Portrayal and realism of close combat in BL fiction

[b1soul]

I know realism isn't BL's forte, but I would like to read about a CC-oriented Astartes chapter that focuses on group discipline, like how dominant ancient armies fought with unit cohesion and army-wide coordination, not as a collection of individual champions or berserkers.

 

I'm a bit surprised that no chapter closes ranks and presents boarding shields when closing into the CQC zone

Edited March 5, 2020 by Brother Tyler
Unnecessary spoiler tags removed

[Kelborn]

B1soul: Iron Snakes?

Edited March 3, 2020 by Kelborn

[Lord_Caerolion]

HH-era Imperial Fists or Ultramarines?

[mc warhammer]

great crusade war hounds?

 

ps. why are the above suggestions in spoiler tags?

[Kelborn]

Out of habit

I see spoiler Tags, I react in spoiler tags to avoid accidental slip of spoilers. ;)

[b1soul]

Chapters who train to fight like that (as a cohesive unit) should be slaughtering these berserk chapters, but you don't see that in 40K. Just my pet peeve

[Dumah]

I know realism isn't BL's forte, but I would like to read about a CC-oriented Astartes chapter that focuses on group discipline, like how dominant ancient armies fought with unit cohesion and army-wide coordination, not as a collection of individual champions or berserkers.

 

I'm a bit surprised that no chapter closes ranks and presents boarding shields when closing into the CQC zone

See Brothers of the Snake. Near the end of the book, it features a very cool sequence like this.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Brother Tyler
Unnecessary spoiler tags removed from quoted post

[Moonreaper666]

Chapters who train to fight like that (as a cohesive unit) should be slaughtering these berserk chapters, but you don't see that in 40K. Just my pet peeve

Probably because the berserk-type groups use the chaos to their advantage, breaking down the formation of the enemy leading to many smaller fights instead. We are talking about super-soldiers that play by their own rules

 

It is like Swordmen breaking down a formation of Spearmen head-on. If the formation breaks the Swordmen slaughter the Spearmen

 

There are disadvantages in over-relying on discipline and formation. SWAT and Navy Seals are not meant for prolong combat or any combat against a foe with equal power or distinct advantage

 

Orks, Chaos, Necrons and Eldar have many ways to break these formations without using psyker powers

[rendingon1+]

Thing with BL,GW,FW portrayal of close combat (either solo or multiple combatants) is that x writer has no knowledge of how cc actually works and have real poor knowledge of (military) history. As long as they don't get into detail all is fine. Also I wish they'd refrain from using word "savage" when describing someone's skill/style whatever. It literally means :cussing nothing. I know it's fiction and all, still they shouldn't try to be so smart on actual tactics etc. Edited March 3, 2020 by rendingon1+

[Dumah]

Thing with BL,GW,FW portrayal of close combat (either solo or multiple combatants) is that x writer has no knowledge of how cc actually works and have real poor knowledge of (military) history. As long as they don't get into detail all is fine. Also I wish they'd refrain from using word "savage" when describing someone's skill/style whatever. It literally means :cussing nothing. I know it's fiction and all, still they shouldn't try to be so smart on actual tactics etc.

It doesn't mean nothing though. It means fierce, violent, and uncontrolled.

[rendingon1+]

Ie. unskilled, undisciplined. Shouldn't ever be used as a "positive trait".

[b1soul]

Yes, the savage trope is getting a bit out of hand in 40K. The Roman war-machine is usually going to slaughter a mob of SAVAGE! Celtic tribesmen or other warriors relying on individual ferocity to carry the day.

 

Fully agree with rendingon1+ on the authours' lack of knowledge in how group combat actually plays out

[StrangerOrders]

Yes, the savage trope is getting a bit out of hand in 40K. The Roman war-machine is usually going to slaughter a mob of SAVAGE! Celtic tribesmen or other warriors relying on individual ferocity to carry the day.

 

Fully agree with rendingon1+ on the authours' lack of knowledge in how group combat actually plays out

The extra funny thing is that alot of the irl 'savage' hordes that were successful were both extremely disciplined and were in practice not that savage.

 

Wraight seems to be the first guy to go like 'oh ya... the Mongols were literally anything but savage barbarians'. Vikings were extremely well-coordinated pirate/merchants who were infamously politically savvy. Heck, the Greeks thought the Romans were little better than savages and got beaten to death with their own limbs. The 'barbarians destroyed Rome' meme might be a meme but even then, most of those Barbarian confederations could draw on generations of legionary service and training.

