Land Speeder crew helmets, yellow or not?

[Iron Lord]

 

 

Yeah regular vehicles like Razorbacks, Invictor Warsuits etc. are driven by any Marine that's available in the company and not currently deployed together with their squad (because they are only deployed as half squad or whatever reason you can come up with). Or traditionally by Techmarines which wear Mars red armour.

 

 

Only aircraft are normally flown by full  Techmarines - everything else can be driven  by a regular marine, or a trainee from the Armoury who hasn't reached full Techmarine status.

 

That's wrong. They aren't "not yet ready". They are fully trained and won't leave the 10th to join another company ever. It's just that the 10th got extended to contain more than Marines in training. 

 

 

Not according to the 8e 2nd edition of the Space Marine Codex. That was explicit that, after the implantation process is complete, a Marine spends time in the 10th Company, as a Vanguard  Marine, before transferring to the Reserve Companies.

 

Gaius Pollandus's  career showcases this:

 

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gaius_Pollandus

 

first he's a Scout, then a  Reiver of the 10th Company, then an Infiltrator of the 10th Company, before transferring to the 9th Reserve Company.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Iron Lord

[Majkhel]

 

Not according to the 8e 2nd edition of the Space Marine Codex. That was explicit that, after the implantation process is complete, a Marine spends time in the 10th Company, as a Vanguard  Marine, before transferring to the Reserve Companies.

 

Gaius Pollandus's  career showcases this:

 

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gaius_Pollandus

 

first he's a Scout, then a  Reiver of the 10th Company, then an Infiltrator of the 10th Company, before transferring to the 9th Reserve Company.

This is very interesting, but inconsistent with our BA lore, at least for a firstborn marines, as firstborn Blood Angels are created differently - all the organs are applied at the same time (except the Black Carapace) and then a novitiate grows with them in the Sarcophagus while the gene-seed is activated with the blood of Sanguinius. He either lives or dies (during the process or is executed if he emrges deformed). Then he trains in the 10th Company as a Scout.

 

Perhaps Primaris do follow a different path, although this Gaius Pollandus' case is also not consistent with the Vanguard Space Marines minidex, where Vanguard were described as hard-bitten veterans... It also says that he was a Scout first and there are no Primaris Scouts yet. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Majkhel

[Xenith]

 

 It also says that he was a Scout first and there are no Primaris Scouts yet. 

 

Maybe that could be reconciled with the gradual implantation of generic SM organs as they are scouts - typically they only receive the black carapce last and after all their training as a scout. One could be a scout, and then receive the primaris unique organs.  Or does the primaris project bypass that and follow BA procedure for simultaneous implantation?

 

Purging of Kallidus, by Gav Thorpe, shows a scout squad all at various stages of implantation, and hence battle effectiveness. 

[Panzer]

If I recall correctly Primaris get produced similar to the BA procedure. It's been a while since I read that though.

[Iron Lord]

 

 

Maybe that could be reconciled with the gradual implantation of generic SM organs as they are scouts - typically they only receive the black carapce last and after all their training as a scout. One could be a scout, and then receive the primaris unique organs.  

 

 Primaris implants  normally come between implant 3 and implant 4, at least according to Lexicanum.

 

 

IMO,  Primaris Scouts are regular Scouts,  who have received the Primaris implants, but still fight as regular Scouts, because they have not yet received the Black Carapace. Their Primaris organs are not yet mature enough to make a major difference to their capabilities.

 

(It's worth noting that Primaris Marines have the same Strength and Toughness as regular Marines - they just have one extra wound. I would say that it's the combination of Primaris organs and Mark X armour that gives them that extra Wound - so a Scout with Primaris implants can have the same stats as a regular Scout without significantly throwing off suspension of belief.)

 

 

It says of Pollandus that once all his organs had matured and he'd gotten used to them, he was ready to join a Reiver Squad - but that this Reiver Squad was in the 10th Company. He also fought as an Infiltrator for a bit, still in the 10th Company, after that. Only then, did he leave the company and join the 9th Reserve Company.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps Primaris do follow a different path, although this Gaius Pollandus' case is also not consistent with the Vanguard Space Marines minidex, where Vanguard were described as hard-bitten veterans... It also says that he was a Scout first and there are no Primaris Scouts yet. 

