Major nerf

[Hellunder]

I really can't see how hellblasters will benefit from this, they want longer range to rapid fire. Apart from that: this makes the choice easy: go for ravenwing, deathwing and/or lots of infiltrating units (since they can stay still and re-roll 1s). 

[Fierce Bear]

On reflection, I like that this change forces variety in lists. My last list saw me stay in the devastation doctrine all game, due to the large number of heavy weapons across speeders and flyers.

 

Having to move into the Tactical doctrine now forces me to derive increased value from my bolter-based units - bikers and whatever troops I bring. And as for the assault doctrine, I’ve always had this idea of making Black Knights excel during this phase, but never managed to get to the assault doctrine to actually test it.

I think you are right Angel, it forces more planning for the whole game not just gunline from the back.

 

In fact I think DA have now with the DW & RW traits and relics have the tools, terminators arriving with AP-1 and slamming into combat next turn with -4 ap powerfists or DW Knights -1 ap...

 

The other angle is that we won't be facing other Space Marines that are better off!

 

I think that applies also to the super doctrine, it's a useful T1 buff but master of mobility still makes speeders and attack bikes relevant?

[Knight Artorias]

Im ok with it. Its fluffy and benefits those that field a varied army.

 

First turn my TM, Sammy and Invictors get buffed

2nd and 3rd turn by Hellbalsters and Black Knights get buffed

 

The hardcore lists that rely on staying in dev doctrine will not have a good time.

Hellblasters getting -5 affects nothing if there's no prepared positions, so it affects nothing. BK getting -4 affects very little as well. Invictors stay good though, very strong with the flamer option.

 

Talonmaster, Tactically Flexible Trait.

 

Mess with the doctrines as needed.

 

Doesn't reactivate the super doctrine though. 

[Knight Artorias]

It would be great if DA got some kind of exception, and could use their super doctrine for the first two turns or something, but I highly doubt GW would do something like that. They have their pattern and they're going to stick with it. 

[Angel of Solitude]

Talonmaster, Tactically Flexible Trait.

 

Mess with the doctrines as needed.

That's only once-per-battle, and for a single Ravenwing unit. Impeccable Mobility is far more useful in my opinion, if not for utility - it's an always-on aura that affects any unit within 6" (including the Warlord).

[hermanista]

 

 

 

Talonmaster, Tactically Flexible Trait.

 

Mess with the doctrines as needed.

 

Doesn't reactivate the super doctrine though.

 

 

Why wouldn't it? The trait says

 

"Once per battle, at the start of the battle round, you can select a combat doctrine that is not currently active. Until the end of that battle round, when resolving an attack made by a model in a friendly RAVENWING unit within 6" of this Warlord, you can treat the chosen doctrine as being active instead of the currently active doctrine."

 

Meaning you can reactivate Devastator doctrine and those within 6" regain the benefit

[Angel of Solitude]

 

Im ok with it. Its fluffy and benefits those that field a varied army.

 

First turn my TM, Sammy and Invictors get buffed

2nd and 3rd turn by Hellbalsters and Black Knights get buffed

 

The hardcore lists that rely on staying in dev doctrine will not have a good time.

Hellblasters getting -5 affects nothing if there's no prepared positions, so it affects nothing. BK getting -4 affects very little as well. Invictors stay good though, very strong with the flamer option.

Getting the BK to AP-4 is very nice. Combine with WftDA and you're dealing out unsavable, Primaris-killing shots. Alternatively, you can take down Astra Militarum tanks with it too.

 

[hermanista]

It'll bring about a slight change of my tournament list I think, but overall a good change and I'm not too worried. Edited February 27, 2020 by hermanista

[Guest MistaGav]

Batallion
Talonmaster with Corvus Occular and Mobility
Sammael

2 x Flamer Invictors
3x5 Intercessors W Bolt Rifle
3 x Typhoon Landspeeders

2 x Suppressors

2 x Eliminators

 

Finally plucked up the courage once again to go into my GW and play a game using PA and the new nerf to doctrines. 1500 points vs CSM and pleased to say I came away with the win by end of turn 2. We could have gone on but most of his stuff was dead and other people wanted to use the table.

Sammael and talonmaster shred as ever. Invictors are fun to burn and punch stuff but the other guns are total pants. Eliminators are good as they 360 no scoped the Warlord. Supressors are a bit eh and sadly didnt get a chance to use my 3 landspeeders as they all got shot up by the havocs. I suppose they did their job of drawing fire. Next time I'll be looking at swapping the Suppressors for something else I think but not sure what.

[Solrac]

I feel they went too far with this nerf.