 

Generally speaking, the least professional force in history always got its head caved in. Tbf, at least the Angron book confirms that the World Eater's are basically useless and only remained viable due to being able to cheat and keep their recruitment rate through the roof (had they shared that tech, every other Legion would have left them in the dust). It even lampshades that Angron's 'great victory' was only achieved by virtue of the formerly disciplined Twelfth and that they'd have won if it wasn;t for his stupid bitterness. 

 

With the wolves at least the books go out of their way to show that they are at least fantastically disciplined. They are just also superstitious and bitter to the point of lunacy (no thanks to Rangda and Horus). There is never really a point where you see anything but professionalism in their actual hierarchy and obedience of orders.

 

Not even going to mention SoH because they are a nonsensical mass of memes and topknots which seem to believe 'Savage' is a magical word of power without any actual meaning. My personal theory is that their topknots got large enough at one point that the weight has gradually pushed against their skulls and damaged their brains.

 

I'd honestly say that for 'Savagery', you'd actually go to the Chaos EC. A bunch of idiots that can;t grasp orders or a command structure outside of a few instances which have devolved to the point of sucking in large-scale strategy and coordination. To say nothing of buggering off mid-battle to pillage.

 

Savage is honestly just a fancy word for unprofessional and poorly trained when you think about it.

[b1soul]

To clarify, I'm not saying Chris is guilty of the SAVAGE!!!BRUTAL!!! trope in this book. Doesn't sound like it based on your explanations.

 

It's more a thing with FW writers, I think. I remember it distinctly in the FW Badad War books whenever the Minotaurs, Caracharadons, or Executioners are mentioned. Other chapters quaking in their power armoured boots because the SAVAGERY about to be unleashed upon them.

 

On the "Barbarians", IIRC...

 

Celtic warriors (at least initially) fought as individual champions and were noted by Romans to be big and intimidating on an individual level. Still got mopped up badly by the Romans.

 

Germanic warriors under Arminius (a semi-Romanised Germanic prince who had served in the Roman military and was intimately familiar with Roman tactics) badly defeated the Romans by ambushing them in a dense forest.

[rendingon1+]

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[rendingon1+]

Lol

 

Google: how to travel back in time and delete thread

I was waiting for Kelborn to move topic relevant posts from different thread.

Didn't expect HIM.

I'm still amazed why people do not use "ignore" function, and even more amazed why mods allow him to post. Instead of proving one's intellectual superiority in replying to his gibberish, why not simply move on or report his posts as thread disrupting or whatever ?

Edited March 5, 2020 by rendingon1+

[Mazer Rackham]

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The First Post has been noted as being a placeholder and is therefore awaiting content.  This is permitted by the rules of the board, and the topic is designed to provoke debate and conversation.  It is not however designed to be a blank canvas for what is essentially graffiti.

 

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[Kelborn]

Posts were moved.

Enjoy the discussion but as already mentioned above, keep it civil!

[bluntblade]

great crusade war hounds?

 

ps. why are the above suggestions in spoiler tags?

Ultramarines and Fists too.

 

Wait,don't the Iron Warriors do it in StD?

[bluntblade]

Where savagery is concerned with the Wolves and Scars - actually, the Legions in general - the best authors take pains to depict it as being motivated.

 

To borrow from The Hollow Mountain, for anyone but a kinsmen to face Space Marine is to confront sensory overload. The Scars and Wolves (both Luna and of Fenris) set an enemy reeling and never, ever let them recover).

 

At the same time, this is Wraight andnother acknowledging that Astartes have advantages which don't exist for mortals. Especially those crazy reaction times and that hyper-awareness of their brothers.

Edited March 5, 2020 by bluntblade

[Marshal Rohr]

Savage has two distinct meanings. One is cultural and one is physical. Savage in the context of a fight is synonymous with brutal or brutalize. Edited March 5, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[bluntblade]

I was thinking of the latter definition.

[Marshal Rohr]

I was thinking of the latter definition.

I was just throwing it out there for clarity.

[bluntblade]

Ah, pardon my misunderstanding

[rendingon1+]

Savage has two distinct meanings. One is cultural and one is physical. Savage in the context of a fight is synonymous with brutal or brutalize.

There's no such thing as "brutal" or "brutalize" in a fight assuming it's a life and death one. Because... it's life and death combat. I fail to see how one sword thrust would be more "brutal" than another since your aim is to (and throughout the ages always was, is and will) kill your opponent as fast as you could, with minimal effort, without being injured yourself and than move to another. You have an opening - you stick your blade into another man's chest, groin, thight, eye etc. Unless we talk of duels where one opponent clearly outmaches the other or some weird ritual (judical duel, or what aztecs/mayan did ) combat.

 

Fully agree on cultural thing though.

Edited March 5, 2020 by rendingon1+