Watchers of the Throne 2: The Regent's Shadow

[Kelborn]

That's of course possible.

Start a new thread and I can move them over there.:)

[rendingon1+]

That's of course possible.

Start a new thread and I can move them over there.

Done

[aa.logan]

Finished this on a beautiful frosty early walk this morning.

 

Overall, it’s *really* good.

 

I was a bit disappointed to see that Tireon was no longer a PoV character, as he was one of my favourite parts of the first book, but Jek stepped up to the plate in terms of both her promotion and her role in telling the story. The use of three distinct voices and an oral history style approach really pushes this series into the higher echelons of BL fiction. As I’ve said, the characters are very well written and since it was an audio, I have to say well performed- I’m happy to see the continuation of canonically Yorkshire Imperial Fists. The book starts and finishes really strongly, but perhaps tails off in the middle

vaguely related, I’d really like to see a story one day where an investigation like Aleya’s going down a bunch of dead ends, before she goes and wrecks ‘revenge’ on a wholly innocent party. The Imperium most do that pretty often, really...

, but throughout Chris adds layer upon layer of Terra- there’s no equivalent of the vellum chapter here, but in terms of politicking and the uneasy way the various agencies of the Imperium rub against each other, it’s fantastic.

 

Early on, Chris Wraight totally nails life on Terra with Jek’s declaration that she was ‘privileged enough to have leant a little history’ (apologies for the rough quote from memory); so much of the Imperium’s existence has seen them repeating the mistakes of the past, and having such a high-ranking member of the upper echelons of government say that is so very revealing.

 

Aleya’s Shania Twain-esque initial reaction to meeting Guilliman also delighted me- effectively thinking “you’re tall. That don’t impress me much” (apologies once again, this time for the reference and resulting earworm). As the earlier discussion covers, the book does acknowledge the importance of physical bulk and martial prowess but also recognises that however militaristic the Imperium is, it needs more than just strength of arms to govern it. She acknowledges on that, on paper at least, it’s reckless in the extreme for the Primarch to be out leading the crusade- he’s such a valuable asset, why is he risking himself on the battlefield, which has always struck me as pertinent, but this is pretty well justified.

 

In the audio, I’d say that the atmospheric closing music came in a touch too early as it almost overshadowed the implication that

Guilliman orchestrated the Trajan’s orchestrations and that he’s very much a political animal cut out for operating in the corruption of Terra

[Fire Golem]

Finished this on a beautiful frosty early walk this morning.

 

Overall, it’s *really* good.

 

I was a bit disappointed to see that Tireon was no longer a PoV character, as he was one of my favourite parts of the first book, but Jek stepped up to the plate in terms of both her promotion and her role in telling the story. The use of three distinct voices and an oral history style approach really pushes this series into the higher echelons of BL fiction. As I’ve said, the characters are very well written and since it was an audio, I have to say well performed- I’m happy to see the continuation of canonically Yorkshire Imperial Fists. The book starts and finishes really strongly, but perhaps tails off in the middle

vaguely related, I’d really like to see a story one day where an investigation like Aleya’s going down a bunch of dead ends, before she goes and wrecks ‘revenge’ on a wholly innocent party. The Imperium most do that pretty often, really...

, but throughout Chris adds layer upon layer of Terra- there’s no equivalent of the vellum chapter here, but in terms of politicking and the uneasy way the various agencies of the Imperium rub against each other, it’s fantastic.

 

Early on, Chris Wraight totally nails life on Terra with Jek’s declaration that she was ‘privileged enough to have leant a little history’ (apologies for the rough quote from memory); so much of the Imperium’s existence has seen them repeating the mistakes of the past, and having such a high-ranking member of the upper echelons of government say that is so very revealing.

