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What to do about "I can see the tip of your sword" LoS?


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#1
Zephaniah Adriyen

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So... I have one opponent right now. I can't get to any others, on account of lockdown. This one opponent happens to do rules as written only. He cares not for the spirit or the fun of the game, and, while he is correct that he can, rules as written, gun down my entire unit of Hybrid Metamorphs because the leader's Bonesword was sticking less than an eighth of an inch up above the top of the building he was hiding behind, I despise that sort of thing. How do I fix this?


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#2
Gederas

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I could have sworn that the LoS rule specifically ignores weapons, banners and other parts and only calls for the actual body of the model.

 

Unless I'm getting the Necromunda LoS rule mixed up with normal 40k.

 

And how do you fix it? Clearly removing any details that would make them stick out of cover. Just model them without arms, only nubs. Then if he asks what's going on, look him dead in the face and say "Because they got their limbs shot off"


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#3
Zephaniah Adriyen

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I could have sworn that the LoS rule specifically ignores weapons, banners and other parts and only calls for the actual body of the model.

 

Unless I'm getting the Necromunda LoS rule mixed up with normal 40k.

 

And how do you fix it? Clearly removing any details that would make them stick out of cover. Just model them without arms, only nubs. Then if he asks what's going on, look him dead in the face and say "Because they got their limbs shot off"

I would - but they're painted, and I'm rather proud of them.

Edit: Love the new profile pic, by the way. Looks good on you.


Edited by Zephaniah Adriyen, 25 March 2020 - 04:25 AM.

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#4
Boytoy

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tell your opponent that line of sight should be measured by seeing either the head, torso or base of the model? this guy seems like a real douche canoe, sorry that's who you're stuck with


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#5
Slave to Darkness

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At the start of the game say all your minis have sweaty armpits and they have their arms down so nobody can see the wet patches, or put the old Thunderhawk in a very large sock and start swinging... 

 

Or if that fails just tell him he is sucking the joy out of the game and for once can he ignore any sword tips or wavy fleshy bits... 


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#6
MARK0SIAN

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Just don’t play the guy. No games is preferable to bad games with that guy.

If you like, you can explain that’s what you’re going to do in a last ditch attempt to get him to change his behaviour but be prepared to walk away. People who are so blind to the fun of a game rarely change their behaviour.

Line of sight does (sadly) include any part of a model but it shouldn’t.
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#7
Panzer

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Pretty much nothing you can do about it. Either you are on the same page about RAW or not. If you can't agree on the RAW of the core rules the only alternative is to find someone else to play. Personally I don't think he's wrong though and anything else would be houserules.


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#8
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#9
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I'd confront the individual. I've been there before, in fact that's one of the reasons I stopped going to my FLGS (or if I do, it's just to play against friends on a regular table).

The worst that could happen is they won't play against you anymore and you can just concentrate on the hobby for now until this whole thing blows over, and trust me... the hobby aspect is just as much fun as the gaming portion of 40K.
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#10
Overwhelming Odds

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My two cents: I think the intention of the current rules is clear (8th).  Even in 7th Edition it was clarified in a Rulebook FAQ.  Here is the relevant passage:

 

Q: Warhammer 40,000: The Rules states that line of sight can be drawn from any part of the model (not including wings, tail, etc.) to the intended target. Can my model’s foot truly be used as a line of sight starting point?
A: For simplicity and ease of play, the rules state that ‘For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace a straight, unblocked line from its body (the head, torso, arms or legs) to any part of the target’s body.’ If you wish, you and your opponent may agree that models are only allowed to draw line of sight from the model’s head, or the closest equivalent on the model.

 

If that does not convey the intent to your opponent, submit this question and try to get an official answer.  I bet you get a similar answer to what was stated above.

 

Shooting a gun, sword, etc does not even pass a sanity check as to why it should cause the model  damage.  Wings, talons, parts of the models body are fair game.  Shooting a banner and telling me my model is dead?  Nope, can't make that slightly believable.  Same as drawing line-of sight from an axe on a Bloodthirster.  No and more no.

 

Plus, I agree with almost all the comments above.   

 

V/r,

 

Dan


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#11
Panzer

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If that does not convey the intent to your opponent, submit this question and try to get an official answer.  I bet you get a similar answer to what was stated above.

 

Shooting a gun, sword, etc does not even pass a sanity check as to why it should cause the model  damage.  Wings, talons, parts of the models body are fair game.  Shooting a banner and telling me my model is dead?  Nope, can't make that slightly believable.  Same as drawing line-of sight from an axe on a Bloodthirster.  No and more no.

 

Plus, I agree with almost all the comments above.   

 

V/r,

 

Dan

 

I wouldn't hold my breath. You can bet all your money that this is a question that got submitted several times already.

 

Also you don't shoot a gun, sword, etc. 8th edition is a lot more abstract than 7th edition in that regard. It's assument that because the model's sword can be seen that it's plausible that the model moves in a way that a part of his actual body could be seen at some point there too. It doesn't always make sense but it's the crappy LoS/cover/terrain rules we got this edition.


