Major nerf

[oldmanlee]

Looks like gw took a major nerf bat to marines

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/5e1be5c1.pdf

[Isual]

Well, we are nerfhammered again -.- Edited February 27, 2020 by Isual

[Grimdark_Garage]

Im ok with it. Its fluffy and benefits those that field a varied army.

 

First turn my TM, Sammy and Invictors get buffed

2nd and 3rd turn by Hellbalsters and Black Knights get buffed

 

The hardcore lists that rely on staying in dev doctrine will not have a good time.

[BaconCouch]

Its an overdue change. It should have honestly been that way from the get-go.

 

[Syphid]

Wow - kinda rips the guts out of our chapter doctrine. I was so close to putting heavy flamers back on my deathwing, too.

[Angel of Solitude]

Yeah, don’t think I’ll be adding heavy flamers to my speeders now. Turn 2 threat range of only 28” instead of 34” isn’t that attractive.

[G8Keeper]

At least its interesting and we won't just be sitting in devastator doctrine for 6/7 turns. Gets closer still to making me build a balanced list, I like it and it's pretty thematic with a marine army closing with the enemy too.

 

Of course, if you're a tournament player you're going to be pulling your hair out at having a list that lasted a month or so due to timing of the supplement and this faq.

Edited February 27, 2020 by G8Keeper

[sneakybamsen]

I like it. It feels like doctrines now work the way they were meant to be working. Yes, it's a fist in the nuts for the hardcore RW list I had been pondering, but since I am nowhere near the models for it, I have no problem not going that route :)

 

More varied armies make for better games, I heard ;)

[Guest MistaGav]

As part of the new PA book, we do have a Ravenwing Warlord trait that let's any RW units within 6" take a different doctrine to the one that's currently active once only. That means a solid RW firebase for turn 1, turn 2 pop that trait and have your stuff sitting back still firing away while your other rapid fire stuff get's the benefit of the -1ap from the tactical doctrine. Almost best of both worlds.

[Hantheman]

Good. Doesn’t hit us too hard but we’re still so much better with PA.

 

The strats/traits were the best part of PA

Edited February 27, 2020 by Hantheman

[Gederas]

Yeah, I don't see how this is a Nerf...... Oh no, we're supposed to NOT sit in Devastator Doctrine all game? :lol:

Gonna quote Dumah in the main Rules Changes thread:

I will admit it's ironic and not a little amusing that we're being forced to be flexible.  

We're Astartes. We're supposed to be flexible. Especially Dark Angels, seeing as how we have the Ravenwing and Deathwing.....

[Skywrath]

-

Edited February 27, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Berzul]

I like the way this makes a varied list better overall.

 

I agree that it sucks for pure speeder armies, which were BEASTS right now, but from a sense of fluff, fun and variety in armies out there, I like it. I don't see it as much of a nerf, really.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Berzul

[FarFromSam]

Gotta say, this is a big kick in the dick for us. Why even have a "super" doctrine if we use it for all of one turn? A lot of the stuff that benefits from the extra range deep strikes in starting turn two. Terminators which suffer from being kite-ed after deep striking are left short ranged again. If they moved our super doctrine to tactical I'm all for it. If we got the choice of what doctrine our super doctrine took effect, I'm back in. But, from what I can tell, it's only dev doctrine, and dev doctrine is only turn one now.

 

Food for thought, I see folk saying it makes for more balanced lists. Well, Dark Angel's are all about circles in circles, focusing on one aspect of war and perfecting it. Hexagrammaton. Why wouldn't certain lists stick to one doctrine.

Edited February 27, 2020 by farfromsam

[Berzul]

Gotta say, this is a big kick in the dick for us. Why even have a "super" doctrine if we use it for all of one turn? A lot of the stuff that benefits from the extra range deep strikes in starting turn two. Terminators which suffer from being kite-ed after deep striking are left short ranged again. If they moved our super doctrine to tactical I'm all for it. If we got the choice of what doctrine our super doctrine took effect, I'm back in. But, from what I can tell, it's only dev doctrine, and dev doctrine is only turn one now.

 

Food for thought, I see folk saying it makes for more balanced lists. Well, Dark Angel's are all about circles in circles, focusing on one aspect of war and perfecting it. Hexagrammaton. Why wouldn't certain lists stick to one doctrine.

See it like this.

 

Tactical Super Doctrines can work for up to two rounds

Assault Super Doctrines can work for up to five rounds

 

But you have to wait to use them.

 

We get ours from the get go, and it is useful right away. The extra range on weapons is ALWAYS useful. And from then on, you move closer. The balance is in that. In the fact that ours starts active and is 100% useful, while others require you to wait a few rounds, for your units to survive enough to use them.

 

Also, I don't agree with the way you present the dark angels. The Hexagrammaton is about a transversal cut through the legion as a whole, summoning the right group of units for the right job at any time. I'd say that the First Legion waged war through a very widespread use of combined strategy. And that reflects to this day. The codex is clearly MEANT to be used with the combination of wings (the mechanics not always suppiort this, but the meaning for the army is still there), which plays well into the way doctrines work now.

[Skywrath]

I do wonder though, with these nerfs, is that GW's way of saying to use more vehicles? My knowledge of the game is still pretty minimal compared to most, but having two tactical doctrines and then an assault doctrine round translates to in my mind: Land Raider + Deathwing Knights. Or a scenario of a Repulsor Executioner + Reiver Squad, something to that effect for primaris.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[jbaeza94]

I think 2 rounds max for dev and tac would have been ideal.

[Chaplain Elijah]

I don't believe our chapter doctrine will stay that way after those changes, i expect a PA4 Faq at some point.

[FarFromSam]

So long any incentive for pure DA. soup is back on the menu. Edited February 27, 2020 by farfromsam

[Berzul]

I don't believe our chapter doctrine will stay that way after those changes, i expect a PA4 Faq at some point.

It did get an errata, so far.

[Angel of Solitude]

On reflection, I like that this change forces variety in lists. My last list saw me stay in the devastation doctrine all game, due to the large number of heavy weapons across speeders and flyers.

 

Having to move into the Tactical doctrine now forces me to derive increased value from my bolter-based units - bikers and whatever troops I bring. And as for the assault doctrine, I’ve always had this idea of making Black Knights excel during this phase, but never managed to get to the assault doctrine to actually test it.

[Grand Master Raziel]

My thinking is this change pushes us farther towards running big Bike and Black Knight squads. They benefit from Tactical doctrine, and can also be credible assault threats. Take a RW Ancient and give him Fury of the Lion. We can potentially get S6 AP -2 BKs and S5 AP -1 Bike squads. That's some fairly credible assault power.

[hermanista]

Talonmaster, Tactically Flexible Trait.

 

Mess with the doctrines as needed.

[bigtrouble]

Well, dev doctrine was cool while it lasted. The doctrine rule change was completely unnecessary, and totally screwed Dark Angels.

[solarisqc]

I think it will have be better if you have the choice of Dev. or Tac. for turn 2. Playing board with lots of terrain turn 1 is more for getting into position and the extra range is useless for turn 1 because you don't have line of sight.

 

This change will  change the meta alot and marine with tactical or assault doctrine will have a good time until the next change in rules. It's bad for an armies like DA because it just remove lots of various build that was available with the new flexibility of the extra range.

 

I wish they change the DA chapter trait to add range now instead of reroll 1. i was making the DA alot more interresting to play.