FAQ changes Feb 2020

[Snazzy]

(I preface all of this by saying i am IF successors, mostly old marines)

 

 

 

Most likely not worth building specifically for it,aside from keeping WWs and TFs

 

 

Funny, i was considering phasing out my artillery because of the loss of Devastator Doctrine.  I just don't know how good they are without that extra -1.

 

I was thinking about leaning into an alpha strike with maybe something like an Executioner, Land Raider or even quad LC Predator, using Tank Hunters in order to just crush what i need in turn 1, minimizing the investment.  On the other hand, these changes take the fear out of people vehicles.  Really, the last thing this meta needs is more vehicles.

 

 

 

If I go for battalion+spearhead to spend less points on troops, that's 4 less CP. But post-FAQ if I had to go against any armor-heavy list, like knights or whatever, I'd be screwed. Most of the anti-tank I could lend-lease from my Templars on short notice as a last resort is oldmarine stuff  much of what no one seems to use much these days. Predator, Devastators. Dreadnoughts. Vindicators. A Whirlwind (well maybe two, but I had been planning on selling the other one as it is unbuilt; maybe not, then). Land Speeders in AT config. Technically could change the Centurions to AT config, but boy do they become expensive as such, much like the Land Speeders. I suppose I could also try to retain the basic Hellblasters from my non-tournament lists, but they're still only 1-2 damage per shot so they're not taking down knights any time soon.

 

The struggle is real.  Devastators with Plasma Cannons were a real asset to me in the past.  I might have to phase them out for drop pod Grav Cannons.  I am thinking that Eye of Hypnoth is going to be our new best friend with a bunch of Lascannons.

[Medjugorje]

I thought about starting it but am still trying to process it. 

 

My initial thoughts were It has now made legacy of dorn a moot point. We have no flexibility on its usage. First we have to have a opponent that brings vehicles, then we have to have weapons that can shoot them turn one, so all heavy weapons 36" and less are out, then our opponent has to have them not hidden so we can see them to shoot.

 

It seems like a change meant to hurt the IH and we were in the crossfire.

 

Other than that i think it pretty much sends most lists back to the drawing board and we now have to rethink the entire army. 

you have to go with Inceptors now... After the first round (while your devastor Thunderfire cannons) already freak out... your S5 -2AP a thousand shots could help as well and still being very Imperial Fist like

[tvih]

Shortlist right now would be something like this:

 

Battalion (Crimson Fists):
Captain (Primarch's Wrath, Power Sword)
Lieutenant (Hero of the Chapter, Fist of Vengeance)
3x5 Intercessors (Bolt rifle or Auto Bolt Rifle?)
Redemptor Dreadnought (Heavy Onslaught + Onslaught + Storm bolters + Rocket Pod)
1x3 Inceptor Squad (Assault Bolter)
1x3 Centurion Devastators (HB+Hurricane)
1x5 Hellblasters (Plasma Incinerator)
Repulsor Executioner (Laser Destroyer, Rocket Pod, Ironhail)
Stormtalon Gunship or Predator or Invictor

 

Spearhead (Crimson Fists):
Librarian
1x3 Eliminator Squad
2x Whirlwind
1x Thunderfire Cannon

 

The "good" thing is that I'd only need to finish painting the Executioner and a Whirlwind turret (and bits of the second one) compared to the pre-FAQ dual battalion list which would've required at least 17 infantry models etc. Not sure on the Stormtalon/Predator/Invictor choice. Invictor would at least be in CF colors while the other two are Templars since I haven't gotten the CF ones painted.

Edited February 28, 2020 by tvih

[jeremy1391]

To get the most out of only having one turn of our super doctrine I think indirect fire and speed will be how we get the most out of it...

 

So artillery land speeders and planes.

[Wassa]

I think thats how you're going to have to go.

 

Otherwise I'll deploy conservatively and give you first turn :)

[Snazzy]

To get the most out of only having one turn of our super doctrine I think indirect fire and speed will be how we get the most out of it...

 

So artillery land speeders and planes.

 

Praetorian's Wrath last until your next Movement Phase.  I might try building around that, and an Ancient.  Embrace casualties in the enemy's turn, use the Banner to get extra shooting that benefits from Devastator Doctrine, Legacy of Dorn, and Praetorians Wrath.  Could Gravitic Amplification could be used in the enemy's turn?

 

Captain (Primarch's Wrath, Power Sword)

 

 

Primarch's Wrath is so good for IF/CF and it was overlooked because they were never encouraged to use Tactical Doctrine.  I'm genuinely reconsidering the value of The Spartean now that Assault Doctrine is no longer optional. 

