Wolf Guard Dan Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 We are different. We don’t have a cheap troop screen. Why should we? We aren’t faster than a jump pack army. Why should we be? Our toolkit is different. The flavor of our chapter works against us in those two regards. I agree with you on many of your points. I figure your reply was mostly not directed at my post. We have been bad this entire edition. There’s no disputing that. At this point we have to move past our hopes and work with what we got. I think it can be good. Give it a chance. We finally arrived in 8th edition. The update was middle of the road. At least it wasn’t as bad as the GSC update. . Bulwyf 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) space wolves having trouble getting into combat seems like an intentional design choice. it's not an oversight, its something they expect Space Wolves players to have to manage. thes new rules does give rich rewards for pulling it off, so you can juice your CC at the right moment (and perhaps make up for casualities taken crossing the board) rhino/impulsor rush seems to be the way to go, target priority challenges, with flexible troops that can shoot and punch. Edited March 22, 2020 by Wispy Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Caldersson Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 space wolves having trouble getting into combat seems like an intentional design choice. it's not an oversight, its something they expect Space Wolves players to have to manage. thes new rules does give rich rewards for pulling it off, so you can juice your CC at the right moment (and perhaps make up for casualities taken crossing the board) rhino/impulsor rush seems to be the way to go, target priority challenges, with flexible troops that can shoot and punch. While I think we should require some thinking to get our guys into melee, the issue is that the hill to get there is way to steep. The idea of "everything can hurt everything" and "mortal wounds go through invuln" make it neigh impossible to get into melee. Vehicles should be shrugging off small arms fire but are obliterated by mass fire. The other side of the table require very little thinking as if you were going against a shooty army they can castle up and shoot. The range of many weapons is to far and some can even go through cover. They balance between the two is very stark and needs to be rebalanced. I would suggest removing everything can damage everything, or giving vehicles 2 saves against small arms fire. Anything to keep those tanks alive a little longer. Bulwyf 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Closet Skeleton Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) Everything I said was not true except the Stormwolf combo? Did I read that correctly? Please show me the cheap troop option we have for screen and formation tax. Oh wait. We still don't have it. Please show me the new ways we have to get into combat quicker like Blood Angels got. Oh wait. We still don't have it. Blood Angels didn't get any new ways to get into combat in PA, they just have their codex stuff that got nerfed. Space Wolves are supposed to be a counter attack gunline army not a rush forwards fast army like Blood Angels. Black Templars and White Scars have all the same problems as SW in being an assault loyalist marine army that isn't the no1 best version of that. Space marines don't need cheap troops to take double battalion. Grey Hunters are only 1 point more per model than Codex Scouts. Space wolves can take Incursors and Invictors who can easily assault very early but I understand that's a bad answer to a lot of people. Wolf Priests weren't nerfed, they got the 5+ vs psychic mortal wounds litany than everyone got so cheap screens don't matter in that situation. Rerolling fully to hit in CC shouldn't be that useful to SW anyway when they hit on 2s so much, just bring a Wolf Lord. The other side of the table require very little thinking as if you were going against a shooty army they can castle up and shoot. The range of many weapons is to far and some can even go through cover. Its more than 60% of weapons never see the board in competative lists. Gunlines are the way they are only if they're optimised, its not a trait of the edition. If you take an actual variety of weapons the amount of firepower drops massively. You need los blocking terrain for the game to work at all. At least 3 baneblade sized pieces in the center line. You also need to play missions that can't be won by castling which is most of the new Chapter Approved ones. I've never lost rhinos to small arms fire, high shot damage 2 fire isn't 'small arms' its just currently too efficient. Not being able to survive against top tier gun lines isn't a space wolf thing, those lists are high tier because everyone has trouble with them. Just being 'new marines minus' will put Space Wolves way above actually trash monobuild armies like Tyranids and Necrons. Edited March 22, 2020 by Closet Skeleton One Two Wolf and Karhedron 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Two Wolf Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 LF are maybe the best devastators eqv in the game, strats included. You can bring them in, point and delete, repeat next turn for another 140-160 points plus the cp. They are independent, cheapish, and powerful. Add to that genuine hitting power the cc potential of the army and a door to door delivery system that takes no real effort to pull off and we would be the o-ist of op. Then there's forgeworld to consider. Leviathans, LR achilles (4+ invun) and so on. The wolves are solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Shepherd Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Points values all the same Other than Land speeders that are again incorrectly 70 points. I still fail to understand why our Scout Bikes are 31 