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Cost effective ranged anti armour


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19 replies to this topic

#1
farfromsam

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So, I have been having great fun using a list that has lots of anti infantry and then running both kinds of knights for effective anti vehicle. But, the black knights suffer from being points and CP expensive.
Also, they need to be baby sat for rerolling those overheating 1's. Plus, it's hard to hide 10 bikes.

At T5 and only two wounds, they often are the first target my opponent locks onto. Jink helps, and Darkshroud is cost prohibitive. All this is a long way of saying I'm looking for a new ranged AV source.

I'm looking for two answers here. The first is what in house options are open to us? And be more cost efficient.

The second question is what Imperium units could fill the same role? With our super doctrine near useless, souping up is an option.

For the mixing I like a battalion with Tallarn Tank commanders. One can have the relic battle cannon for flat D3 and max shots. Then order himself back into cover. This option gives more CP and obj sec units.

Anyway, lay it on me.

#2
ChaplainNemiel

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Mortis dreads with 2 twin lascannons! 

It's only 140 points....Cheaper than a Predator annihilator while giving you that long distance range to sit in your backfield (can take advantage of grim resolve) and hold objectives if needed. If you have two of them, 8 lascannon shots for 280 points is a great bargain! 

 

Another option would be a Nephilim Jet fighter or 2. Ensure to have it so you can swap either the twin las or the mega bolter!

In this case the mega bolter might be your better choice if you're lacking anti tank. 


Edited by ChaplainNemiel, 12 May 2020 - 02:03 AM.

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#3
Volt

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Deredeo Dreadnoughts are also underrated for the sheer amount of dakka they put down range while also acting as a buff unit for a blob of devastators or hellblasters to screen against melee deepstrikes and amplify the dreadnought's firepower. Just the standard autocannon version as well - unfortunately the other weapons are mediocre in the transition to 8e rules. Shame as it'd be nice to have some good plasma cannonades.


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#4
Gederas

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I'll also recommend Mortis Dreadnoughts, either the regular Boxnaughts or Contemptors, as a Contemptor-Mortis is only marginally more expensive than a regular Mortis Dread for major upgrades (BS2+ at start and Atomantic Shielding).

 

Hellblasters are also STUPIDLY good with Dark Angels. 30 inch (36 turn 1) range with AP-4? A 10-man squad in it's rapid-fire range (15/18), with some assistance from a Master/Lieutenant and Weapons from the Dark Age WILL slag whatever you point them at (20 S8 AP-4 D3 shots if Overcharged).

 

Elimninators with Las-fusils are also cheap, with what are effectively baby Lascannons, and are only 99 points

 

Deredeo Dreadnoughts are also underrated for the sheer amount of dakka they put down range while also acting as a buff unit for a blob of devastators or hellblasters to screen against melee deepstrikes and amplify the dreadnought's firepower. Just the standard autocannon version as well - unfortunately the other weapons are mediocre in the transition to 8e rules. Shame as it'd be nice to have some good plasma cannonades.

I've had a lot of success with the Plasma Carronade actually (then again, I only have one Deredeo currently, and it's the Plasma Carronade one). First game I did at my local GW after I finished painting it I had a game against a friend's Primaris marines, the Deredeo, with assistance from a Lieutenant and Azrael, in conjunction with Weapons from the Dark Age outright deleted his Repulsor Executioner first turn. Which severely neutered his list laugh.png


Edited by Gederas, 12 May 2020 - 02:34 AM.


#5
farfromsam

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This is good news as I love how dreads play. I'll give them a shot. Hell blasters I've tried I have 20 of them painted in fact. But a point more gets you a tougher, faster more versatile unit in black knights. The deredeo is interesting. 160 for the plasma and you can WotDA its 5 shots for a flat 4 dmg.
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#6
Gederas

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This is good news as I love how dreads play. I'll give them a shot. Hell blasters I've tried I have 20 of them painted in fact. But a point more gets you a tougher, faster more versatile unit in black knights. The deredeo is interesting. 160 for the plasma and you can WotDA its 5 shots for a flat 4 dmg.

Yeah. Black Knights are more versatile, but Hellblasters pack more punch and higher AP. To the point where unless something has a 2+ Save or an Invul, you're just rolling for damage if you hit :lol:

They're a completely unsubtle unit, but are terrifying, probably the scariest thing in the Primaris armoury. And Dark Angels make them scarier.

