Another suggestion for MoA post-FAQ

[superwill]

Hey guys,

I've been wracking my brain thinking about what to do with MoA.

 

I know some are enjoying Aggressors and that's great. For me, I just haven't found them particularly great. Against things like marines/necrons/chaos etc. the fact that they're bouncing either 2/3 or 5/6 of the shots on their armour save just means that even with a classic +1 to hit from a chaplain your ~93 shots (assuming you take a full 6 man squad) only does 6 wounds to a unit standing on cover. And not being able to move closer on your turn also limits your potential targets dramatically. Of course against something like Orks they'll do some good work (something like 25 orks). But even in that pretty perfect situation of going first against an ideal target, they're almost guaranteed to die in return (chaplain quite often will too) and you've only killed about 150 points of boyz in exchange for 222 point aggressors and a 90ish point chaplain, and it cost you a WLT to do it. And of course on the 50/50 that you go second, you're either deepstriking them which they're pretty bad at since they halve their firepower, or you're trying to find a spot on the board for a unit which is slow and short ranged.

 

I've seen people mention VV, which I think is a more promising idea. Potentially even with a Slam instead of a Chappie. That way if they go first they can drop, infiltrate pretty far if need be, and then on their turn they can move, advance and still charge with +1" for 1CP. And if you're on the back turn they're probably a better fit arriving from DS, or depending on your opponent they can just leapfrog up the field out of LoS and use their mobility to survive/be relevant.

 

But a couple of my own ideas.

 

1) The cheaper/throwaway one. A 150 point grav-cannon squad does a pretty strong amount of damage. In fact, 5 regular devs have better shooting with their grav-cannons than gravs of 5 centurion devastators (because even though they only have 4 cannons, one of them has BS2 and fires twice). They also cost 200 points less (though they lack hurricane bolters). With the strat these guys put out hurt on the right targets (and most armies have at least something worth targetting) and really don't need a lot of support. If you end up going second you can throw them in reserve and they'll still drop in for only a -1 modifier (better than half shots) and they haven't cost you too many points for the gamble.

 

2) The maybe more left-field idea (not a unit I've seen talk about in a while) is hellblasters. Those guys pack serious punch, but the problem is getting them in the right spot. With RG we are guaranteed to get a shot off with them. Especially with a chaplain giving +1 to hit meaning that they can't kill themselves, they're a pretty good option, and especially if you take a max squad they're a good chance to blow up something on your T1. If you're lucky enough to be versing big characters (e.g. Knights) you can always hold them for turn 2, where there's no penalty for DSing them. They'll kill 14 primaris, or blow up a repulsor, etc. Bit more of a points investment, but a pretty hard hitting unit that will be great to alpha strike with but RG will equally enjoy having them arrive T2 (especially if there's any kinds of auras joining them).

 

I tried the hellblasters yesterday. They were a bit unlucky (shooting carnifexes with -1 to hit, my chaplain failed his litany for +1 to hit even with a CP reroll) and rolled pretty poorly but still managed to kill 2 carnifexes. Not 100% sure it's the final answer but keen to give it another try some time.

 

Just thought I'd share some musings and open it up to see whether others have ideas. I know this is territory which has been covered a bit, but seeing as it's probably one of our two biggest plays (and the more complex/difficult one IMO, with a significant recent change) I thought it might deserve its own discussion.

Edited March 5, 2020 by superwill

[Dracos]

I’m trying different things with MoA myself right now. Going first it’s still awesome trait. The thing is if you don’t go first you need to be dang tough if you use it. Centurions could shrug off a first turn of shooting and remain viable. I’m not sure right now the same can be said if anything else. I usually build a double battalion so it’s not often I expect to go first. :(

 

I did use it last week going second against Guard. I was able to get into LOS blocking terrain that gave them chance to charge T1 without being shot to death. Likely the exception though, not the rule.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Dracos

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Looks like we're carrying the discussion over to a new thread rather than the FAQ thread, alright then 

 

I think your Aggressor math is a bit off. Assuming you have a unit of 6 and they are going to double tap on turn one (At least thats how I read your post):

 

(6 x 6 + 6D6) x 2 = 156 Shots

 

Assuming BS 2+ due to litany = 130 Hits (assuming no re-roll)

 

Against T4 models this means 65 wounds 

 

This kills:

 

~54 Ork Boys (378 Points)

~22 MEQ Models (No Cover)

~11 TEQ Models (Or MEQ in Cover)

~32 Necron Warriors (352 Points)

 

A few things of note:

 

1) Like you mentioned they are more suited to killing hordes, but they do kill anything in the game via weight of dice

 

2) I think anymore its been shown that the Master of Sanctity is a must-have if you intend to run this build, and then you can get both hit and wound, which makes them even deadlier

 

3) Almost any option we choose is going to die on the opponents following turn. I think that might be the only positive to say a large blob of Cataphractii terminators I can think of. Most of the alternatives (Hellblasters for example) are nearly (or more) expensive than Aggressors. 