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#12
Overwhelming Odds

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I was sure that this was addressed and I found the reference.  There is a designers note box in Chapter Approved 2018.  It is at the bottom left corner of page 29.  The page is about obscured targets in "Cities of Death".  This seems pretty clear to me that the same mentality exists with the designers and their intent is clear as well.

 

Hope it helps!

 

V/r,

 

Dan


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#13
Jolemai

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My two cents: I think the intention of the current rules is clear (8th).  Even in 7th Edition it was clarified in a Rulebook FAQ.  Here is the relevant passage:

 

Q: Warhammer 40,000: The Rules states that line of sight can be drawn from any part of the model (not including wings, tail, etc.) to the intended target. Can my model’s foot truly be used as a line of sight starting point?
A: For simplicity and ease of play, the rules state that ‘For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace a straight, unblocked line from its body (the head, torso, arms or legs) to any part of the target’s body.’ If you wish, you and your opponent may agree that models are only allowed to draw line of sight from the model’s head, or the closest equivalent on the model.

 

If that does not convey the intent to your opponent, submit this question and try to get an official answer.  I bet you get a similar answer to what was stated above.

 

Shooting a gun, sword, etc does not even pass a sanity check as to why it should cause the model  damage.  Wings, talons, parts of the models body are fair game.  Shooting a banner and telling me my model is dead?  Nope, can't make that slightly believable.  Same as drawing line-of sight from an axe on a Bloodthirster.  No and more no.

 

Plus, I agree with almost all the comments above.   

 

V/r,

 

Dan

With all due respect, if that's a passage from a FAQ from a different edition, then it's completely irrelevant to the current ruleset.


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#14
Panzer

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I was sure that this was addressed and I found the reference.  There is a designers note box in Chapter Approved 2018.  It is at the bottom left corner of page 29.  The page is about obscured targets in "Cities of Death".  This seems pretty clear to me that the same mentality exists with the designers and their intent is clear as well.

 

Hope it helps!

 

V/r,

 

Dan

 

Cities of Death is basically a terrain rules supplement that greatly enhances and partly changes the core terrain and LoS rules. You can't reference those when talking about the core rules at all.


Edited by Panzer, 25 March 2020 - 12:33 PM.

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#15
Halandaar

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The best way to demonstrate how nonsensical this position is, is to find a really obnoxious unit and stick a 2ft tall aerial on it, allowing it to draw LoS to every one of his models regardless of what cover they might have, and blow them away.


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#16
Panzer

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The best way to demonstrate how nonsensical this position is, is to find a really obnoxious unit and stick a 2ft tall aerial on it, allowing it to draw LoS to every one of his models regardless of what cover they might have, and blow them away.

It's called modeling for advantage and would break every edition of warhammer not just this, so it demonstrates effectively nothing except that you can break a system if you really want to.


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#17
Halandaar

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It's called modeling for advantage and would break every edition of warhammer not just this, so it demonstrates effectively nothing except that you can break a system if you really want to.

 

Sure. But can you tell me which page of the Core Rules the bit about Modelling for Advantage is which tells me I can't do that?


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#18
Overwhelming Odds

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I was just offering a simple solution. Only agree to play "cities of death" with this opponent. Then there is clear guidance in writing.
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#19
Zephaniah Adriyen

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I was just offering a simple solution. Only agree to play "cities of death" with this opponent. Then there is clear guidance in writing.

Now we're getting into the fact that I don't have enough terrain to do that.


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#20
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Don’t play this guy .


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#21
Zephaniah Adriyen

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Don’t play this guy .

He's my only opponent right now, it's him or nobody. Yay quarantine.


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#22
Jarl of Wulfen

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Make your terrain taller to cover the height of the model

#23
Zephaniah Adriyen

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Make your terrain taller to cover the height of the model

It's the cardboard box terrain out of Know No Fear. Ain't really adjustable.


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#24
Lord_Caerolion

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The best way to demonstrate how nonsensical this position is, is to find a really obnoxious unit and stick a 2ft tall aerial on it, allowing it to draw LoS to every one of his models regardless of what cover they might have, and blow them away.

It's called modeling for advantage and would break every edition of warhammer not just this, so it demonstrates effectively nothing except that you can break a system if you really want to.

 

 

I mean, this guy's arguably already doing that. 


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#25
Excessus

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Right, this thread is dipping its toes into rules discussions here and there and was as such moved down to the +OFFICIAL RULES+ section. But since it's mainly concerned with advice about facing a certain opponent, it has been moved back here.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled programs:

 

It's a tricky question for sure, and the way I see it is if you don't have any other options than to play him, you have three options.

 

#1: Build new terrain! People are self-isolating with lots of time on their hands. There is usually plenty of parts to use in a standard household (make pipes out of empty loo rolls, lol)

 

#2: Play his game against him, if he can see you, you can see him! (maybe he notices the ridiculousness of it)

 

#3: Just be "zen" about it. Realise that he will do these things, but in the end it's his karma and it's fun to roll dice. (besides, after the lockdown you never have to play him again ;) )


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