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Saga of the Beast: Rules


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#51
Triszin

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When did Chris Hemsworth get inducted into the Space Wolves?

Spoiler


That's in my brain now! teehee.gif

is that ulrik with hair?


banana

#52
Medjugorje

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while imnot a fan of our super doctrine, I will just treat it as a bonus.

 

you cant really rely on that, if you hit 6's  cool, if not my list needs to be good enough without it

 

thats also why im not a fan of incursors, being reliant on a 6 isn't being reliable


im trying to make out any other point changes but its pretty hard to read the youtube vids

way better then the Black Templar one. WAY BETTER.

 

btw... do you have access to Grav-cannons? 


Edited by Medjugorje, 21 March 2020 - 05:24 PM.

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#53
Triszin

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while imnot a fan of our super doctrine, I will just treat it as a bonus.

 

you cant really rely on that, if you hit 6's  cool, if not my list needs to be good enough without it

 

thats also why im not a fan of incursors, being reliant on a 6 isn't being reliable


im trying to make out any other point changes but its pretty hard to read the youtube vids

way better then the Black Templar one. WAY BETTER.

 

btw... do you have access to Grav-cannons? 

 

i didn't see them in the video, so nope


banana

#54
brother-fabius

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while imnot a fan of our super doctrine, I will just treat it as a bonus.

 

you cant really rely on that, if you hit 6's  cool, if not my list needs to be good enough without it

 

thats also why im not a fan of incursors, being reliant on a 6 isn't being reliable


im trying to make out any other point changes but its pretty hard to read the youtube vids

It is in french, but you can see the points easily.

 

https://www.youtube....youtu.be&t=1201


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#55
TiguriusX

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I have mixed feelings.

On one hand I have been enjoying soup with my wolves while waiting for our update and grown attached to these allies...the weak super doctrine has me just going forward as is

On the other hand...I know pure wolves are a big deal and I like chasing best SW at local tournaments as well. Pure wolves are bleh

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#56
Medjugorje

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the big problem I see is that you dont have better movement abilities.

 

Its like the opposite of my Templars. We have so much possibilites to charge very fast but then we dont have really good punchy stratagems (except one VERY VERY expensive). Those we have are very hard to combine. 

Your army is so strong if they charge but not that many abilities to get into it.


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#57
One Two Wolf

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Almost everything can take a SS, so screening can be done by elite squads instead of chaff, and a relic reducing casts against by 2 is incredible (esp if njal is alongside the bearer of said) so mortal wound protection is there too. Thus delivery system complaints are addressed I think effectively but not via charge mechanics or transports (thank god IMHO) so get out the WG with JP or TWC, SS all round and run like hell.

RB losing his dogs is very poor, it makes us more generic and grey and meh. Other than that it's a good update even if delayed for an absurd time and for no go reason. FYI boxset and book cost me $430nzd which is robbery.

Edited by One Two Wolf, 21 March 2020 - 08:04 PM.


#58
Dark Shepherd

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Points values all the same

#59
Triszin

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Almost everything can take a SS, so screening can be done by elite squads instead of chaff, and a relic reducing casts against by 2 is incredible (esp if njal is alongside the bearer of said) so mortal wound protection is there too. Thus delivery system complaints are addressed I think effectively but not via charge mechanics or transports (thank god IMHO) so get out the WG with JP or TWC, SS all round and run like hell.

RB losing his dogs is very poor, it makes us more generic and grey and meh. Other than that it's a good update even if delayed for an absurd time and for no go reason. FYI boxset and book cost me $430nzd which is robbery.

o.0


banana

#60
TiguriusX

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Found a combo for our blood claws

Stalker pack

Blood scent after using morkai bolts

Gives +1 wound roll and reroll 1s

That sounds insignificant at first but remember blood claws have 4 attacks base on the charge hitting on 2s

You can buff that with wulfen stone and saga of wolfkin as needed

15 man pack has 60 attacks. You will be piling attacks on anything T7 or less (25ish wounds with no rerolls against T5-T7)

Wolf priest litany can add extra damage to that as well.

Means mass blood claws can shred hordes AND elite troops up to light armor effectively

Can deliver them using outflank with wulfen to reroll charge and canticle of hate to make it a 7" rerollable charge.