 

All they had to do was leave the Doctrine system as it was and tone down the Super Doctrines for Iron Hands and Imperial Fists as well as keeping all the other changes they made to Duty Eternal, Cogitated Martyrdom and Master of Ambush.

 

Now every marine player has been shoe horned into playing with a timer, forcing them to play a certain way rather than how the player wants to play. Furthermore it has created in-balance yet again because the Devastator Super Doctrines are now trash and armies that have a Super Doctrine in Tactical will get two turns to use theirs. Further to this White Scars are untouched which means they will be the new boogy man as they were just as powerful and the only reason they went under the radar was it was easier to play IH and IF.

 

They said they used "data" to make their decision but this is still a massive knee jerk reaction that has gone too far. Really bad rules writing.

[eternal_warrior12]

I’m good with this honestly. Turn one allows us to bring the pain out of reach, without the enemy having to move to engage. And from turn two on we can take advantage of all of the storm Bolter’s and power fisty goodness. I think it hurts Iron Hands and imperial fists way more than us.

[Berzul]

I will agree on the fact that it would have been best if it had been better if the Dev Doctrine could have been kept for two turns, like the tactical one.

[Solrac]

I’m good with this honestly. Turn one allows us to bring the pain out of reach, without the enemy having to move to engage. And from turn two on we can take advantage of all of the storm Bolter’s and power fisty goodness. I think it hurts Iron Hands and imperial fists way more than us.

Agree it has affected us less than most but a Super Doctrine we can only use in the Heavy Doctrine on Turn 1 is pointless.

 

If they changed our Super Doctrine to be the following it would have been just fine.

+ 6" to Heavy Weapons in Devastator Doctrine

+ 6" to Rapid Fire Weapons in Tactical Doctrine

+ 3" to Assault Weapons in Tactical Doctrine

+ 3" to Pistol Weapons in Assault Doctrine

 

This gives our flexibility back.

[Berzul]

 

I’m good with this honestly. Turn one allows us to bring the pain out of reach, without the enemy having to move to engage. And from turn two on we can take advantage of all of the storm Bolter’s and power fisty goodness. I think it hurts Iron Hands and imperial fists way more than us.

Agree it has affected us less than most but a Super Doctrine we can only use in the Heavy Doctrine on Turn 1 is pointless.

 

If they changed our Super Doctrine to be the following it would have been just fine.

+ 6" to Heavy Weapons in Devastator Doctrine

+ 6" to Rapid Fire Weapons in Tactical Doctrine

+ 3" to Assault Weapons in Tactical Doctrine

+ 3" to Pistol Weapons in Assault Doctrine

 

This gives our flexibility back.

 

I gotta say, this idea sounds amazing.

[FarFromSam]

What solrac said

[ValourousHeart]

Well at least I got one game in.  And I do remember thinking that this PA4 change was tailored to my speeder list.  So I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

 

I think the removal of Adaptive Strategy gives us a little more insight to why they limited Dev Doc to turn one only.  Given how well that DA flyer list did at that GT, most of his opponents didn't last 2 turns.

 

I just wonder why the casual community that isn't playing abusive lists always seems to be hurt the most when GW decides to lay down the nerf hammer against abuses that the tournament players engage in.  The pattern doesn't show that the Tournament players are making less abusive lists... in fact they seem to take it as a challenge to make the most abusive list.  And really the reason that Devastator Doctrine is so punishing at tournaments it due to the lack of terrain on the tables.

 

Oh well, I was playing my speeder list without combat doctrines before because I really enjoyed playing that list.  I don't think this is going to change much about how I play.

 

But all of this does bring up an interesting question.  If GW is so adamant about making changes to the game so that it is played their way... why don't they apply that heavy handedness to Tournaments about the proper amount of terrain to have on the board.  Or does GW expect players to not buy those big boxes of terrain?

[Cpt_Reaper]

We're more than Codex: Ravenwing. I am currently looking into how these changes affect Green- and Deathwing.

 

Because I like running 3rd Company supported by 1st and 2nd.

[Master Sheol]

I keep playing KillTeam only cause main 40k is still a joke Edited February 28, 2020 by Master Sheol

[Interrogator Stobz]

Remember, for some players, we are and legitimately so; Codex: Ravenwing.

To others we are Codex: Deathwing.

To others we are Codex: Greenwing.

To some we are Codex: Primaris.

And yet to others we are a mixture.

 

Taking the oomph from one type of play with this nerf is going to be a disappointment for some Dark Angel's players.

Others will be pleased, yet others will be ambivalent.