 

Aleya’s Shania Twain-esque initial reaction to meeting Guilliman also delighted me- effectively thinking “you’re tall. That don’t impress me much” (apologies once again, this time for the reference and resulting earworm). As the earlier discussion covers, the book does acknowledge the importance of physical bulk and martial prowess but also recognises that however militaristic the Imperium is, it needs more than just strength of arms to govern it. She acknowledges on that, on paper at least, it’s reckless in the extreme for the Primarch to be out leading the crusade- he’s such a valuable asset, why is he risking himself on the battlefield, which has always struck me as pertinent, but this is pretty well justified.

 

In the audio, I’d say that the atmospheric closing music came in a touch too early as it almost overshadowed the implication that

Guilliman orchestrated the Trajan’s orchestrations and that he’s very much a political animal cut out for operating in the corruption of Terra

It’s a shame about that last part, because I thought those final two lines or so were brilliant.

 

I really love the ‘Doran Martell’ thing in fiction where there’s characters who people see as useless or over cautious or whatever, and then it turns out they’ve been playing a long game of 3D chess the entire time. And it applies to both Valoris and Guilliman in this book.

[Dumah]

Question for those who have finished the book:

 

Does Ivanus Enkomi make any kind of appearance, or is he mentioned at all?

[Fire Golem]

Question for those who have finished the book:

 

Does Ivanus Enkomi make any kind of appearance, or is he mentioned at all?

Not that I caught.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Question for those who have finished the book:

 

Does Ivanus Enkomi make any kind of appearance, or is he mentioned at all?

Nope.

[Lucifer216]

While I thought it was very well thought out, I think the structure of the overall plot was a bit unsatisfying due to the lack of agency displayed by all three of the major characters/narrators. If they were not present at all, then the outcome of the novel would have been completely unaffected (this even gets said in character at one point). I felt this particularly strongly with Jek as she never really got a chance to show her competence in her new role. 

[Ishagu]

Just finished this and it was excellent. Probably the best of the 40k novels in terms of pure political games and plotting. Edited March 17, 2020 by Ishagu

[Izlude]

Just got the ebook and recently reread The Emperor's Legion to refresh my memory (and also a damn good book). I definitely love the Tieron stuff best as it is Terra politics at its finest. The Aleya stuff was okay and probably my least favorite arc but Chris did a gret job merging her arc with Valerian's arc. I definitely enjoyed Valerian's view being a Custodian and their interaction with the Grey Knights. Of course as a XIII whore the Guilliman's stuff was awesome.

 

So far read the first two chapters for this one and obviously quite strong. Early but Jek seems okay, definitely prefer Tieron but we'll see.  Looking forward to the rest!

[Felix Antipodes]

Finished and another great read from Wraight. I really wish GW would incorporate more of the background from the BL books into their background/codex books. I hear rumours of this beginning to happen but not enough IMHO.

 

I especially enjoyed how Wraight managed to continue to maintain an air of mystery (or outright misdirection) whilst still progressing the storyline. For instance

We still don't really know who was behind the attack on the SoS fortress. Everyone either blamed Slyst or the Ecclesiarchy in general but it was never really proven. For all we really know it was part of Trajan's plan

 

The only thing in the story the kept niggling at me and pulling me out of the story was

Guilliman sacking the ruling Ecclesiarch and appointing a replacement. I found it hard to believe he could waltz up and do this without a riot across multiple worlds. Ecclesiarchs are appointed by their peers according to the fluff and are not government appointed

 

Liked the portrayal of the Minotaurs. I wonder if their obviously false story regarding their geneseed losses was just an excuse to jump the queue and get their hands on the Primaris technology/personnel ahead of their rival Chapters?

Edited March 23, 2020 by Felix Antipodes

[Lord_Caerolion]

Actually, given how early on they arrive, and how recently the Primaris tech had been announced, I wouldn't be surprised if the initial call wasn't during the events of the first book. There was significant friction between the High Lords then too, I wouldn't be surprised if the High Lord of the Administratum hadn't called them as soon as Guilliman showed up.