 

But yeah, the Deredeo is interesting. The real question is how it has 5 shots from 2 guns with 2 barrels each :lol:


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#7
G8Keeper

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I get decent mileage out of a plasma cannon armed devastator squad.  Really needs to be 10-man for the ablative wounds, but with overcharge, turn 1 range & AP boost, WotDA, signum and armorium cherub they do pack a punch.  You're not going to down a knight with them, let's just admit that now but in my case I've certainly brought down tank commanders and the like in one round of shooting.  The added bonus is they can take out heavy or even light infantry due to their rate of fire and all you need really is to keep them stationary to receive grim resolve.


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#8
farfromsam

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I get decent mileage out of a plasma cannon armed devastator squad.  Really needs to be 10-man for the ablative wounds, but with overcharge, turn 1 range & AP boost, WotDA, signum and armorium cherub they do pack a punch.  You're not going to down a knight with them, let's just admit that now but in my case I've certainly brought down tank commanders and the like in one round of shooting.  The added bonus is they can take out heavy or even light infantry due to their rate of fire and all you need really is to keep them stationary to receive grim resolve.

 

They are self sufficient, and that sweet armorium cherub is gold.  But to get similar numbers of shots they end up costing more, with fewer shots and a lower toughness.  (it is nice to have 20 separate wounds though).  and I guess 24 bolter shots at 24" shouldn't be over looked, and backfield deep strike peace of mind is nice.   Looks like a fun shift in play style, or take both and go whole hog.



#9
G8Keeper

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They are self sufficient, and that sweet armorium cherub is gold.  But to get similar numbers of shots they end up costing more, with fewer shots and a lower toughness.  (it is nice to have 20 separate wounds though).  and I guess 24 bolter shots at 24" shouldn't be over looked, and backfield deep strike peace of mind is nice.   Looks like a fun shift in play style, or take both and go whole hog.

 

 

Are we comparing to Hellblasters? If so, I've been known to take a 10 man squad of each, the love of plasma burns brightly in this one!


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#10
farfromsam

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Are we comparing to Hellblasters? If so, I've been known to take a 10 man squad of each, the love of plasma burns brightly in this one!

 

 

Lol, I bet we could get away with Plasma tacts, plasma vets, Black knights and vengeance, and Hellblasters and P cannon devs.  lol  would it work?  Who cares!  Once you see the glow you're dead.  But that's for another thread.


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#11
Skywrath

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Are we comparing to Hellblasters? If so, I've been known to take a 10 man squad of each, the love of plasma burns brightly in this one!

 

 

Lol, I bet we could get away with Plasma tacts, plasma vets, Black knights and vengeance, and Hellblasters and P cannon devs.  lol  would it work?  Who cares!  Once you see the glow you're dead.  But that's for another thread.

 

 

Why hellblasters when you can run plasma inceptors for more dakka >smile.png


Edited by Skywrath, 12 May 2020 - 02:18 PM.


#12
G8Keeper

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I really need some Inceptors too...

 

Has anyone done the numbers since our Psychic Awakening book as to what actually is the best anti-tank weapon/unit we have?  Big ask I know.


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#13
Skywrath

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I wouldn't know, but the LS Vengeance could be an interesting consideration. I'm not sold on that idea, but at a glance, it seems to be pretty decent with D6 plasma shots. 



#14
Hellunder

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farfromsam: I think you're onto something with that tank commander. Depending on what regiment you play a manticore with tank ace could also deal some good anti-tank fire power. Let's say you're going for catachan for example, and maxing out damage on both manticore and tank commander. Think I'm gonna try this out myself!

I would however also run black knights alongside, I think the advantage of running DA + IG would be that dark angels could provide speed, and IG can provide firepower at long range. Going for tallarn with mobile tanks and static DA gunline sounds wierd to me since the DA gunline has much worse range. And I think you're right about hellblaster not being cost effective compared to black knights, for 1 point less you're giving up a lot of speed and range. To me this is a no brainer.

I can't however agree in the criticism of black knights - with signal the attack your plasma won't overheat (and I always take a chaplain for extra +1 to hit if I'm up against -to hit armies). Their babysitters (talonmaster and sammael in sableclaw) are our best units. They are hard to hide though, but if you are playing with decent tournament standard terrain (where you should be able to even hide a knight turn one) they should be ok, they should even have an advantage in those situations thanks to their mobility.

The only benefit I can see with taking hellblasters is that they can hide in ruins and walk through walls being infantry. (Which can be pretty good if you're playing with ITC terrain rules)



#15
farfromsam

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Ah, but the dark angel gun line is a midfield bully that's not afraid of CC. Azzy + asmodai agressors and some choice troops welcome getting stuck in the ig would stay back and prevent deep strikes and provide long shots. Also, tasty tasty CP.