 

 

 

The Vanguard mini-dex was written in March 2019. The 8e 2nd edition Marines Codex was written in August 2019. It has more info.

 

 

"Vanguard as hard-bitten veterans" covers the occasions when a Battle Company or  Reserve Company all don Phobos armour and "go to war as Vanguard".

 

 

Every Primaris Marine in the Battle Companies and Reserve Companies is capable of using Phobos armour and Vanguard equipment- because the set of Vanguard skills  is the first thing  a Marine learns in between completing their term as a Scout, and becoming a member of the 9th or 8th Company  - whichever of those two reserve companies  is the first that they join (Blood Angel ex-Scouts normally join the 8th Company first, based on the whole "Blood Angels are first Assault Marines,  then Devastator Marines, then Tactical Marines" thing - others normally join the 9th Company first - "Devastators, then Assault, then Tactical").

 

 

And the place that they learn those skills, is in the 10 Vanguard Squads attached  to the 10th Company. A regular marine will go straight to the Reserve Companies as soon as they've recovered from implantation of Black Carapace. A Primaris has to learn the Vanguard skills first - and they will usually do some fighting as Vanguard Squads too, before they leave the 10th company.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Iron Lord

[Venerable Jazzman]

Paint the pilot's helmet yellow, and the gunner's blue? Problem solved.

[Iron Lord]

Paint the pilot's helmet yellow, and the gunner's blue? Problem solved.

 

That actually would make a certain amount of sense for the "squads deployed incomplete, contributing their spare members to other roles" principle.

 

 

In Battle Companies in particular,  everybody is expected to be able to do something other than "participate in a squad".

 

So, helmet colour will depend entirely on who is available to do the piloting. Nobody's going to repaint their helmet when they, temporarily, do some piloting/driving.

 

I could definitely see heavy weapon gunners, at least, coming from "spare Devastators" and having blue helmets.

[Majkhel]

 

Every Primaris Marine in the Battle Companies and Reserve Companies is capable of using Phobos armour and Vanguard equipment- because the set of Vanguard skills  is the first thing  a Marine learns in between completing their term as a Scout, and becoming a member of the 9th or 8th Company  - whichever of those two reserve companies  is the first that they join (Blood Angel ex-Scouts normally join the 8th Company first, based on the whole "Blood Angels are first Assault Marines,  then Devastator Marines, then Tactical Marines" thing - others normally join the 9th Company first - "Devastators, then Assault, then Tactical").

 

And the place that they learn those skills, is in the 10 Vanguard Squads attached  to the 10th Company. A regular marine will go straight to the Reserve Companies as soon as they've recovered from implantation of Black Carapace. A Primaris has to learn the Vanguard skills first - and they will usually do some fighting as Vanguard Squads too, before they leave the 10th company.

Don't mean to offend you, but this is all pure speculation based on the Ultramarines. As I said earlier, Blood Angels handle their standard organ implantations differently than what's described in the Codex:Space Marines and so they normally train almost fully matured (in terms of physical changes) scouts.

For the above to be true, they would need to revise their whole procedure for creating new battle-brothers and training system.

It is possible (however again - pure speculation), that Blood Angels no longer create standard marines after the Devastation of Baal due to destruction of most of the Sarcophagi by a genestealer attack. Nothing about this is hinted in our current Codex though.

 

 

The Vanguard mini-dex was written in March 2019. The 8e 2nd edition Marines Codex was written in August 2019. It has more info.

 

"Vanguard as hard-bitten veterans" covers the occasions when a Battle Company or  Reserve Company all don Phobos armour and "go to war as Vanguard".

 

And the place that they learn those skills, is in the 10 Vanguard Squads attached  to the 10th Company. A regular marine will go straight to the Reserve Companies as soon as they've recovered from implantation of Black Carapace. A Primaris has to learn the Vanguard skills first - and they will usually do some fighting as Vanguard Squads too, before they leave the 10th company.