[StrangerOrders]

The book was fabulous as I said earlier but there was particular fun point I was hoping to discuss.

 

Was anyone else delighted by the fact that the Cult was responsible for the extinction of the original Sisters?

It seemed like the sort of idiocy that isn't silly but immensely self-destructive even as the book establishes how it would make sense in the head of a raving fanatic. 'They have no souls right? Then they can't be saved!'

For bonus points, I loved how well the book highlighted the stark differences between the Custodes, the Sisters , the Fists and the Minotaurs. At no point are any of them portrayed as being dimwits or inferior, they all have strengths and weaknesses they have to work around and that is pretty great.

Heck, even the Cultists got a good showing with the leader that leveraged her competitor's motivations to secure her own survival.

[Moonreaper666]

Finished and another great read from Wraight. I really wish GW would incorporate more of the background from the BL books into their background/codex books. I hear rumours of this beginning to happen but not enough IMHO.

 

I especially enjoyed how Wraight managed to continue to maintain an air of mystery (or outright misdirection) whilst still progressing the storyline. For instance

We still don't really know who was behind the attack on the SoS fortress. Everyone either blamed Slyst or the Ecclesiarchy in general but it was never really proven. For all we really know it was part of Trajan's plan

 

The only thing in the story the kept niggling at me and pulling me out of the story was

Guilliman sacking the ruling Ecclesiarch and appointing a replacement. I found it hard to believe he could waltz up and do this without a riot across multiple worlds. Ecclesiarchs are appointed by their peers according to the fluff and are not government appointed

 

Liked the portrayal of the Minotaurs. I wonder if their obviously false story regarding their geneseed losses was just an excuse to jump the queue and get their hands on the Primaris technology/personnel ahead of their rival Chapters?

I thought their losses were due to the Death Guard and their plague infecting the stored geneseed? Or am I confusing them with the Space Sharks?

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Finished and another great read from Wraight. I really wish GW would incorporate more of the background from the BL books into their background/codex books. I hear rumours of this beginning to happen but not enough IMHO.

 

I especially enjoyed how Wraight managed to continue to maintain an air of mystery (or outright misdirection) whilst still progressing the storyline. For instance

We still don't really know who was behind the attack on the SoS fortress. Everyone either blamed Slyst or the Ecclesiarchy in general but it was never really proven. For all we really know it was part of Trajan's plan

 

The only thing in the story the kept niggling at me and pulling me out of the story was

Guilliman sacking the ruling Ecclesiarch and appointing a replacement. I found it hard to believe he could waltz up and do this without a riot across multiple worlds. Ecclesiarchs are appointed by their peers according to the fluff and are not government appointed

 

Liked the portrayal of the Minotaurs. I wonder if their obviously false story regarding their geneseed losses was just an excuse to jump the queue and get their hands on the Primaris technology/personnel ahead of their rival Chapters?

I thought their losses were due to the Death Guard and their plague infecting the stored geneseed? Or am I confusing them with the Space Sharks?

No, it was the Minotaurs who apparently had their Fortress Monastery invaded by the Death Guard who infected their geneseed stores. Only issue is, the Minotaurs are fleet-based, so they don’t have a Fortress Monastery, hence the accusations of subterfuge.

[Karthak]

Aleya’s Shania Twain-esque initial reaction to meeting Guilliman also delighted me- effectively thinking “you’re tall. That don’t impress me much” (apologies once again, this time for the reference and resulting earworm). As the earlier discussion covers, the book does acknowledge the importance of physical bulk and martial prowess but also recognises that however militaristic the Imperium is, it needs more than just strength of arms to govern it. She acknowledges on that, on paper at least, it’s reckless in the extreme for the Primarch to be out leading the crusade- he’s such a valuable asset, why is he risking himself on the battlefield, which has always struck me as pertinent, but this is pretty well justified.

