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Hypothetical Horus Heresy Series


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#201
malika666

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If I were to redo the Horus Heresy series, I'd change the involvement of Chaos in all this. The background seems to hint that various Primarchs had their own reasons to rebel that didn't need Chaos. Be it frustration with politics (regulars humans ruling the empire that was forged with Primarch/Astartes blood), the Emperor being seen as yet another tyrant (Angron and Mortarion fall under this category, and the Khan to a lesser extent as well), the hypocrisy of it all (Curze and Magnus). We could have Horus rebel against the Emperor alongside his brothers, with Chaos seeping in only after the rebellion starts. Chaos enters the fray as a weapon for the Traitors to use against the loyalists (the Traitors need to replenish their losses from Istvaan III and V), but eventually it consumes the Traitors (which makes Horus' final moment of redemption a bit more tragic).


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#202
bluntblade

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Tbh I think it works if the Word Bearers are shown to be a bit more proactive as per The First Heretic.

Also, that replenishment should've come up earlier, with the Traitors fielding Chymerae Blackshields and Newborn. You've have whole, battle-hardened cadres who've only known war against their own kind by the time of Beta Garmon, and I wish we'd seen that.

Edited by bluntblade, 15 May 2020 - 10:05 AM.

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#203
bluntblade

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The Word Bearers, I think, deserved more exploration circa Molech or perhaps immediately after. Firstly because I think they need to be more active in corrupting Legions and warbands, and secondly because this should be the time in which the new generation of leaders take the reins under Lorgar.

Particularly with regard to the Vakra Jal, the Unspeaking etc.

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#204
bluntblade

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If I were to redo the Horus Heresy series, I'd change the involvement of Chaos in all this. The background seems to hint that various Primarchs had their own reasons to rebel that didn't need Chaos. Be it frustration with politics (regulars humans ruling the empire that was forged with Primarch/Astartes blood), the Emperor being seen as yet another tyrant (Angron and Mortarion fall under this category, and the Khan to a lesser extent as well), the hypocrisy of it all (Curze and Magnus). We could have Horus rebel against the Emperor alongside his brothers, with Chaos seeping in only after the rebellion starts. Chaos enters the fray as a weapon for the Traitors to use against the loyalists (the Traitors need to replenish their losses from Istvaan III and V), but eventually it consumes the Traitors (which makes Horus' final moment of redemption a bit more tragic).

I think the best way to use this is emphasising the Word Bearers' work in laying the ground for outright corruption, with them and Horus having exploited the existing divisions.

 

I think that could be an interesting through-line for a Word Bearers book, with the likes of Erebus preying on, say, Night Lords scattered and directionless after Thramas. You could even use that to highlight the factionalism and maybe the jockeying for power among older Word Bearers, compared to the hungry zeal of the newer adherents such as Layak. This might lay the ground for a divide which will ultimately leave Lorgar bereft of his Legion at Ullanor.

 

Further thoughts; I'm tempted to have the First Obliterator be the Dreadnought guy on Tallarn. The IW will get Obliterators anyway, so it feels to me like a more sensible progression for them to take it in the name of increasing their own power. Plus you get a metaphor for how Perturabo dehumanises his own sons and they internalise that demand from him.


Edited by bluntblade, 16 May 2020 - 07:10 AM.

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#205
Roomsky

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So a lot of these suggestions obviously benefit from hindsight, but what I think what most people are doing better than BL with or without hindsight is more page time for the Sons of Horus. Their presence was a bit on the light side until Vengeful Spirit, and after that they basically disappeared. You'd think they would have been given another trilogy, and if not the traitors themselves then at least proper entries for Loken and Qruze. I'll admit I dislike multi-media projects, but if you're going to bring the first protagonist the readers are familiar with, do it in a proper novel.

 

It's another reason why the Meduson stuff is great, Marr is the sort of antagonist we should have seen in more works.


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#206
bluntblade

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I guess the Knights Errant thing would need to be its own novel.

I go back and forth on what I'd have done with Marr. I'd probably have served him up to Meduson in the end, because I'd want Meduson's own downfall to be entirely at the hands of the Iron Council at the close of the war (and don't like the notion of the IH deciding to sit out the Heresy after that point, it just feels wrong to me).