points when others are 21 too. They just straight ported the points from CA or maybe the books were written at the same time Dont get me started on wolf scout bikes :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) Points values all the same Other than Land speeders that are again incorrectly 70 points. I still fail to understand why our Scout Bikes are 31 points when others are 21 too. They just straight ported the points from CA or maybe the books were written at the same time Dont get me started on wolf scout bikes :) Wolf scout anything for that matter lol Edited March 22, 2020 by Rune Priest Jbickb DanPesci 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteySödes Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 So it’s becoming clear that I’m not going to convince you to change you’re perspective here Bulwyf, but basically everything you said excepting the one combo changing is simply not true. Tempestus discipline, while yes overcosted by maybe 1WC for most powers, is very good and pairs very well with the new relics and doctrines. Living lightning and FotWS has won me so many games I honestly can’t read your post with a straight face. We still have less ways to get in combat than say blood angels but it’s not the end of the world and we’re certainly not unplayable. All I ask is you get a few games in with the new rules before tossing your army in the bin. I have no doubt there’s going to be some synergy in there that’s not readily apparent in a preview and no games played. I also have no doubt sad posting isn’t going to find it. Everything I said was not true except the Stormwolf combo? Did I read that correctly? Please show me the cheap troop option we have for screen and formation tax. Oh wait. We still don't have it. Please show me the new ways we have to get into combat quicker like Blood Angels got. Oh wait. We still don't have it. I have noticed a tendency on here to attack the poster instead of the post when said posts offer negative but accurate criticism. Not one time have I said I was tossing my army in a bin or was refusing to play Space Wolves. I have played this army since it became a legal army to use in the rules. I started playing Warhammer Fantasy Battles in 1986. When Rogue Trader came out I started playing that. I have been here for the very, very long haul and will continue to be here. It is not up for debate that Space Wolves have been absolutely terrible throughout 8th edition. I along with others have been waiting for real positive changes to get us some badly needed help. Our two main problems are lacking cheap troops for screens and formations and the lack of innate ability in our rules to get into combat quicker. Is this also untrue? You can disagree with me. I am fine with that. Stating I am essentially being dishonest with my posts is unfair. Trust me, I'm not throwing out the thousands and thousands of points and dollars I have invested in Space Wolves in a fit of pique. Pointing out that something is incorrect or untrue doesn’t make something an accusation of dishonesty. I am simply trying massage the negativity into critical thinking and something constructive. As for ways to get into combat we got litanies that increase charge range, stratagems to HI, relics that make the sagas pop faster which can be used to help with that, and likely a myriad or other things we haven’t seen or thought about yet. The cheap troops thing is likely intentional as well. This to me seems like a cake and eat it too thing, had they taken out our elite Wolf Scouts and turned them into basic ones people would have complained too. Are those the only two options? Obviously not but they were the two probable ones. I’d would also be shocked if this wasn’t something addressed in 9th so why worry, I just don’t think this is the debilitating issue you think it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) Everything I said was not true except the Stormwolf combo? Did I read that correctly? Please show me the cheap troop option we have for screen and formation tax. Oh wait. We still don't have it. Please show me the new ways we have to get into combat quicker like Blood Angels got. Oh wait. We still don't have it. Blood Angels didn't get any new ways to get into combat in PA, they just have their codex stuff that got nerfed. Space Wolves are supposed to be a counter attack gunline army not a rush forwards fast army like Blood Angels. Black Templars and White Scars have all the same problems as SW in being an assault loyalist marine army that isn't the no1 best version of that. BA statement is false. PA updated their chapter tactic and gave everything +1 to charge. That is huge. As for WS they are absolutely the best version of assault marine. I have been playing that codex while waiting for SW to update. WS have numerous tricks related combat including: (1) turning off overwatch with WC6 psyker spell (2) reducing charge distance via relic and WC6 psyker spell (3) WL trait to prevent enemy from falling back (4) Stratagem to attack enemy falling back (5) The entire army can advance and charge as well as fall back and charge Edited March 22, 2020 by TiguriusX Bulwyf 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorin Helm-splitter Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) I've also been using the white scar rules and they are in good shape. They have more combat tricks than what TiguriusX mentioned most notably one that improves a units consolidation move, and another one that helps with long charges. That said I think part of why they work is that they save you from the temptation of using a Deathstar because they flat out don't have one. The stormwolf, wulfen, wolf priest combo effectively is one, and it will struggle against a lot of armies. Bulwyf's suggestions are needed for an army trying to use it, and that particular build of wolves didn't really get much