 

This is not true - minidex says:

"...In accordance with those recent amendments to the Codex Astartes, the 10th Company of each Chapter should maintain a permanent complement of one hundred Vanguard Space Marines under the command of a Captain - known as Master of Reconnaissance - and supported by two Lieutenants. This standing force consists of hard-bitten veterans who have displayed a particular aptitude for forward recon warfare over the course of of countless operations."

 

So the difference between Vanguard minidex and 2nd ed C:SM is not "more info". It's different info. Not that it bothers GW too much :P

While the minidex says they are picked veterans, the C:SM would imply that those additional Astartes are not fully-fledged and are an extension of the training program.  

 

'Ultramarines' supplement is not conclusive, calling Vanguard marines: "reconnaissance and assassination elite". 

 

C:SM says also that: "The Codex is less prescriptive regarding the disposition, size and usage of the Scouts Company than it is about the other elements of the Chapter. The core of this Company consists of ten squads of Vanguard Space Marines, but it's total strength can include any number of additional neophytes still training to ascend to the rank of a full-fledged battle-brother".

This would indeed imply that the future is turning the 10th Company into a Primaris company.

As a side note, C:SM also lists only one Captain for the 10th, having dual titles of Master of Recruits and Master of Reconnaissance. 

[Panzer]

It doesn't even contradict eachother. Neophytes could get trained as Reivers, Phobos, whatever in the 10th company before moving on to another company while at the same time there being a full Vanguard company of fully trained permanent members within the 10th.
 
 

It is possible (however again - pure speculation), that Blood Angels no longer create standard marines after the Devastation of Baal due to destruction of most of the Sarcophagi by a genestealer attack. Nothing about this is hinted in our current Codex though.

Almost. At the end of Devastation of Baal it got said that the Blood Angels keep producing regular Marines alongside the new Primaris to fill their numbers more quickly so they are battleready as soon as possible again. I think it also got mentioned in our PA Supplement since that is basically just a minor extension of Devastation of Baal, but I'd need to check that to be sure.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Panzer

[Iron Lord]

IMO  the "extension of the training program" idea does a good job of explaining why every Primaris Marine in the Battle Companies is capable of going to war as Vanguard - because they already have experience doing just that, in the 10th Company.

 

page 19, Space Marines Codex 2e:

 

"Every newly recruited and created Primaris Marine spends time in the 10th Company learning the full range of Vanguard combat techniques, from the mobile fire support duties of the Suppressors and the expert sniper-combat of the Eliminators, to the terror raids of the Reivers and the point-blank gunfighting of the Incursors. The Primaris battle-brothers keep their Vanguard skills honed even after they move on to other companies, meaning that at a moment's notice, they can don any of the various types of Mk X Phobos armour and go to battle as Vanguard Space Marines. Even Veterans of the 1st Company can swiftly reprise such duties, combining the benefits of their vast wealth of combat experience with the specialised and wholly lethal infiltration-and-sabotage tools of the Vanguard."

 

page  33: Blood of Baal - Blood Angels Vanguard

 

"Primaris Marines of the 10th Company fight as Vanguard squads. Each specialises in aspects of reconnaissance, infiltration and the elimination of threats - from the disruption sown by Infiltrators and Reivers, to the aggression of the Incursors, and the clinical devastation wrought by units of Suppressors and Eliminators. Wearing a sub-pattern of Mk X Phobos armour, every warrior is trained for each role in turn. Primaris Space Marines keep these skills honed after progressing to other companies, and are able to don Phobos armour and reprise such duties when required."

 

 

Don't mean to offend you, but this is all pure speculation based on the Ultramarines. As I said earlier, Blood Angels handle their standard organ implantations differently than what's described in the Codex:Space Marines and so they normally train almost fully matured (in terms of physical changes) scouts.
For the above to be true, they would need to revise their whole procedure for creating new battle-brothers and training system.

It isn't just Pollandus's career in the Ultramarines I'm talking about - it's the Codex Space Marines 8e 2e description of the 10th Company in general, which is far more widely applicable.