Edited by bluntblade, 16 May 2020 - 08:07 PM.

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#207
Bobss

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I would can the Knights Errant in general. I don't have a problem with exploring notable Loyalist figures in Traitor Legions (Garro's story arc in old, old lore is gold), but please keep the Grey Knights' founding a separate thing. The Grey Knights are the absolute cutting-edge of the Imperium having to live with the very real threat of Chaos. They don't just happen to be excellent at fighting Chaos like the Adeptus Custodes or the Adepta Sororitas are - they are literally the Emperor giving His last middle finger to the Ruinous Powers. They were born into a less-than-ideal world; they are the Emperor's last throw of the dice. Chris Wraight sums these themes up best in The Emperor's Legion. So like, all of this being formed by a few guys who had a really wild road trip has never sat well with me. It's pretty contrived and I don't want contrived in my super-serious Space Roman Civil Wars


Edited by Bobss, 16 May 2020 - 10:01 PM.

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#208
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I would keep Janus' origin story, all the same.


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#209
DukeLeto69

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I have always hated the Knights Errant story. The concept ok but execution no.

How is it they are able to whizz around the galaxy with impunity? No impact of Ruinstorm. Know exactly where Horus et al happen to be? How did they get to Calth? How do they know to go to Molech?

Don’t you need huge star ships to travel through the warp? It all felt too much like Star Wars and hyperdrive!

Surely it was more interesting to have loyalists in the dark about where traitors are and would strike next? Also who is traitor and who loyal? If Knights Errant can whizz around then they can spy and discover answers to those questions!

Nah the Knights Errant idea as executed doesn’t work for me and should be culled or dramatically rethought in any ideal HH series.

#210
b1soul

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This is a minor aspect...but if you're gonna do SW "Watch Packs", I think they should be set up and utilised properly.

In Fear to Tread, it read like they were sent to execute Sanguinius should he turn Traitor, and whoever sent them thought their chance of success would not be ridiculously low. Also, sending them is going to breed resentment. Needs to be some intelligent thinking behind how they're employed.
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#211
bluntblade

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Which was why I liked the ones in UE, and the Howl of the Hearthworld chaps who knew they were solely there as a political statement. And that Russ thought the idea was a bit daft.

I have always hated the Knights Errant story. The concept ok but execution no.

How is it they are able to whizz around the galaxy with impunity? No impact of Ruinstorm. Know exactly where Horus et al happen to be? How did they get to Calth? How do they know to go to Molech?

Don’t you need huge star ships to travel through the warp? It all felt too much like Star Wars and hyperdrive!

Surely it was more interesting to have loyalists in the dark about where traitors are and would strike next? Also who is traitor and who loyal? If Knights Errant can whizz around then they can spy and discover answers to those questions!

Nah the Knights Errant idea as executed doesn’t work for me and should be culled or dramatically rethought in any ideal HH series.

I reckon the solution there would be to make Garro's recruitment mission take years, turning into a genuine odyssey, and probably skip Calth. Most definitely have them absent from Molech because the spotlight needs to be on the Traitors at that point.

Edited by bluntblade, 17 May 2020 - 08:35 AM.

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#212
Beren

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Wolfsbane also has a very small warp-capable vessel as an Archmagoa's personal evacuation craft.


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#213
bluntblade

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I'm ok with a small vessel being able to do that stuff - so long as it's an actually vessel and not a craft (I'd put Stormbirds at the extreme end of being craft rather than ships). It's more the ease of journeying and such.


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#214
DarkChaplain

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Wolfsbane, as followed up by The Great Work, is a good example of things taking time, actually. The impression I got from the timeline back and forth was that by the time they reached Terra, the Siege was already over.


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#215
Beren

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That may well have been becuase they were imprisoned on a Forgeworld on suspicion of treachery until after the war was over, from what I can recall.



#216
DukeLeto69

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@bluntblade yep totally agree Garro and recruitment of “Knights Errant / Grey Knights” should have been an obyssey. Actually more akin to Kyme’s Deathfire and trying to break through the Ruinstorm.