There is even 1 more combo to get an extra d6 on the charge for stalker pack if needed

Edited by TiguriusX, 21 March 2020 - 09:42 PM.

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#61
TheWolfLord

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Points values all the same

Other than Land speeders that are again incorrectly 70 points. I still fail to understand why our Scout Bikes are 31 points when others are 21 too. 



#62
TheWolfLord

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the big problem I see is that you dont have better movement abilities.

 

Its like the opposite of my Templars. We have so much possibilites to charge very fast but then we dont have really good punchy stratagems (except one VERY VERY expensive). Those we have are very hard to combine. 

Your army is so strong if they charge but not that many abilities to get into it.

Thats my opinion too, there’s a couple useful things but even a single stratagem to improve our movement or charging would have been enough.

 

Maybe eventually we’ll be buffed to the point that it only takes 20% of our forces to make combat to turn the tide, it was a bit like that in 7th but you could lock units more reliably then.



#63
PeteySödes

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the big problem I see is that you dont have better movement abilities.

Its like the opposite of my Templars. We have so much possibilites to charge very fast but then we dont have really good punchy stratagems (except one VERY VERY expensive). Those we have are very hard to combine.
Your army is so strong if they charge but not that many abilities to get into it.

Thats my opinion too, there’s a couple useful things but even a single stratagem to improve our movement or charging would have been enough.

Maybe eventually we’ll be buffed to the point that it only takes 20% of our forces to make combat to turn the tide, it was a bit like that in 7th but you could lock units more reliably then.

I think that entirely depends. It’s anecdotal for sure, but I was able to beat a few IH lists the winter/fall when a pittance of my list actually lived to see combat. Now it’s even better and as others have mentioned that squad HI strat is going to be evil.

#64
Karhedron

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Let's not underestimate the value of "Canticle of Hate" for getting into melee. It is a 6" bubble ability centered on the Priest so multiple units can benefit from it.

I know it is not very glamourous because all Astartes get that ability but I think we are better placed than most to leverage it. I have done reasonably well with my Mech wolves in 8th edition and I think that may still be the way to go. T1 move forward with shooty transports (Repulsors, Razorbacks etc) supported by a few Jump Characters. T2, disembark multiple units that can do well in both shooting and melee (ABR Vet Intercessors, Grey Hunters etc), shoot and charge. We should do quite a bit of damage and T3 our doctrine kicks in making the survivors even more deadly.

More of a massed charge than the precision attacks of the Blood Angels.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#65
TheWolfLord

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Let's not underestimate the value of "Canticle of Hate" for getting into melee. It is a 6" bubble ability centered on the Priest so multiple units can benefit from it.

I know it is not very glamourous because all Astartes get that ability but I think we are better placed than most to leverage it. I have done reasonably well with my Mech wolves in 8th edition and I think that may still be the way to go. T1 move forward with shooty transports (Repulsors, Razorbacks etc) supported by a few Jump Characters. T2, disembark multiple units that can do well in both shooting and melee (ABR Vet Intercessors, Grey Hunters etc), shoot and charge. We should do quite a bit of damage and T3 our doctrine kicks in making the survivors even more deadly.

More of a massed charge than the precision attacks of the Blood Angels.

Canticles of hate is key for us and we’ll get more use out of it than most Marines.

 

I’m certainly not going to complain about that but it’s going to mean most SW stratagems revolve around a single 3+ roll (with reroll) and little else to fall back on if that fails. 
 

I’ve heard lots of people demanding similar levels of mobility to Blood Angels and I think that’s greedy, I’d have liked to see 1 more than we have now though considering our reserve strat have restrictions of placement and we over rely on things like Wulfen and reroll charges.

 

Ragnars 6” consolidation and the canticle might be enough, it’ll take more finesse to use well in comparison to BA but I don’t mind that. Only trying these out will answer these questions but I’d have been more confident if we had just 1 more option.



#66
TiguriusX

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I hate to say it...but for competitive play a single inquisitor with the terrify spell will be valuable to a "pure" wolf army

Terrify turns off overwatch for a single unit within 18" with a WC of 6
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#67
Wolf Guard Dan

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I hate to say it...but for competitive play a single inquisitor with the terrify spell will be valuable to a "pure" wolf army

Terrify turns off overwatch for a single unit within 18" with a WC of 6

 

Inquisitor Annika Jarlsdottyr may be a good addition to a SW army from time to time. Impulsors would also weather a good amount of overwatch. And maybe converting some long-boats is the way to go instead of impulsor kit. Are pimping the impulsor to look like a long-boat.

