Forgefiends...Can they work?

[Agerjag]

So I have a pair of forgefiends and Id really like to play them in a fairly competitive environment with my thousand sons.
First thing, is this possible?
Second is it more reasonable to use them in a detachment from say alpha legion with a lord discordant rather then in an actual thousand sons formation?
I know they are not the best of models at this time and likely should just use some contemptor dreads instead but was wondering on thoughts of utilizing them reasonably at all.

If they are truly not usable maybe we just proxy them as dreads with butcher cannons or something 0.0

Edited March 2, 2020 by Agerjag

[Marshal Loss]

The simple truth of the matter is that Forgefiends are not a competitive unit. They are hamstrung by their 4+ BS, and any attempts you make to alleviate their poor BS would have been better spent elsewhere. Don't babysit them with a Lord Discordant. If you are taking only a single daemon engine, mathematically a Forgefiend will beat a Contemptor if you use Daemonforge every single turn, but that is a massive CP drain and in every other situation they fall short. A Contemptor or a Deredeo is always better.

 

I know this sounds rather negative, and they aren't a terrible unit, don't get me wrong; you can take one or two and do well. I use one occasionally because I love the model (& am fortunate enough to not play in a very competitive area). But if you care about being competitive there are always going to be better choices.

[Prot]

I hate to agree but this is a unit GW doesn’t seem to want to sell more of. It comes down to age of the unit I think. All alternatives seem to be better priced or just less handicapped. Not to mention anything with a large footprint and the Daemon Keyword is a pretty easy target for Grey Knights with 4 MW per Smite. In other words i think now more than ever if you want to put extra units on the table with Daemon Keyword it’s gotta be something really special.

 

For a brief moment in time a lot if people were jumping of the recently reduced chaos superheavy....the choo choo of death. And I think that brief run is already over.

 

Like Marshall said we have precious few buffs and a strong use of CP now with Psychic Awakening.... do you really want to pot those resources into this unit? On the other hand I’ve seen people babysit it with Disco Lords and Sorcerers.... I just don’t think that’s worth it. Though some seem to relish in the challenge.

[Sorceress]

I do love hitting it with Flickering flames.

[Agerjag]

The simple truth of the matter is that Forgefiends are not a competitive unit. They are hamstrung by their 4+ BS, and any attempts you make to alleviate their poor BS would have been better spent elsewhere. Don't babysit them with a Lord Discordant. If you are taking only a single daemon engine, mathematically a Forgefiend will beat a Contemptor if you use Daemonforge every single turn, but that is a massive CP drain and in every other situation they fall short. A Contemptor or a Deredeo is always better.

 

I know this sounds rather negative, and they aren't a terrible unit, don't get me wrong; you can take one or two and do well. I use one occasionally because I love the model (& am fortunate enough to not play in a very competitive area). But if you care about being competitive there are always going to be better choices.

 

That makes sense to me. I guess I was hoping even just using them as some t7 5++ screening wounds it would be ok for 128. The low BS especially while moving is a huge downside. Like I was saying I do play in a fairly competitive environment but I can usually get away with a few points as long as I can get some value out of them. I usually have quite a bit of CP but with a tzzangor bomb it may get a bit tight.

 

I hate to agree but this is a unit GW doesn’t seem to want to sell more of. It comes down to age of the unit I think. All alternatives seem to be better priced or just less handicapped. Not to mention anything with a large footprint and the Daemon Keyword is a pretty easy target for Grey Knights with 4 MW per Smite. In other words i think now more than ever if you want to put extra units on the table with Daemon Keyword it’s gotta be something really special.

 

For a brief moment in time a lot if people were jumping of the recently reduced chaos superheavy....the choo choo of death. And I think that brief run is already over.

 

Like Marshall said we have precious few buffs and a strong use of CP now with Psychic Awakening.... do you really want to pot those resources into this unit? On the other hand I’ve seen people babysit it with Disco Lords and Sorcerers.... I just don’t think that’s worth it. Though some seem to relish in the challenge.

It does seem like they dont care about it, it would be easy I think to update its weapons or something to make it playable, maybe ap -2 or something.

It may just end up being a challenge piece like you are saying 0.0

[Prot]

There’s nothing wrong with challenge pieces. The problem is it’s an old model and I just don’t think they’re that motivated to sell them. Otherwise I agree they could make it an effective, fun piece. I still love the model... unlike the Defiler I think it’s stood the test of time better. 

[Mr Smith]

I'll be throwing one into my Thousand Sons when I get them going, because I have one on hand.  I bought it when the model first game out, to go into a Word Bearers army that never got anywhere.  I'm aware it's not the best ranged-support unit out there, but it looks the part and should do okay in small games at least.

[Agerjag]

The deflier model is ancient yea? I got my first one in 2006 or so? By comparison the forge fiends are the new hotness :P
Maybe they will get an update in our next codex.... maybe give them some sort of inferno bolts options or remove the daemon keyword for beast or something.
Well Ill give them a go next game anyway, hope they eat up some attacks at least over my characters and well be ok.

[Mr Smith]

.... maybe give them some sort of inferno bolts options or remove the daemon keyword for beast or something.

 

Why would they lose the Daemon Keyword?  They're Daemon Engines!

[Dr_Ruminahui]

In addition to being nonsensical without a fluff change (as Mr. Smith stated, they are daemon engines) I'm not certain making them non-daemons would be an improvement, as while it might make them BS 3+ (not if they make them a beast, though - 3+ is pretty much "marine only" in CSM), it would also likely strip them of their invulnerable save and their wound regen.

[SirVulkan]

Duplicity a Defiler into your opponents face would be funny.  I haven't been big on Forgefiends even though I own one.  That BS 4+ is just awful.  They need to lower the cost on them because you have to invest in a lot of buffing just to make them work.

[Sorceress]

I really think all Walker style vehicles should ignore the move penalty to hit. at the very least demon engines all should. the defiler and hell drake are a mix of melee and ranged that would be far more worth it if they could move forward shooting then charge. the ForgeFiend could be nice if you could hide it turn one move out and fire at full effect. 

 

they could stay bs4+ if They could just ignore that penalty. 

[Mr Smith]

I really think all Walker style vehicles should ignore the move penalty to hit.

 

That would make more sense on tanks rather than walkers.  Anything on tracks or wheels is going to be more stable firing while mobile than anything lurching around on legs, relatively speaking.

[Are Verlo]

I am just throwing out crazy suggestions on how to make the forgefiends work:

Place the daemonforge rerolls as an ability on the datasheet, but give it d3 mortals or roll a d6, on a 1 -3 the model suffers d3 mortals.

Lower the cost per model

Increase the number of shots to heavy 6 (or even better) for the hades and 2d3 for the plasma (still the range issue)

Let it shoot twice if it did not move or moved half M or less.

Give it re-rolls to hit (or wound) until the end of the your next shooting phase if it killed 1 or more models in the shooting phase.

or someting like the exocrine: +1 bs and shoot twice if it remains stationary.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Duplicity a Defiler into your opponents face would be funny.  I haven't been big on Forgefiends even though I own one.  That BS 4+ is just awful.  They need to lower the cost on them because you have to invest in a lot of buffing just to make them work.

I've found that one Forgefiend can be OK, especially if you're expecting Primaris. Flickering Flames helps. A Duplicity PlasmaFiend or Defiler could be hilarious. Also tempted to do a Vindicator or Land Raider Achilles. :)