My head cannon version of HH/W40k requires only massive ships being warp capable (I groaned in Wolfsbane). I like the idea that the engines needed and Geller field generators are so large that minimum size would be a Cobra Destroyer sized vessel.

This is not Star Wars with X Wings having hyperdrive!

@DC yep same impression re took time arrived late. Just read The Great Work having only read Wolfsbane earlier this year so fresh in my old mind. Enjoyed TGW though it dragged a little in the middle.

Another area that authors in BL (both HH & 40k) don’t tackle enough is warp dilation time shenanigans! Would be hard from a plot pov but imagine trying to coordinate the defence of Terra and have your ships arriving in different time zones! Imagine traitors aided by Chais Gods getting a safe route through Ruinstorm (great plot device btw, loved that) and arriving together as a fleet but loyalists being literally all across space and time!

Tied to that is another reason the Garro / Knights Errant don’t work for me. Always get wherever they want WHEN they want.

#217
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@bluntblade yep totally agree Garro and recruitment of “Knights Errant / Grey Knights” should have been an obyssey. Actually more akin to Kyme’s Deathfire and trying to break through the Ruinstorm.

My head cannon version of HH/W40k requires only massive ships being warp capable (I groaned in Wolfsbane). I like the idea that the engines needed and Geller field generators are so large that minimum size would be a Cobra Destroyer sized vessel.

This is not Star Wars with X Wings having hyperdrive!

@DC yep same impression re took time arrived late. Just read The Great Work having only read Wolfsbane earlier this year so fresh in my old mind. Enjoyed TGW though it dragged a little in the middle.

Another area that authors in BL (both HH & 40k) don’t tackle enough is warp dilation time shenanigans! Would be hard from a plot pov but imagine trying to coordinate the defence of Terra and have your ships arriving in different time zones! Imagine traitors aided by Chais Gods getting a safe route through Ruinstorm (great plot device btw, loved that) and arriving together as a fleet but loyalists being literally all across space and time!

Tied to that is another reason the Garro / Knights Errant don’t work for me. Always get wherever they want WHEN they want.

 

If they're going to have tiny ships be warp-capable, I hope they at least get played up as a technology the Mechanicus is hoarding and intentionally obfuscating from their allies. I'm down for instances of higher tech so long as factionalism keeps over-sized things and slaves in use most of the time.

 

Garros' ability to teleport across the galaxy is the #1 reason I can't get into his shorts. For all I bash Thorpe, he at least portrays warp travel as appropriately lengthy and unreliable. It's odd coming from Swallow too, as 3 of his 4 Heresy novels deal with warp travel's inconvenience in some way. 


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#218
Xisor

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I don't really think Molech is an asset to the series.

The idea of the Emperor having been at all this for quite a while, and maybe having been quite duplicitous and deceptive in his ways? Sure.

Magic Levelling Up Door? No.

(Unless the levelling up door is literally a multi-book epic fantasy side-quest through the Realm of Chaos, a la the Archaon Duology's plot.)
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#219
bluntblade

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I really want to know how Bligh would've done it. I do appreciate it as a threshold moment, but I don't like how McNeil went about the execution.

 

I think one think Molech definitely has going for it is that it, at least theoretically, provides a fulcrum of sorts like Beta-Garmon and the Isstvans.


Edited by bluntblade, 30 May 2020 - 08:37 PM.

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#220
Rob P

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I don't really think Molech is an asset to the series.

The idea of the Emperor having been at all this for quite a while, and maybe having been quite duplicitous and deceptive in his ways? Sure.

Magic Levelling Up Door? No.

(Unless the levelling up door is literally a multi-book epic fantasy side-quest through the Realm of Chaos, a la the Archaon Duology's plot.)

Maybe i'm just looking to find a get out, but I head-canoned 'the emperor levelled up at Molech' as a chaos lie


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#221
b1soul

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The Emperor at Molech would be a great excuse for a DAoT novel, focusing mainly on a handful of the Emperor's followers (and maybe even the Emperor Himself) at the time, rather than the wider setting.




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