 

I liked that not even Aleya was completely unaffected by meeting Guilliman:

 

But he had something, I’ll give him that. It was hard to look him in the eye. You could not have laughed at him.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

Finished and another great read from Wraight. I really wish GW would incorporate more of the background from the BL books into their background/codex books. I hear rumours of this beginning to happen but not enough IMHO.

 

I especially enjoyed how Wraight managed to continue to maintain an air of mystery (or outright misdirection) whilst still progressing the storyline. For instance

We still don't really know who was behind the attack on the SoS fortress. Everyone either blamed Slyst or the Ecclesiarchy in general but it was never really proven. For all we really know it was part of Trajan's plan

 

The only thing in the story the kept niggling at me and pulling me out of the story was

Guilliman sacking the ruling Ecclesiarch and appointing a replacement. I found it hard to believe he could waltz up and do this without a riot across multiple worlds. Ecclesiarchs are appointed by their peers according to the fluff and are not government appointed

 

Liked the portrayal of the Minotaurs. I wonder if their obviously false story regarding their geneseed losses was just an excuse to jump the queue and get their hands on the Primaris technology/personnel ahead of their rival Chapters?

I thought their losses were due to the Death Guard and their plague infecting the stored geneseed? Or am I confusing them with the Space Sharks?

No, it was the Minotaurs who apparently had their Fortress Monastery invaded by the Death Guard who infected their geneseed stores. Only issue is, the Minotaurs are fleet-based, so they don’t have a Fortress Monastery, hence the accusations of subterfuge.

Maybe they do or did but it was secret until the Death Guard attacked. I doubt they would show up and add stress to their High Lord masters if it wasn't serious. They were definitely attacked and need a lot of support even if the details are iffy

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

The Minotaurs are fleet-based. They are the attack dogs of the High Lords. And they are as likable as Marines Malevolent.

Being the High Lords attack dogs gave them the first pick of gear. Not many Chapters have Contemptor Dreadnoughts. It's not surprising they would run back to Terra.

[Vazzy]

 

 

 

Finished and another great read from Wraight. I really wish GW would incorporate more of the background from the BL books into their background/codex books. I hear rumours of this beginning to happen but not enough IMHO.

 

I especially enjoyed how Wraight managed to continue to maintain an air of mystery (or outright misdirection) whilst still progressing the storyline. For instance

We still don't really know who was behind the attack on the SoS fortress. Everyone either blamed Slyst or the Ecclesiarchy in general but it was never really proven. For all we really know it was part of Trajan's plan

 

The only thing in the story the kept niggling at me and pulling me out of the story was

Guilliman sacking the ruling Ecclesiarch and appointing a replacement. I found it hard to believe he could waltz up and do this without a riot across multiple worlds. Ecclesiarchs are appointed by their peers according to the fluff and are not government appointed

 

Liked the portrayal of the Minotaurs. I wonder if their obviously false story regarding their geneseed losses was just an excuse to jump the queue and get their hands on the Primaris technology/personnel ahead of their rival Chapters?

I thought their losses were due to the Death Guard and their plague infecting the stored geneseed? Or am I confusing them with the Space Sharks?

No, it was the Minotaurs who apparently had their Fortress Monastery invaded by the Death Guard who infected their geneseed stores. Only issue is, the Minotaurs are fleet-based, so they don’t have a Fortress Monastery, hence the accusations of subterfuge.

Maybe they do or did but it was secret until the Death Guard attacked. I doubt they would show up and add stress to their High Lord masters if it wasn't serious. They were definitely attacked and need a lot of support even if the details are iffy

 

Not that’s definitely not what happened. It’s very clear that the story is tongue in cheek to give the Minotaurs a reason to be on Terra and have access to Primaris marines.

 

Fun fact, reading the novel gives a you much better idea of what the author meant, and means you understand the context in the novel.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

 

Finished and another great read from Wraight. I really wish GW would incorporate more of the background from the BL books into their background/codex books. I hear rumours of this beginning to happen but not enough IMHO.