 

Let's All be respectful, accepting and constructive despite any differences please.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Interrogator Stobz

[Indefragable]

Completely hypothetical question:

 

How would you as a Dark Angel feel if Super Doctrine and half of Grim Resolve were swapped so that the re-roll 1’s if not moving applied during DevDoc and you got the +6”/+3” all the time instead?

[Cpt_Reaper]

My Hellblasters would cry, but my Tacital Squads would be pretty chuffed.

 

We would still be the Gunline Chapter, which is good.

[Master Sheol]

Having the super doctrine just turn one means that a opponent of the DA will deploy as far as he can so he will make us waste our super doctrine and in turn 2 he will advance toward us as we will be just a subpar marine army. The worst scenario is if the opponent is a tactical or assault marine chapter cause he will have several turns to use his super doctrine after we wasted ours.

 

The same situation is suffered by IF/CF too cause the opponent will Just hide his tanks and then move them from turn 2 when It will be safer.

 

To nerf one single chapter GW destroyed other three ones IMHO.

 

Good move GW. After writing those ugly rules for the AdC/SoS combo characters you made this unwanted nerf to DA/IF/CF in just two days (yes i know GW stated that in a following PA they stated that they will fix that AdC/SoS situation but i have a bad feeling about that too).

 

This is why i will keep playing KT only for now.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Master Sheol

[Skywrath]

Unpopular opinion, but hear me out.

 

I do believe the better question we should be asking ourselves is this - how hard were the other two OP factions (Raven Guard/Iron Hands) were hit, compared to us, Dark Angels. It was my impression that in the meta, us DA are mid-tier (tentatively low B tier, high C tier, I've been told), while the RG and the IH were S/A tier, respectively. Judging by the responses from the people here, the nerf for us wasn't that bad (this is taking the average of the responses, ignoring the multiple DA wings people play). Now assuming they (RG/IH) were hit hard enough with those nerfs, that might put the marine armies (at least) closer together in the meta. Which in turn, would ensure the marines are closer together in power level to each other, until 9th comes out (which is rumoured to be this year).

 

Unfortunately on the flip side, I am uncertain how the marines would stack up against other armies such as Eldar. Or the other SM armies.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[SnakeChisler]

On 1St read I was a bit peeved but after the froth had settled on my coffee getting -1 from rapid fire and assault weapons is a decent trade

 

DA for the most part have been a long haul army, many games have been won with just a couple of models left and most of my 1St turn angst has been over the range of plasma our main damage dealer of choice. I don't play comps often just some local stuff.

 

I'd already decided that the current build post PA4 of my list was going to play speeders Deathwing Knights and ravenwing bikes and the greenwing varient would be aggressors and stalker bolt rifles the only change to that is to go back to normal bolt rifles.

 

The Oculus on the Talon master is going to be an auto include as is the Deathwing ancient the buff to Azreal, Asmodai and Ezekiel is worth the 70 points and I'd have thought in the ITC meta the Deathwing Knights would fare well.

 

If your opponent tries to null deploy on T1 it's going to give you the run of the board for a turn, the change makes for a need for tactical flexibility, the only looses for us is standard Marines going to 30 was amazing tbh ravenwing Deathwing and primaris are better placed for tactical doctrines.

 

I may even try the 10 reivers I built and painted.

[oldmanlee]

Unpopular opinion, but hear me out.

 

I do believe the better question we should be asking ourselves is this - how hard were the other two OP factions (Raven Guard/Iron Hands) were hit, compared to us, Dark Angels. It was my impression that in the meta, us DA are mid-tier (tentatively low B tier, high C tier, I've been told), while the RG and the IH were S/A tier, respectively. Judging by the responses from the people here, the nerf for us wasn't that bad (this is taking the average of the responses, ignoring the multiple DA wings people play). Now assuming they (RG/IH) were hit hard enough with those nerfs, that might put the marine armies (at least) closer together in the meta. Which in turn, would ensure the marines are closer together in power level to each other, until 9th comes out (which is rumoured to be this year).

 

Unfortunately on the flip side, I am uncertain how the marines would stack up against other armies such as Eldar. Or the other SM armies.

 

Iron hands where totally broken from the get go but gw knew that when your playtesters tell you to push a codex back becuse it has major balance issues you might want to listen.but gw in all its wisdom put out a broken codex.

 

After sleeping on the changes I myself have come to the conclusion that I have no faith in gw anymore.ive been playing gw games for close to 30yrs and I'm now at the point where I just don't want to spend anymore money of models that might get rules changes at the drop of a hat. I know this is probably a bit of an extreme outlook and my mind might change when I've had a bit more time to think