 

4) It's not viable against most opponents, but don't sleep on the Aggressor power fists. Against certain lists you get to double down and play with them in two phases. Shoot up a screen of GEQ models and then punch a hole in an armored target.

 

Love the thread, can't wait to see the discussion unfold!

[superwill]

Hmmm yeah, I think I ran the numbers wrong. Think you might have too?

[6 + D6 (3.5)] x 6 x 2 = 114. Even if you rolled all 6s on your D6 shots I think it's only 144 shots right? Not sure how you get to 156 unless I'm missing something?

 

I had the same "weight of dice" theory, and maybe I just need a few more games to try them (as I said, I've only run them three times and all in the last 10ish days). Against Necrons they stunk. He hid his more delicate units so my best/only target was a squad of destroyers, and I only killed one destroyer and wounded another (which, because they were in cover, is what I mathematically should expect). And unfortunately because he had guys hiding in ruins closer than the destroyers, the +1 wound litany did nothing.

 

I've got another idea I think I'll try in my next game:

 

Chaplain Dread (I know...) with +1 to hit song, because I have to choose before knowing who's going first.

Cpt Slam

 

If I go second, Chappie just redeploys in my gunline and basically has a BS2 twin las, and Cpt Slam deploys as far forward as he safely can (can also infiltrate afterwards).

If I go first, both gents head to the front line and Chappie probably just uses his Litany of Hate instead for rerolls to hit.

Basically, just trying to pick units that can still have a good impact if going second but can hit hard if going first. The fact they tick two HQ slots too is a definite bonus.

[Jacques Corbin]

Well, going second, MoA is a nice way to plug some holes in your line, or exploit your opponent's aggressive positioning because he thinks he found a hole 8n your defences.

 

Also, backing up a midfield unit is good option too. I mean, do you shoot the Scouts/Incursors/Infiltrators on the objective first, or the Aggressors and the Chaplain first? You certainly do not charge them, Aggressors will eat most units on overwatch, and they will charge in to help the other squad in your assault phase.

 

I have been saying Aggressors from the start, as being Primaris, they are far more future proof than Centurions.

 

That is the one thing I like about faqs that nerf. That faction's true fans do not have to put up with lame meta chasers anymore.

[Dracos]

+ HQ +

Captain in Phobos Armour

Primaris Chaplain: MoS

 

+ Troops +

5 Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle

(Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword)

 

5 Intercessor Squad: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle

(Intercessor Sergeant: Thunder hammer)

5 Intercessor Squad: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle

(Intercessor Sergeant: Thunder hammer)

 

+ Elites +

5 Aggressor Squad: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 

+ Fast Attack +

5 Inceptor Squad: Assault bolter x2

 

+ Heavy Support +

3 Eliminator Squad

3 Eliminator Squad

This is my test list this week at Escalation League

 

Concept:

MoS, Aggressors, both Thunder squads deep strike from the Shadows

Inceptors (MoA, Infiltrate), Stalkers, Eliminators, Phobos Cpt. start on the board.

 

I start with 0 CP I hope to own board control and have mass fire where I choose T2 and T3. Pho is Captain and Inceptors look for a tasty spot to hide and keep an open deep strike area. This list and idea will be tweaked as the list grows to 2000.

[Dracos]

Phobos Captain w/ MoA and 5 Inceptors = Tzaangor Blender. Took out the Shaman and 6 Tzaangor Enlightened T1. Which made the regular Tzaangor sitting ducks. Admittedly, they had a little help from the Stalker Intercessors and a lucky roll to go first after deployment. 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Dracos

[Dumah]

Other than Aggressors, do we have any good CC threats for MoA that are primaris? Would Reivers ever be worth it?

[MajorNese]

Other than Aggressors, do we have any good CC threats for MoA that are primaris? Would Reivers ever be worth it?

To be honest, a full squad of the CC version could.

 

10 shots, 40 attacks in CC, that should overwhelm some targets by sheer dice tonnage. Those guys can continue to lock stuff in CC that doesn't want to, and it takes 20W to get through before those units are freed again - not happening without devoting all firepower on them, or if they surround a model so it can't get away.

 

With 16ppm they are the cheapest primaris wounds you can get - 10 man throwaway unit for 160p, that's absolutely acceptable. Or, if using the Tactical Flexibility strat, they split off in two squads (post-MoA) and lock down a far larger area. And throw flashbangs to take away firepower/overwatch on two units.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

You're correct I absolutely did the math wrong. For some reason I calculated the D6 value as 7 rather than the 2D6 value as 7. Im going to go through and re-do some numbers to get some more average kill counts - and maybe add in some KEQ and buff equivalents. Could be fun for reference/mental exercise.

 

New Math:

 

(6 x 6 + 6D6) x 2 = 114 Shots

 

Assuming BS 2+ due to litany = 95 Hits (assuming no re-roll)

 

Against T4 models this means ~48 wounds 

 

This kills:

 

~40 Ork Boys (280 Points)

~16 MEQ Models (No Cover)

~ 8  TEQ Models (Or MEQ in Cover)

~24 Necron Warriors (264 Points)

 

Assuming Reclusiarch and +1 Wound

 

~5 KEQ Wounds

 

~More to come~

Edited March 11, 2020 by Shadow Captain Vyper

[GenerationTerrorist]

An idea I have would be a blob of 10 Terminators. Remember them?