help. Personally I think wolves are in a much better place with psychic awakening our shooting got quite a bit better with doctrines, we got useful relics, and several good stratagems (don't sleep on the generic ones from the marine codex several of them are strong). I think rhino/implusor rush is going to be a strong choice, and our best lists will be built around grey hunters/Intercessors. Edited March 22, 2020 by Jorin Helm-splitter Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 We are different. We don’t have a cheap troop screen. Why should we? We aren’t faster than a jump pack army. Why should we be? Our toolkit is different. The flavor of our chapter works against us in those two regards. I agree with you on many of your points. I figure your reply was mostly not directed at my post. We have been bad this entire edition. There’s no disputing that. At this point we have to move past our hopes and work with what we got. I think it can be good. Give it a chance. We finally arrived in 8th edition. The update was middle of the road. At least it wasn’t as bad as the GSC update. . yes, I was quoting directly the person that said that my prior post was essentially all untrue. I agreed with what you said in your earlier post. The main problems we still have are no cheap troop screen and no way to get into combat faster. Those aren't just minor issues. Those are foundations of any list and any combination you want to make for your army. You need cheap troops to both screen and fill out formations. You need ways to get into combat faster because our whole army is essentially a combat based army esp. after this update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 I want to reassure everyone here that I am not going to stop playing Space Wolves. I have read your PMs. Thank you for your concern brothers. If I can keep playing after watching an Iron Hands player consistently shoot me off the table by T2 then having a bad update isn't going to run me off! Once we get battlescribe updated with the new stuff I will try to crank out some lists. My local store like most no longer has gaming due to the virus but I play more home games anyways so hopefully I can test things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gherrick Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 If anyone has ideas on how we can win vs the grey knights, advice welcome. Since their update, it's been about as bad of a match up as you can imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Dan Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Just a heads up for people looking to split the box with an orc player. The value ratio is 40-60 SW to Orks. So you should try negotiating a fair equity split with the ork player. Good luck. Bulwyf, Dark Shepherd, Triszin and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Saint Ragnar Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) I'm not sure how many of the brothers are locked in their homes at this point. But the two games I spoke of were done with some mates on Tabletop Simulator. So if you have a bunch of good mates willing to let you try the new stuff you need only pay $20 and then download and play to your hearts content. I think this will help alleviate some concerns or our brothers which can be warranted as well as help the brothers itching to try the new toys a chance. There are a good amount of SW specific models made and I used a grey generic legion for the things I was missing as that's the colour for my Great Company anyway. I'm looking forward to getting the book for the fluff and rules and then trying everything to its fullest amount. The Wolftime hasn't come yet, but I have a feeling we will see it on the horizon when 9th drops. Edited March 22, 2020 by The Saint Ragnar TiguriusX, hammer grimblood and Bulwyf 3 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 I'm not sure how many of the brothers are locked in their homes at this point. But the two games I spoke of were done with some mates on Tabletop Simulator. So if you have a bunch of good mates willing to let you try the new stuff you need only pay $20 and then download and play to your hearts content. I think this will help alleviate some concerns or our brothers which can be warranted as well as help the brothers itching to try the new toys a chance. There are a good amount of SW specific models made and I used a grey generic legion for the things I was missing as that's the colour for my Great Company anyway. I'm looking forward to getting the book for the fluff and rules and then trying everything to its fullest amount. The Wolftime hasn't come yet, but I have a feeling we will see it on the horizon when 9th drops. Speaking of the Wolftime...it has been so heavily hinted at Russ coming back that I just want to have him back in 40k. I would prefer Odin style Russ but frankly any version of him leading the Space Wolves would be awesome. Zephaniah Adriyen and Karhedron 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Closet Skeleton Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) We are different. We don’t have a cheap troop screen. Why should we? We aren’t faster than a jump pack army. Why should we be? Our toolkit is different. The flavor of our chapter works against us in those two regards. I agree with you on many of your points. I figure your reply was mostly not directed at my post. We have been bad this entire edition. There’s no disputing that. At this point we have to move past our hopes and work with what we got. I think it can be good. Give it a chance. We finally arrived in 8th edition. The update was middle of the road. At least it wasn’t as bad as the GSC update. . yes, I was quoting directly the person that said that my prior post was essentially all untrue. I agreed with what you said in your earlier post. The main problems we still have are no cheap troop screen and no way to get into combat faster. Those aren't just minor issues. Those are foundations of any list and any combination you want to make for your army. You need cheap troops to both screen and fill out formations. You need ways to get into combat faster because our whole army is essentially a combat based army esp. after this update. 