[Terrified Templar]

(I preface all of this by saying i am IF successors, mostly old marines)

 

 

 

Most likely not worth building specifically for it,aside from keeping WWs and TFs

 

 

Funny, i was considering phasing out my artillery because of the loss of Devastator Doctrine.  I just don't know how good they are without that extra -1.

 

 

Thunderfire Cannons are still good without the extra -1 in other turns and I think they'll be even more valuable to Imperial Fist lists going forward. With the changes in place opponents will hide their vehicles turn 1 to try and negate our first turn super doctrine but Thunderfire cannons just don't care where they hide because of their 60" range and indirect fire, writing lists now I feel that duel Thunderfire Cannons are almost a necessity since they basically laugh at any attempt to escape them. It'd be expensive CP wise but Suppression Fire plus Tank Hunters and you'll be throwing out 12 d3 shots hitting on 2+ and wounding on 4+ and doing 2 damage on the first turn. Not to mention they are a good source of anti-infantry and Tremor Shells help slow down large blobs so they'll still be useful even after turn 1.

 

Writing up some new lists to adjust, thankfully our super doctrine is kinda situational in the first place so its more focusing on traditional AT weapons that don't really care about what kind of doctrine they are in and shying away from going overboard on weapons like heavy bolters, heavy onslaught gatling cannons, and assault cannons that actually got some serious mileage in the doctrine. Gonna miss the built in AT firepower especially when going up against a friend's Imperial Knight list (gulp) but it is what it is. Hoping they'll put back in Adaptive Strategy, funny how in the name of flexibility they take away a stratagem that gives you...well flexibility. 

[Lemondish]

To get the most out of only having one turn of our super doctrine I think indirect fire and speed will be how we get the most out of it...

 

So artillery land speeders and planes.

Indirect fire was how tournament players were getting the most out of it already, but only because it applied throughout the entire match.

 

I think you'll need to maximize chance at wounding, and that needs to come from high str weapons.

 

Seriously, having Legacy of Dorn all the time made the already criminally undercosted TFC a dual purpose weapon. It made all of our mid str high rof low damage weapons really good at killing vehicles across an entire match.

 

I don't think the solution for handling the changes is going to be embracing the builds of the previous meta.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Lemondish

[Gree]

Starting to contemplate how to squeeze out the most from Devastator Doctrine while we have it.

 

I would consider the Devastator Doctrine to more of a extra bonus than something to build a list around. For Fists I would focus on the Chapter Tactic and the Tactical Doctrine.

[War Angel]

 

Starting to contemplate how to squeeze out the most from Devastator Doctrine while we have it.

 

 

I would consider the Devastator Doctrine to more of a extra bonus than something to build a list around. For Fists I would focus on the Chapter Tactic and the Tactical Doctrine.

This. I’ll add that “squeezing the most out of devistator docterine” is probably why we only get one turn of it now.

[tvih]

 

Primarch's Wrath is so good for IF/CF and it was overlooked because they were never encouraged to use Tactical Doctrine.  I'm genuinely reconsidering the value of The Spartean now that Assault Doctrine is no longer optional. 

I've been using it all in my "mono-CF" games so far, it is definitely a very nice weapon. And with Tac Doctrine it will indeed be a touch more powerful yet!

[BitsHammer]

I was talking about this elsewhere on the internet, as I kept seeing IF brought up as being crippled by this change, and I of course had my own thoughts:

Basically, the IF were written, at least in my opinion, to flow through the doctrines every turn to basically peel the opponent's army apart. Devastator doctrine was to help peel your opponent out of their vehicles (and imaginary buildings we know no one takes), tactical lets you clear chaffe (while ignoring cover with your bolters, and getting Bolter Discipline on them) and the assault doctrine still buffs bolt pistols (something we can still get bolter dscipline buffs on) and the IF have a relic to help buff the late game melee hammer: The Banner of Staganda: "IMPERIAL FISTS ANCIENT model only. When resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model in an IMPERIAL FISTS unit that is within 6" of a friendly model with this Relic, add 1 to the hit roll."

Note that is effectively a bubble 12" you only have to touch with a single model to benefit from, and it means you're hitting with no penalty with power fists or thunder hammers (or hitting even better with other power weapons). Basically the IF have tools to benefit in every doctrine (not to mention a nice Power Fists relic that hits on 2+ with the banner buff) which creates an idea of them systematically tearing down their enemy's defenses systematically. First goes the armour, then goes the chaffe, then they hit what's left at the heart of the enemy's position (I'm also an advocate for running Primaris IF in what I call Dorn's Moving Castle where you run a buffstar up the board supporting various elements of the army to capture midfield).