(I REALLY want to make them work in 8th Edition!)

 

Either with 10 TH/SS, or with 9 SB/PF and SB/PS on the Sgt.

 

IF they get the charge, the former is putting out 31 S8 attacks. If not going first, they have a 2+/3++ Save.

 

The latter is putting out an ungodly number of shots from Stormbolters and have a better Save (in case you have to face going second) than the equivalent of Aggressors.

[jpwyrm]

They cost almost double the points though...

[Dracos]

I accidentally used my MoA to turn my Inceptors into "bait" tonight. They were suppose to Ambush his Seer Council but he had his own movement shenanigans and the Shining Spears redeployed in his movement phase(?). No chance for the Inceptors to even shoot Overwatch because of his Autarch (?) on a jetbike. Shooting and melee took the Inceptors out ... but the MoS Chaplain wiped out 6 Shining Spears in two turns of melee and survived long enough to the the Stalkers finish off the Autarch on the jetbike. Go Chappie. 

 

Now all that commotion drew a crowd from the other Eldar and my MoA "bait" suddenly was replaced by two units of Thunder Hammer / Bolt Rifle Intercessors and Aggressors stepping from the Shadows. The counterstrike was devastating. The Stalkers were real heroes also cleaning up the tiny Eldar units of Rangers and Dire Avengers at extreme range (Long Range Marksmen). 

 

My lesson is if I'm going to be deployment dumb and use my own units as accidental bait with MoA against a fast army, maybe use a cheaper unit next time. More importantly . . . Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Dracos

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

 

Words to live by as a RG player

[sultansean]

I have been using Vanguard Vets and aggressors and one thing I have found is that if you have first turn the VV's can normally get a charge by advancing pre-game and then advancing again, making MoA unnecessary on them.

Reivers were brought up as a possible combat unit, but what about flame storm aggressors? With Long Range marksman and hungry for battle, they would want either a re-roll or a +1 to hit in combat, but they are 4 powerfist attacks each.

However for the negligible points difference from boltstorm they are are probably better. So if you are MoA'ing them If they have a combat target I would tend to move even closer in my turn shoot some screen and then try and charge something good, or wrap something.    

[dode74]

THSS Assault Terminators made a surprisingly effective MoA unit in a 1250pt game the other day.  Not only did they dish out the damage, taking down 3 War Walkers and a couple of characters, they also acted as an excellent distractionfex with 2W and 3++.  Meanwhile the Lascannon Centurions laid down the damage, and Aggressors deepstriked into the backfield to take down the gunline.  Worked better than I had hoped.

[sultansean]

So looking at it, I see no reason you can't use Master of Ambush and then the infiltrate stratagem to move into the enemy deployment zone. Is that correct? Both things happen "at the beginning of the first battle round before the first turn begins."

Also side question on Chaplain buffs, when is range for the +1 to wound litany measured? At the start of the battle round or when the unit is chosen to shoot with?

 

Thanks!

[Dracos]

At the top of the Turn for the Chaplain. 

 

Yes using both Strats is a costly but deadly combo that can be rewarding if you can afford the CP and likely losing the unit when your opponent counter strikes.

[MajorNese]

So looking at it, I see no reason you can't use Master of Ambush and then the infiltrate stratagem to move into the enemy deployment zone. Is that correct?

Infiltrators does require staying >9" away from enemy models, but unlike Concealed Positions, doesn't rule out the deployment zone. So if it's empty, then it's probably possible.

[sultansean]

At the top of the Turn for the Chaplain.

For the +1 to wound in shooting, do you pick the unit and measure which enemy is closest at the start of the round or when he unit is selected to fire. It seems like it has to be when the unit is selected to fire. But it’s sort of weird that you chant the litany and then it’s just floating in the breeze.

[Dracos]

No, like all litanies, you select the unit when you recite it. It's not so much sitting around as it is waiting for you to maneuver and pick the closest unit to shoot at. If they have the top of the Turn a savvy opponent might decide to move out of LoS or range. This is one reason I am finding Inceptors to be a good unit to receive the Catechism of Fire. They don't have to stay with the Chaplain. They also have a high rate of fire and enough mobility to pursue if needed. 

 

It's not a click and point ability. There is some depth to using litanies and defending against them. I think they're more fun the Librarians who I love but powers having less than 50% chance to activate is just a tease imo.

[jpwyrm]

My luck with Litanies has been abysmal as of yet, but I'm still including a chaplain in all my lists - with Wise Orator and and MoS, they are the best buffers in our arsenal. I really like the idea of giving Catechism of Fire on Inceptors, maybe Recitation of Focus too, then move and advance to position them exactly where they are most needed. I wonder if this could also be combined with Infiltration...

[duz_]

If we're going to discuss Chaplain litanies it probably deserves it own thread

[Dracos]

Good idea. Unless someone beats me too it, I'll start one this evening. I want to review my battle reports first.