I especially enjoyed how Wraight managed to continue to maintain an air of mystery (or outright misdirection) whilst still progressing the storyline. For instance

We still don't really know who was behind the attack on the SoS fortress. Everyone either blamed Slyst or the Ecclesiarchy in general but it was never really proven. For all we really know it was part of Trajan's plan

The only thing in the story the kept niggling at me and pulling me out of the story was

Guilliman sacking the ruling Ecclesiarch and appointing a replacement. I found it hard to believe he could waltz up and do this without a riot across multiple worlds. Ecclesiarchs are appointed by their peers according to the fluff and are not government appointed

Liked the portrayal of the Minotaurs. I wonder if their obviously false story regarding their geneseed losses was just an excuse to jump the queue and get their hands on the Primaris technology/personnel ahead of their rival Chapters?

I thought their losses were due to the Death Guard and their plague infecting the stored geneseed? Or am I confusing them with the Space Sharks?

No, it was the Minotaurs who apparently had their Fortress Monastery invaded by the Death Guard who infected their geneseed stores. Only issue is, the Minotaurs are fleet-based, so they don’t have a Fortress Monastery, hence the accusations of subterfuge.

Maybe they do or did but it was secret until the Death Guard attacked. I doubt they would show up and add stress to their High Lord masters if it wasn't serious. They were definitely attacked and need a lot of support even if the details are iffy

No, they absolutely don’t, and definitely weren’t attacked. Numerous characters remark about how blatant of a lie it is, and the only reason it isn’t being called out is because of politics. They explicitly show up because they were

called by the High Lord of the Administratum.

 

You’re being outright told what the novel states, and what the details are. The story in the Codex was obviously a mistake, as every single bit of information on them is that they’re fleet-based only. This book corrects the single bit of incorrect information into a bit of misinformation. Them being there doesn’t add stress to the High Lords, but rather, as you obviously haven’t read either this novel nor the prequel,

Guilliman returning caused a schism between the High Lords, with many wanting things to stay the same as before. This group, the Static Tendency, included the High Lord of the Administratum, who has authority over the Minotaurs. The Minotaurs were called to show the superiority of their philosophy.

[Bobss]

I feel like I could write my own companion piece detailing how much I love this series and Chris Wraight's works in general. There are so many things, large and small, that are simply brilliant in his novels and 'Watchers of the Throne' are no exception. The Emperor's Legion is a highly unique book in that it starts off with the typical foundations and themes of 'old 40k' such as the Cadian meatgrinder, the Imperium barely holding back its myriad foes, the Imperial peoples drowning in parchment and heretical pyres and so on; but at the end we're firmly set in 'new 40k' with the events on Terra and Luna having occurred and the Indomitus Crusade preparing itself. Wraight managed to sew together these two settings in a way that I didn't think was possible and deserves every credit. I was one of the biggest doubters of 'new 40k' as it's called, but several authors including Wraight managed to completely win me over

 

Onto The Regent's Shadow, what I absolutely loved the most about this book was how it drilled down into the type of anti-Roboute sentiment that we have barely heard about before now, but by all accounts should be red hot. Any logical discussion about a loyalist Primarch returning to the Imperium of the 41st Millennium would absolutely need to cover the legions of doubters and the resentment this would cause - from the everyday masses to the very High Lords themselves. We saw a shade of this in The Emperor's Legion which I adored (''we are celebrating a new dawn, but I fear the old night has returned to us'' <- absolutely gorgeous dialogue and lore-ness right there) and The Regent's Shadow runs with this, but with a basket full of surprises along the way

 

I ship Valerian and Aleya so hard because they are cutie patooties, and while Jek might not be the equal of Tieron (yet) she has plenty of room to grow. All of this said, I still believe 'Vaults of Terra' is the superior series due to the better character work, but I'm basically comparing perfectly cooked and seasoned steaks here 

[Phoebus]

While I thought it was very well thought out, I think the structure of the overall plot was a bit unsatisfying due to the lack of agency displayed by all three of the major characters/narrators. If they were not present at all, then the outcome of the novel would have been completely unaffected (this even gets said in character at one point). I felt this particularly strongly with Jek as she never really got a chance to show her competence in her new role.