 

It may take us a little bit to adapt to the new rules. I would give the update a B+. It brought us to power levels consistent with the Codex Space Marines sans the supplements. Maybe just below vanilla C:SM power level. Ragnar is a great character, not an auto include but very strong. I am pretty happy with the book. Of course it comes when my state goes on lock-down. *loses another marble* It is going to be a long 2 weeks.


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*wolf howl*!!!!
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#68
The Saint Ragnar

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I've done two test games whole in lockdown with the new stuff and honestly I think we are in a great spot. I haven't played a competitive game yet but I've done two pretty much that without the ITC ruleset and rolled hard over my opponents. One was a melee focused and one had a decent amount of shooting.

Both times the buffs we got came in clutch with the +2" charge mixed with advance and charge bringing my lines crashing into theirs. The Wolf Guard doing mortals on 6s in my shooting list murdered two squads. I honestly think we are in a good place, of course dice can always turn against you but smart play is definitely rewarded with us now
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For Russ and the AllFather!

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Space Wolves - ~3,000 Points

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#69
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I only play mono codex armies. I have always played that and will never change from it.

This does not really help us. We still have no cheap troops to screen. We still do not have good psyker powers. We still have expensive TWC that even with a CP card doesn't give them a spot on a list. 

 

Most importantly we still have no ways native to our army to get us into combat faster. We still will be able consistently shot off the table before we can get into combat by T3. 

 

The change to WP has gutted the Stormwolf with WP/Wulfen combo. It is now completely useless. All the meh things added to combat don't mean squat when you will be shot off the table before they can do anything.

 

A very disappointing "upgrade" to our army. I don't know why GW is determined to make Space Wolves absolute garbage in 8th but they have done a fantastic job in keeping us as the worst army in 8th. 


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#70
PeteySödes

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So it’s becoming clear that I’m not going to convince you to change you’re perspective here Bulwyf, but basically everything you said excepting the one combo changing is simply not true.

Tempestus discipline, while yes overcosted by maybe 1WC for most powers, is very good and pairs very well with the new relics and doctrines. Living lightning and FotWS has won me so many games I honestly can’t read your post with a straight face.

We still have less ways to get in combat than say blood angels but it’s not the end of the world and we’re certainly not unplayable. All I ask is you get a few games in with the new rules before tossing your army in the bin.

I have no doubt there’s going to be some synergy in there that’s not readily apparent in a preview and no games played. I also have no doubt sad posting isn’t going to find it.

Edited by PeteySödes, 22 March 2020 - 03:01 AM.

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#71
TiguriusX

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The loss of storm wolf wolf priest has opened the door for jump pack wolf priest.

Litany activation is a pre battle round dice roll

You will know before your movement phase if the buff is active or not

Hide out of LOS and jump and d6 advance in position

Bring your outflanked blood claws and wulfen safely onto the table knowing you have a rerollable 7" charge

Edited by TiguriusX, 22 March 2020 - 03:12 AM.

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#72
Wolf Guard Dan

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I only play mono codex armies. I have always played that and will never change from it.

This does not really help us. We still have no cheap troops to screen. We still do not have good psyker powers. We still have expensive TWC that even with a CP card doesn't give them a spot on a list. 

 

Most importantly we still have no ways native to our army to get us into combat faster. We still will be able consistently shot off the table before we can get into combat by T3. 

 

The change to WP has gutted the Stormwolf with WP/Wulfen combo. It is now completely useless. All the meh things added to combat don't mean squat when you will be shot off the table before they can do anything.

 

A very disappointing "upgrade" to our army. I don't know why GW is determined to make Space Wolves absolute garbage in 8th but they have done a fantastic job in keeping us as the worst army in 8th. 

 

Same, I prefer mono codex armies. It is comes with an increased difficulty. Allow me to throw some ideas your way. They may not work for you or your meta though.

 

It stinks we don't have cheap Troops, like marines have scouts. But we do have cheap fenrisian wolves in fast attack that have larger bases than scouts. We are an elite army and do have access to incursors and infiltrators. Infiltrators are the best screening unit in the game but they are expensive.