 

 

And Blood Angels Scouts are still missing one organ - the Black Carapace.

 

All that's needed to make the above compatible with the way Blood Angels do things, is to emphasise that a Neophyte with no Black Carapace is still just a Scout, no matter how many of their other organs are mature.

 

 

 

minidex says:

"...This standing force consists of hard-bitten veterans who have displayed a particular aptitude for forward recon warfare over the course of of countless operations."

 

So the difference between Vanguard minidex and 2nd ed C:SM is not "more info". It's different info.

 

 

 

While I'd agree that all works published prior to Codex Space Marines 2e, and some after, tend to emphasise how "elite" and "veteran" the Vanguard are, it's worth noting that, considering how much Scouts are tested in battle before getting their Black Carapace, compared to the average Guardsman, a case can be made that a Scout who has gotten their Black Carapace is an elite veteran.

 

 

The Iron Hands supplement states that after elevation to full battle brother, the former Scout will remain with the 10th, serving as a sergeant within the Scout Squads and guiding fresh cohorts through the trials, or joining the company's Vanguard Squads. 

 

 

So, that's another good example of "after finishing Scout training, you can join the 10th Company's Vanguard squads" - rather than requiring Vanguard Squads to be drawn from people who are much more veteran than a newly elevated ex-Scout would be.

 

 

The 2e Marines codex is pretty unambiguous that no Primaris Marine leaves the 10th company without first having learned every "Vanguard technique". It makes sense that there's an element of "learning by doing" - joining  squads and fighting alongside them in battle.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Iron Lord

[Spyros]

I saw the 3rd edition photo with red helmets, so I have to reinforce my initial statement "Fast attack with yellow helmets. It has always been thus.", so...

Here's 2nd edition:

[Jolemai]

:wub:

[Iron Lord]

Reivers don't need yellow helmets if  they're  part of the 10th company, or the 1st Company.

 

1st Company Reivers could have gold helmets instead, and 10th Company Reivers (the "standing Vanguard force") are Vanguard rather than Close Support specifically - so wouldn't follow the colour-coded helmet system.

 

Now that the 9e Codex is out - something I've noticed - Incursors with yellow helmets - as Close Support.

 

Given that the one Incursor from the 10th Company illustrated in Blood of Baal, with the quote, has a red helmet -

 

that supports my conjecture that the 10th Company always have Red helmets even though some of them might be Close Support and others might be Fire Support - because the 10th Company don't follow the Close Support Yellow, Fire Support Blue, system, but stick to red helmets throughout.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Iron Lord

[Cleon]

I must admit, I don't like Marines in Power Armour with Boltguns as Yellow helmets. They may 'advance' troops. but they are not 'close support' and also we don't have enough squads per battle company for all these supposed Close Support types. I'm going to stick with the red helmets I used based on the original Vanguard picture.

[Majkhel]

I have one squad of red helmets and will have one squad of yellow helmets (Incursors). I want to find out if I can make the yellow helmets work ;)

[Iron Lord]

I must admit, I don't like Marines in Power Armour with Boltguns as Yellow helmets. They may 'advance' troops. but they are not 'close support' and also we don't have enough squads per battle company for all these supposed Close Support types. 

 

 

Blood Angels aren't the only chapter for which Incursors are portrayed as more "assaulty" than "battleline" though - Space Wolves treat them that way too - giving them the "claw" markings similar to Wolf Claws, rather than the "hunter" markings similar to Grey Hunters. It's their knives, which are AP -1 rather than AP 0, that does it.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Iron Lord

[Blindhamster]

yellow helmet incursors also look GREAT tbh.

[appiah4]

I may be old fashioned but incursors feel closer to me to scouts than to any close support unit of yore, giving them yellow helmets rubs me the wrong way..

[Iron Lord]

I may be old fashioned but incursors feel closer to me to scouts than to any close support unit of yore, giving them yellow helmets rubs me the wrong way..

The good news is you don't have to - only Battle Company Incursors (basically, a Close Support squad that has chosen to use Incursor gear for the duration of the mission) are supposed to wear the yellow.

