t ruin the Primaris “theme”. Love to see what they come up with for Primaris that serves as a Thundercannon like weapon.

 

As far as melee. I had a bolt rifle team and sgt with chainsword take down a Victix Guard the other day. Not to say I’d turn down storm shields ;)