Had to google signal the attack. That's a really nice strat! But ups the investment in Black knights. I know Black knights are great, but they are costly in points cp and support. I'm not the best player, and don't get to read/ play enough games to properly wield the unit.

#16
Grand Master Raziel

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One thing I want to mention about Black Knights - terrain isn't their only protection. Distance is as well. Plasma talons may only have an 18" range, but they have a 14" move and automatically advance 6", for a total range of 38". Also, if you're investing in a Talonmaster for them, might as well also spend a CP for Hero of the Chapter and give that TM the Impeccable Mobility warlord trait so they can advance and fire their talons at no penalty. And on the first turn,  with our super-doctrine, the talons get an extra 3" range, so that's a total threat range of 41". That's practically all the way across the table width-wise. You can line them up on the back edge of your table side and get them in range to light something up with 1 turn of movement.


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#17
ChaplainNemiel

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One thing I want to mention about Black Knights - terrain isn't their only protection. Distance is as well. Plasma talons may only have an 18" range, but they have a 14" move and automatically advance 6", for a total range of 38". Also, if you're investing in a Talonmaster for them, might as well also spend a CP for Hero of the Chapter and give that TM the Impeccable Mobility warlord trait so they can advance and fire their talons at no penalty. And on the first turn,  with our super-doctrine, the talons get an extra 3" range, so that's a total threat range of 41". That's practically all the way across the table width-wise. You can line them up on the back edge of your table side and get them in range to light something up with 1 turn of movement.

 

Seriously...I need someone to show a live demonstration to how these RW shenanigans work.



#18
Fierce Bear

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I played a TTS game with an 8-man BK squad last week, and I actually advanced them A full 20" out of the TM/impeccable mobility bubble but used speed of the raven, WOTDA against a well hidden Alaitoc wave serpent, only it's -1 to hit penalty kept it from a one-shot death... (I didn't over charge).

I think you *have* to be aggressive with your RW and there firepower now, an the TM cover debuff was always good but now it's fantastic as you rove around melting stuff
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#19
Hellunder

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With the risk of turning this thread into "how to play black knights":
To play them properly you'll need:

1. Ravenwing attack squadron - 1 Cp  ("vigilus defiant". Which unlocks the "signal the attack" strat (1CP), when one ravenwing unit in your detachment wounds an enemy unit in shooting, the other ravenwing units in the same detachment get +1 to hit vs that unit. +1 to hit = safe plasma if no other to hit modifiers are in effect)

2. At least one big unit (I'm running 8) of black knights.

3. Talonmaster with "impeccable mobility" (psychic awakening "ritual of the damned" - your BK's can advance and shoot without the -1 to hit penalty, also allows your heavy weapons ravenwing units move and shoot without penalty) saves you CPs not having to use "speed of the raven"

4. Extra 3" range turn 1 (psychic awakening) - and extra AP for your talonmaster.

Optional (I personally don't see why you don't want to take these):

5. Sammael in sableclaw (good shooting, decent melee, and gives full re-rolls on overwatch)

6. Corvus occulus (relic from psychic awakening - gives your talonmaster +1 bs and +6" range)

7. Interrogator chaplain w/ jump pack - can give your BK's an extra +1 to hit when up against -to hit armies, can also take deathwing warlord trait that autodenies one psychic power, if your up against smite armies you can take 5+++ aura vs. mortal wounds instead.


Fierce bear:  - agressiveness is key msn-wink.gif  I always scare the :cuss out of my opponent turn 1 when I delete their most important unit, problem for me is durability, I think I have to invest in one more squad of BK's to use as backup turn 2.


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#20
Fierce Bear

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Fierce bear: - agressiveness is key msn-wink.gif I always scare the :cuss out of my opponent turn 1 when I delete their most important unit, problem for me is durability, I think I have to invest in one more squad of BK's to use as backup turn 2.


It's taken me a little while to adjust from the ultra defensive Azreal Castle, to the 16" per turn uber-mobile Talonmaster Castle!

But having tried it, ha! It's a 'Ravenwing-warhammer' you throw it out, smash everything you can and if it comes back in one piece you throw it again!

3x typhoon speeders give you great utility as well by the way... 6d6 frag shots with a -1 AP 51"+ 20" in all the bubbles turn 1 decimate screens, and you get the alternative of 6 Krak shots..




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