 

I am disappointed they didn't do something with our psychic powers. Or add a fire group of powers. We are a world of extremes- ice and fire! GW does miss out on The Rout's duality sometimes. TWC don't really have a spot on my list due to how cavalry is at a disadvantage in the core rules. Hopefully that changes in 9th edition. Which is on the horizon.

 

I forget if you're against impulsors/primaris or not, but I think tranports are very important right now and impulsors are sturdy as heck. We do have on the hunt which allows us to place an anvil deep. What I think is cool and very wolfy for our army is that once we get to combat we keep moving moving moving. Especially with Ragnar's 6" consolidate bubble. We are just going to move so fast through the enemy ranks. It is insane. Slow to get there but once we get there, oh frickin boy.

 

I'd rather have litany than having to invest so many points into stormwolf + wolf priest + wulfen. If you are concerned swap that wolf priest for a lord. Rerolls of 1 vs all misses but the lord has better combat output than the priest. What is surviving that unit of Wulfen anyway?


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*wolf howl*!!!!
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#73
Jarl Caldersson

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Moved new information about Saga of the Beast from the speculation thread to this new thread. Keep it civil.


Edited by Jarl Caldersson, 22 March 2020 - 06:01 AM.

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#74
Bulwyf

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So it’s becoming clear that I’m not going to convince you to change you’re perspective here Bulwyf, but basically everything you said excepting the one combo changing is simply not true.

Tempestus discipline, while yes overcosted by maybe 1WC for most powers, is very good and pairs very well with the new relics and doctrines. Living lightning and FotWS has won me so many games I honestly can’t read your post with a straight face.

We still have less ways to get in combat than say blood angels but it’s not the end of the world and we’re certainly not unplayable. All I ask is you get a few games in with the new rules before tossing your army in the bin.

I have no doubt there’s going to be some synergy in there that’s not readily apparent in a preview and no games played. I also have no doubt sad posting isn’t going to find it.

 

Everything I said was not true except the Stormwolf combo? Did I read that correctly?

 

Please show me the cheap troop option we have for screen and formation tax. Oh wait. We still don't have it.

 

Please show me the new ways we have to get into combat quicker like Blood Angels got. Oh wait. We still don't have it.

 

I have noticed a tendency on here to attack the poster instead of the post when said posts offer negative but accurate criticism. Not one time have I said I was tossing my army in a bin or was refusing to play Space Wolves. I have played this army since it became a legal army to use in the rules. I started playing Warhammer Fantasy Battles in 1986. When Rogue Trader came out I started playing that. I have been here for the very, very long haul and will continue to be here. 

 

It is not up  for debate that Space Wolves have been absolutely terrible throughout 8th edition. I along with others have been waiting for real positive changes to get us some badly needed help. Our two main problems are lacking cheap troops for screens and formations and the lack of innate ability in our rules to get into combat quicker. Is this also untrue?  

 

You can disagree with me. I am fine with that. Stating I am essentially being dishonest with my posts is unfair.  Trust me, I'm not throwing out the thousands and thousands of points and dollars I have invested in Space Wolves in a fit of pique. 


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#75
Bulwyf

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The loss of storm wolf wolf priest has opened the door for jump pack wolf priest.

Litany activation is a pre battle round dice roll

You will know before your movement phase if the buff is active or not

Hide out of LOS and jump and d6 advance in position

Bring your outflanked blood claws and wulfen safely onto the table knowing you have a rerollable 7" charge

 

I don't know how I am going to field my SW at this point. My WP in the Stormwolf already had a jump pack so he could always stay in range of the Wulfen he's leading around. The nerf to WP means that combo is now dead. I don't see any point in a Stormwolf any more since their ability to deliver that combo is gone. I never liked the come off the table use for Wulfen because they simply die without a transport.  The only other option for them is the laughably terrible Land raider which unless it gets an invuln save at some point is just not worth the points.

 

I have posted probably a few dozen SW army lists on the forum here for SW army lists. I will tinker with some things and try to find something that works for me. I will never soup. I can't stand how badly they nerfed WP so I don't think I will be using them as well. I am ironically tempted to just forget combat completely and go with nothing but dreds and vehicles which is not at all how I ever played SW. Other armies do the castle or mobile firebase far better than SW can do so....we'll see. 


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