60 point grey hunters isn't bad. Guard/cultist squads are 40 point minimum. 2x 5 Infiltrators, 5 incursors, 3x 5 intercessors is just under 600 points, that's still 1400 points for other stuff and can pull its weight. Iron Hands don't need anything cheaper than what space wolves have to screen with and lower tier codex chapters are doing fine as well. You don't need more than a double battalion, even with 12 point minimum troops its the HQ tax that makes going for a 6th battalion nonviable. Tournament winning marine armies are taking 400+ points of troops while chaos with thier cultists can't hack it, its simply not true that Space wolves need cheaper troops to be competative. Space Wolves are supposed to screen with Fenrisian wolves, which suffer from being Fast Attack but the speed can probably be used. If anyone has ideas on how we can win vs the grey knights, advice welcome. Since their update, it's been about as bad of a match up as you can imagine. Litany for 5+ feel no pain vs smites. Don't rely on Storm shields. Seems like a lot of the problems space wolf players have is that they don't know how 8.5 marines work and are trying to play 5th or 7th ed with deathstars. Edited March 22, 2020 by Closet Skeleton Schlitzaf and Wolf Guard Dan 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oshikai Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) I am incredibly happy that we don`t have cheap Troops for that, but thats a personal Thing. I hate all those Battalions filled with Minimum Scout Squads and similar Stuff. Just feels wrong, what drew me to Marines was the Bog-Standard Tactical Marine and his Equivalents. For the same Reason I wouldn`t want Fenris Wolves as Standard. But like I said, thats just my personal preference. Edited March 22, 2020 by Oshikai DanPesci, Triszin, PeteySödes and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triszin Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 So. With pa6 What's the minimum command points we think we need on average per game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oshikai Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 Too many ...I see all those nice Combos here and over on Facebook with People going crazy and just can`t see how you gonna pull off most of them without burning through your CP too fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain_Stormeyes Posted March 23, 2020 Author Share Posted March 23, 2020 So. With pa6 What's the minimum command points we think we need on average per game? I would say 1 battalion and 2 specialist detachments for 10 CP. That should give us enough CP to fuel the army through 2 turns and the good units to get into their lines. Alternatively, 2 battalions for 13 CP. Intercessors for one and Incursors for the other. I don't like Incursors that much, BUT they can take the mid field and create target saturation of T4 2W units. Oshikai 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteySödes Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) That’s a tough question for us I think because it’s generally best to burn early to maximize damage. In our case though we need to save some for T3 to rightly end people. It’s going to be interesting to test out the right burn rate. Curious how our BA cousins think about the issue. Edited March 23, 2020 by PeteySödes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oshikai Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) I would also be interested in how many to spent before Game. i usually take one extra Relic in the Armor of Russ for my RP. Would also like some Veteran Intercessors, but an extra Warlord Trait would also be nice... That way lies Madness. Edited March 23, 2020 by Oshikai Iain_Stormeyes 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 Just a heads up for people looking to split the box with an orc player. The value ratio is 40-60 SW to Orks. So you should try negotiating a fair equity split with the ork player. Good luck. The SW portion of that box is just terribad My FLGS is selling it for $150 right now (quarantine discount...his store had to close) Even at 60/40 split none of the SWs I know are willing to pay $60 for it I bought a random Warcry Stormcast Eternal box set instead to help out the FLGS with plans to convert the models Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 I'm not sure how many of the brothers are locked in their homes at this point. But the two games I spoke of were done with some mates on Tabletop Simulator. So if you have a bunch of good mates willing to let you try the new stuff you need only pay $20 and then download and play to your hearts content. I think this will help alleviate some concerns or our brothers which can be warranted as well as help the brothers itching to try the new toys a chance. There are a good amount of SW specific models made and I used a grey generic legion for the things I was missing as that's the colour for my Great Company anyway. I'm looking forward to getting the book for the fluff and rules and then trying everything to its fullest amount. The Wolftime hasn't come yet, but I have a feeling we will see it on the horizon when 9th drops. Just got my 1st game in today. Absolutely love it...this digital wolf was playing vassal40k in the old days. The 3D models and tools on TTS are AMAZING!!! This is a screenshot from this morning. I am making it huge so you can appreciate the models Bulwyf, GrFlur and Oshikai 3 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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