To each their own, of course, but I think it’s worth qualifying that the lack of agency is quite deliberately. Neither Aleya, Jek, or Valerian are meant to be key players in this story so much as witnesses to the machinations and subterfuges of the powers that rule (or wish to rule) the Imperium. Accordingly, Wraight walks a tightrope wherein he provides us with characters who are unquestionably competent and powerful but nonetheless being overwhelmed by events they can’t possibly hope to control.

 

Anyways, I really enjoyed this novel. It’s an excellent sequel to The Emperor’s Legion, and another example of Wraight’s excellent Terra-based stories. The characters are very well-written, with believable motivations and reactions to the unfolding events. The story is compelling, thought I think it suffers a bit from the antagonists being absent throughout so much of its duration. That has less to do with Wraight’s ability as a writer, however, and is more a stylistic approach: it mirrors how he’s worked with the Vaults of Terra series, and is contrasted by his prominent antagonists in novels like The Path of Heaven. I would wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone interested in the genre.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

While I thought it was very well thought out, I think the structure of the overall plot was a bit unsatisfying due to the lack of agency displayed by all three of the major characters/narrators. If they were not present at all, then the outcome of the novel would have been completely unaffected (this even gets said in character at one point). I felt this particularly strongly with Jek as she never really got a chance to show her competence in her new role.

To each their own, of course, but I think it’s worth qualifying that the lack of agency is quite deliberately. Neither Aleya, Jek, or Valerian are meant to be key players in this story so much as witnesses to the machinations and subterfuges of the powers that rule (or wish to rule) the Imperium. Accordingly, Wraight walks a tightrope wherein he provides us with characters who are unquestionably competent and powerful but nonetheless being overwhelmed by events they can’t possibly hope to control.

 

Anyways, I really enjoyed this novel. It’s an excellent sequel to The Emperor’s Legion, and another example of Wraight’s excellent Terra-based stories. The characters are very well-written, with believable motivations and reactions to the unfolding events. The story is compelling, thought I think it suffers a bit from the antagonists being absent throughout so much of its duration. That has less to do with Wraight’s ability as a writer, however, and is more a stylistic approach: it mirrors how he’s worked with the Vaults of Terra series, and is contrasted by his prominent antagonists in novels like The Path of Heaven. I would wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone interested in the genre.

 

 

It also serves as almost a kind of companion piece to Spears of the Emperor that shows that even though Guilliman is back, things aren't in any way going nicely for the Imperium. It's still a quagmire of political infighting.

[b1soul]

@ Bobss

 

"The Emperor's Legion is a highly unique book in that it starts off with the typical foundations and themes of 'old 40k' such as the Cadian meatgrinder, the Imperium barely holding back its myriad foes, the Imperial peoples drowning in parchment and heretical pyres and so on; but at the end we're firmly set in 'new 40k' with the events on Terra and Luna having occurred and the Indomitus Crusade preparing itself. Wraight managed to sew together these two settings in a way that I didn't think was possible and deserves every credit."

 

Great way of putting it. We're lucky Wraight is the guy tackling the transition from old to new

 

I shudder at some of the other possibilties

[DukeLeto69]

Just finished The Regent's Shadow and thought it was excellent. Love the investigative, plans within plans and machinations that go on. Makes me very confident for the Bloodlines in the WH Crime series.

 

Really loving how Chris Wraight has carved a little niche for himself on Terra at the dawn of the Dark Imperium with the Vaults and Watchers books. Chris confirmed on Twitter there is at least one more book in each series and at least one character will crossover.