 

I honestly stand by that take on the army more so than ever. Even if you don't take the banner, the fact that nearly every model in our army comes with bolt pistols only helps us even further.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Fulkes

[Happy-inquisitor]

If you had a skew list which was leaning heavily on the super-doctrine that is going to hurt.

 

For me it makes me feel better about the way I wanted to run my CF anyway. In my one tournament with them I only stayed in Devastator Doctrine in the game against an almost pure AM artillery parking lot - a skew tactic to deal with a skew opponent. In my other games i switched to Tactical Doctrine on turn 2 or 3 anyway to make the most of my bolters. In many ways my Incursors were turning out to be my star units, I think they actually get better if I am encouraged/forced to go to Tactical and Assault doctrines sooner. In my list the Suppressors would seem to be the losers but I need to see how that plays out with the Assault Doctrine, if they switch from vehicle killers to overwatch suppressors as the game progresses they might still earn their places.

 

This does make me want to work a bit harder on sourcing some power fists for my intercessor sargeants and looking a bit harder at how to make the most of Assault Doctrine to finish things off in the endgame. I was using assault to just slingshot my troops onto objectives in the endgame and even before this change I was thinking that I was not making the most of it.

 

It will not change my list building too much - if anything it encourages me to go toward the Impulsor build which I already thought could be both good and fun.

[War Angel]

This actually benefits me so much. Now I won’t be punished for playing my chapter how I designed them. City clearers. We don’t sit in a gun line, we advance and clear each building, each street, each sector.

[BitsHammer]

This actually benefits me so much. Now I won’t be punished for playing my chapter how I designed them. City clearers. We don’t sit in a gun line, we advance and clear each building, each street, each sector.

It's the way I see how to play them too.

[Lemondish]

If you had a skew list which was leaning heavily on the super-doctrine that is going to hurt.

 

For me it makes me feel better about the way I wanted to run my CF anyway. In my one tournament with them I only stayed in Devastator Doctrine in the game against an almost pure AM artillery parking lot - a skew tactic to deal with a skew opponent. In my other games i switched to Tactical Doctrine on turn 2 or 3 anyway to make the most of my bolters. In many ways my Incursors were turning out to be my star units, I think they actually get better if I am encouraged/forced to go to Tactical and Assault doctrines sooner. In my list the Suppressors would seem to be the losers but I need to see how that plays out with the Assault Doctrine, if they switch from vehicle killers to overwatch suppressors as the game progresses they might still earn their places.

 

This does make me want to work a bit harder on sourcing some power fists for my intercessor sargeants and looking a bit harder at how to make the most of Assault Doctrine to finish things off in the endgame. I was using assault to just slingshot my troops onto objectives in the endgame and even before this change I was thinking that I was not making the most of it.

 

It will not change my list building too much - if anything it encourages me to go toward the Impulsor build which I already thought could be both good and fun.

 

The Ancient banner with +1 to hit in melee seems like a fantastic option here. 

[Wassa]

For me it makes me feel better about the way I wanted to run my CF anyway. In my one tournament with them I only stayed in Devastator Doctrine in the game against an almost pure AM artillery parking lot - a skew tactic to deal with a skew opponent.

To be fair, depending on regiment, Guard are always meant to win the heavy shooting war vs marines. Marines are meant to be jack of all trades with slight bonuses in specialized areas, so they really need to look at all aspects phases of the game.

[Captain Caine 24th]

I mean surely 2000pts benefiting every turn is optimal if everything has a Target to shoot. It makes sense to capitalize on T1 bonuses. "Alpha strike" As an army takes losses over the game, it's most powerful at the start. Dishing out punishment early is more effective. In this case though the doctrines were good enough to remain in most of the game. It looks to me like GW saw IF and IH were keeping efficiency though the whole game contrary to their intent. So, despite my Lamentations, suppose the question now is what to do about it. Design an army split into 1/3rds to use each doctrine? Lysander comes to mind. Or, Take allies that Excel at each in different detachments to maximize available doctrines and special rules(e.g. IF for devastator, UM for tactical, BA for assault)?? Hmmmm... Food for thought.

[Fenriwolf]

(I preface all of this by saying i am IF successors, mostly old marines)

 

 

 

Most likely not worth building specifically for it,aside from keeping WWs and TFs

 

 

Funny, i was considering phasing out my artillery because of the loss of Devastator Doctrine.  I just don't know how good they are without that extra -1.

 

 

Thunderfires will still be good (they were used before the superdoctrine after all). 

