Replacing Rapier QL's - with what?

[spacewatch]

What would you recommend as an replacement for pair of Rapier Quad Launchers? Have tried to use them mainly to eliminate enemy non-LoS units like Dark Reapers, Hive Guard, Basilisk, etc. before they hammer down my Rapiers and then my marines sitting and scoring on objectives. I have found Rapier's 501 profile is good against enemy screens etc. but it's just too weak when enemy non-LoS artillery unit is in cover (as always is) or is T5+ vehicle or similar. Really need help on this one.

 

My list is typical monocodex Deathwatch army so two battalions, WM, jump captains, three SB/SS+FG units, Combi-Plasma unit and SPBG unit(s) with missile launcher and couple of (venerable/contemptor)dreads with twin/quad las, Vindicare. Any ideas for replacement unit(s), alternative tactics or even soup, are more than welcome!

[Paulinus]

Have you tried a relic Scorpius whirlwind? 3D3 str 6 -2ap 2D. Put an LT near it to reroll wounds. I play ultramarines and normally use the seal of oath to re roll hits and wounds on one target. Like those units you want to hit. Plus you get to shoot twice if you don’t move.

 

I play an artillery blob of one scorpius, one TF (Techmarine normally takes the seal) and one rapier quad gun. Cassius sits nearby for the +1 to hit and +1 to wound litanies. It gives me the chance to wound T9 stuff on 4+ with any one of those. Normally the scorpius.

 

if playing deathwatch and you If you want soup, you could take a Master Chaplain, the relic Scorpius and maybe 3 Eliminator squads. The eliminators can still shoot indirect and get get +1 to hit and wound as part of their rules. The Eliminators won’t cause much damage indirectly but they can contribute. They more to keep your detachment cheaper and still do something. Pick a chapter that might fit well into your plan.

Edited March 15, 2020 by Paulinus

[Mobius0288]

I've usually seen folks take rapiers just so they can have a cheap tax for leviathan dreadnaughts. I would also say the scorpius whirlwind if you want an artillery role in your army.

 

Are thunderfire cannons any better from an iron hands spearhead (durability and overwatch perspective)?

 

Eliminators are also in a sweet spot if taken as allies.

 

Or you could look to taking more aggressive options since the closer we get, generally, the more firepower we output (storm bolters, plasma, meltas, etc.) You just gotta be mindful of your opponents army's abilities.

[quasistellar]

Plasma inceptors? Deep strike a primaris kill team with plasma? It's a shame the corvus blackstar is so bad :(

[spacewatch]

Thanks everyone for good ideas and hints. RelWhirlScorpius (RWS) multi-launcher+Rocket Barrage looks very interesting and definitely is better than two Rapier QL's. But RWS+relic tax (Rapier) is a bit too much points just to embed it into my current list. But it was evident that I needed to re-think my 2nd Battalion anyway so... 

 

Regarding possible soup I'm thinking Raven Guard. I quess it's not the best faction for RWS but I could save some points by replacing Vindicare with RG Eliminators and use RG Scouts to screen and protect RWS. I also like how RG is special&covert ops army as DW is.

 

Plasma Inceptors and more agressive play in general ...well, it looks like my local opponents have learned how to protect from very aggressive turn 1 Drop Pod SB/SS deepstrike + nasty plasma/melta unit beaconed up as a suicide quad to destroy non-LoS artillery unit or other mission specific primary target. I have even tried tactic where Rapiers and Corvus eliminate screens and two plasma/melta units focus on primary targets. Problem is that oftentimes these spearhead units tend to die before they get their job done. Maybe it's my list or playstyle or maybe it's just time to hire something big and devastating like Leviathan or Helverins or Tank Commander battalion into my army, haha.

[Paulinus]

From a fluffy perspective, forward scouts lazing targets for artillery strikes is pretty cool. Edited March 18, 2020 by Paulinus

[Mobius0288]

 

I have even tried tactic where Rapiers and Corvus eliminate screens and two plasma/melta units focus on primary targets. Problem is that oftentimes these spearhead units tend to die before they get their job done. Maybe it's my list or playstyle or maybe it's just time to hire something big and devastating like Leviathan or Helverins or Tank Commander battalion into my army, haha.

 

 

Ya I've been playing with a similar tactic. Instead of the Corvus, I use a couple 3 man biker units. It's not a huge deal if I lose them right off the bat since I also try to use them as my own screen.

 

I feel like if you want to use that tactic to its fullest, you're gonna have to commit to a force built around it and just keep an eye on the timing of how you execute the maneuver. What I mean is you may have to run a Corvus with a couple biker units, a drop pod (or 2) and maybe some razorbacks so that everything is able to spearhead. That's also a more ideal way to use and cover a blackstar in our list. In the case, even a relic sicarian would be beneficial. It's definitely an entire list you have to build around it, but it can be done.

 

I can see it being difficult against horde-ish armies as their numbers can overwhelm in close combat but if you can make the charge first, it can sometimes be mitigated or averted because you were able to destroy them first (ie Frag cannons to a degree).

[spacewatch]

 

...

I feel like if you want to use that tactic to its fullest, you're gonna have to commit to a force built around it and just keep an eye on the timing of how you execute the maneuver. What I mean is you may have to run a Corvus with a couple biker units, a drop pod (or 2) and maybe some razorbacks so that everything is able to spearhead. That's also a more ideal way to use and cover a blackstar in our list. In the case, even a relic sicarian would be beneficial. It's definitely an entire list you have to build around it, but it can be done.

...

 

Interesting. I need to try this, full scale attack, sometime but I'm afraid it will be either glorious victory or sudden death and most likely the latter, haha My argument for this is that we just don't have the tools to make the impact enough, I mean to kill several enemy's vital big and nasty units in just one or two turns. Sure screens and enemy infantry in general can be wiped but Sv2+ in cover, 3++ or units having 20+ wounds I don't think so. Haven't calculated but I estimate we are able to output say 100-120 SIA shots, 20-30 plasma shots, couple of melta or frag shots and lascannon shots as well in turn we execute this strike. Next turn numbers are halved because of enemy activity and then what? We either need durability to stay alive from enemy counter measures or some way to make our impact better against tougher units. I agree that maxed out units, target priority, concentrated fire and target saturation in general are good elements and help to plan and execute this but without impact that seriously kicks enemy army in just two turns ...nope, we don't have it. Maybe WM and three maxed out Combi-Plasma units supported by Corvus, Bikers, TAC Razorbacks and Relic Sicarian Whirlwinds would do the trick ...never played this aggressive so need to think about this. Thanks for feedback.

 

EDIT:

 

Ya I've been playing with a similar tactic. Instead of the Corvus, I use a couple 3 man biker units. It's not a huge deal if I lose them right off the bat since I also try to use them as my own screen.

...

 

This made me wonder if Bikers could be used to protect turn 1/2 strike troops too. I mean units arrive using DP's or Teleportarium and then WM or Captain beacons Biker unit in front of them. Just position them so that troops, especially flamer weapons (frags, flamers, shotguns) are in range, but enemy cannot consolidate if they manage to wipe bikers. Sure Bikers will be wiped but not too easily since they are T5 and Sarge can take SS. Bikers also can contribute by shooting when arrive and if they are not wiped they can fight back or move out of the way and charge and tie something else and then your frags, flamers, shotguns can start their concert. Somebody must have tested this tactic allready so what do you think, would something like this help agressive strike troops to stay alive longer (assuming they have the usual 2xTermies+4xSS as a protection too)?

Edited March 21, 2020 by spacewatch