 

If your squad comes from the 10th company, having been attached in the same way that scouts are, they should have the red.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Iron Lord

[VanDutch]

I have one squad of red helmets and will have one squad of yellow helmets (Incursors). I want to find out if I can make the yellow helmets work ;)

Same here. The yellow helmets are a second company squad who are using the armour for a specific mission. The red helmets are 10th company.

[Spyros]

I disagree.

In the past the 10th company had only scouts, and the models were always helmetless so we wouldn't know the right color.

Despite that fact I checked the official Ultramarines models, scouts indeed don't appear to have role designation on the right shoulder.

 

However, Vanguard marines are not scouts but fully fledged Astartes.

So I believe that 10th company Phobos-armored Astartes should have battlefield role designation.

[Iron Lord]

Primaris marines learn all the Vanguard roles before leaving the 10th company. And the Vanguard company marines are never broken down into battlefield role on charts.

 

Page 16 Codex Space Marines:

 

Battle Companies - Battleline Squads, Close Support Squads, Fire Support Squads

Reserve Companies - 6th-7th: Battleline, 8th: Close Support, 9th - Fire Support

Scout Company - 10th - Vanguard Squads

 

Vanguard Squads aren't even all Phobos - the Suppressor lacks the Phobos keyword - the Omnis pattern armour is a hybrid of Phobos and Gravis.

 

 

When a Battle Company or Reserve Company chooses to deploy some of its troopers with Vanguard gear - then it might make sense to denote their role with helmet colours. But not otherwise.

 

The sample Vanguard Marine in the Shadowspear Focus article:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/05/mar-5-shadowspear-focus-vanguard-unitsgw-homepage-post-4/

 

is not from the 10th Company, but from the 3rd:

 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Iron Lord

[Majkhel]

Primaris marines learn all the Vanguard roles before leaving the 10th company. And the Vanguard company marines are never broken down into battlefield role on charts.

 

Sorry, but this part looks like a speculation. Original Vanguard Codex named Vanguard marines 'hard-bitten veterans' with special aptitude towards covert ops. This suggests they are specifically chosen not assigned as a standard path. There is no indication that Primaris first train as Vanguard in the 10th and then join Battle/Reserve Companies. 

[Iron Lord]

There is no indication that Primaris first train as Vanguard in the 10th and then join Battle/Reserve Companies. 

 

Yes, there is. Blood of Baal page 33: Blood Angels Vanguard

 

Wearing a sub-pattern of Mk X Phobos armour, every warrior is trained for each role in turn. Primaris Space Marines keep these skills honed after progressing on to other companies, and are able to don Phobos armour and reprise such duties when required.

 

Or,, from Ritual of the Damned (page 33)

 

Every Primaris Space Marine in a Chapter is trained to fight as a Vanguard warrior, and the 10th Company permanently maintains ten full Vanguard Squads.

 

Gaius Pollandus's portrayal in the 8e Codex - as a Scout who goes on to be a Vanguard marine (first a Reiver and then an Inflitrator) follows the theme of "Scouts become Vanguard then, when they're done being Vanguard, they join the Reserve Companies in order".

 

The "Original Vanguard Codex" focuses on Marines of the Battle Companies who are reprising their Vanguard training. It's pretty obvious. The Ultramarine's Shoulder Trim is gold - 2nd Company. The Dark Angel's kneepad is quartered - 5th Company. And the Blood Angel has the white drop symbol of the 3rd Company.

 

 

For "Every Primaris Space Marine is trained to fight as a Vanguard" to be true - even of the guys who have only just joined the 9th company (or 8th in the case of the Blood Angels) - it follows that they have received all their training before leaving the 10th company.

 

 

 

Going back to the subject of land speeder pilot helmet colours - IMO, everyone in the 7th and 6th companies, being Battleline, will have Battleline colours, regardless of what equipment they have assigned to them. The 7th company can have speeders and still have red helmets.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Iron Lord

[Majkhel]

Ah, good catch with the BoB!

I have initially dismissed the Gaius Pollandus' tale as he was an Ultramarine - we were not part of the C:SM at that time and Vanguard lore was still barely covered for us.