And both them and WWs are probably the only weapon platform that still benefits from the superdoctrine turn 1 without having to rely on the opponent being unable to hide veichles

Edited March 1, 2020 by Fenriwolf

[War Angel]

I mean surely 2000pts benefiting every turn is optimal if everything has a Target to shoot. It makes sense to capitalize on T1 bonuses. "Alpha strike" As an army takes losses over the game, it's most powerful at the start. Dishing out punishment early is more effective. In this case though the doctrines were good enough to remain in most of the game. It looks to me like GW saw IF and IH were keeping efficiency though the whole game contrary to their intent. So, despite my Lamentations, suppose the question now is what to do about it. Design an army split into 1/3rds to use each doctrine? Lysander comes to mind. Or, Take allies that Excel at each in different detachments to maximize available doctrines and special rules(e.g. IF for devastator, UM for tactical, BA for assault)?? Hmmmm... Food for thought.

I think the change opens up more options while keeping the old top tier list still an option as well. If you max out your devistator docterine firepower, sure, you won’t be benefitting as much on later turns, but your plan would be to hope that the additional damage delt turn one has swayed the tide enough in your favor that you don’t need the extra AP. If you go 1/3 split into each phase, you won’t hit as hard turn one, but that power will be spread out better.

 

 

As for taking allies, the super docterine is only available If your entire army is that chapter. Docterines are only available if the entire army is astartes. So if you take ultramarines as an ally for your tactical turns, all your getting is units that can fall out of CC and still shoot (you would be better off with more bolt weapons in imperial fists.

[tvih]

 

 

The Ancient banner with +1 to hit in melee seems like a fantastic option here. 

 

Hmm... I've kinda overlooked that one since I've never used an Ancient so far. I've used the Primaries Ancient from DI as an Intercessor (and kinda need him for that currently) - but I do have this "fancy" MkIV banner dude from Forgeworld who would certainly fit the bill given the title of "Ancient"  Pair him up with Kantor for +1A aura. Though my only actual CF melee units currently are terminators, but would be something for a casual game. Add a smash captain and null zone + might of heroes librarian to the mix just for kicks?  

 

That aside, I adjusted my tournament list plan to swap my usual lieutenant to a Primaries one with Duty's Burden. That's a fairly scary gun, given the extra range over Primarch's Wrath... and having both at the same time is a double-whammy! Oh... and I did just notice Bellicos Bolt Rifle. That'd be a TRIPLE-WHAMMY! If only I had the CP and points for all four :P In any case taking either Bellicos or Duty's Burden loses out on the Fist of Vengeance that way though

[jeremy1391]

Doing some quick testing a 6 man inceptor squad in an “indomitus crusaders” Detatchment dropping in with a jump pack chapter master with the eye of hypnoth if you use the grey shield ability to pop “no matter the odds” in conjunction with the bolter still strat and tank hunter there is no vehicle that statistically will survive the inceptors shooting.

[Snazzy]

 

I honestly stand by that take on the army more so than ever. Even if you don't take the banner, the fact that nearly every model in our army comes with bolt pistols only helps us even further.

 

Yeah, for CFs and actual IFs this all works out ok.  I'm still contemplating how well this all works out for any combination of Successors traits.  

 

 

 

Thunderfires will still be good (they were used before the superdoctrine after all). 

And both them and WWs are probably the only weapon platform that still benefits from the superdoctrine turn 1 without having to rely on the opponent being unable to hide veichles

 

 

The more i dwell on it, the more i think Legacy of Dorn allows the Whirlwinds to join in the anti tank fun, then get back to their real job, smashing infantry.  The extra -1 would be nice, but maybe not at the expense of staying in Devastator Doctrine the entire game.  I will say this this change has me rethinking my assumptions about Castellan vs Vengeance.

 

 

And, yes, the Banner is good.  Ancients have been awesome ever since the latest Codex came out.  Turn breaking, the ability to inflict damage on your opponent in their turn is a huge potential swing.  IFs are well suited for this because we are encouraged to take Power Fists and Thunder Hammers.  You get one Melee attack.  Might as well make it a Power Fist that balances out the to-hit penalty.

 

I am toying with a Master Crafted Combi-Plasma on either a Captain or Lieutenant and using the +1 to wound against Vehicles and Buildings WLT.  The other one i was toying with is a Combi-Melta with Gatebreaker Bolts.  Thoughts and opinions welcomed.

[Gree]

I would still consider taking stalker bolters and Thunderfire cannons. They just went from ''auto-take'' to ''pretty solid''. Stalker bolters aren't a mainstay anymore, but they have their uses.

[War Angel]

I would still consider taking stalker bolters and Thunderfire cannons. They just went from ''auto-take'' to ''pretty solid''. Stalker bolters aren't a mainstay anymore, but they have their uses.

That’s what I’ve been saying. And I’m glad there’s no longer an auto take. Auto takes feel like we’re forced.