New edition and new units. How will they affect Ultras?

[emperorpants]

I think they might rework the detachments in 9th. A Battalion should have a LoW slot. Might give Guilliman a small boost.

He needs to be a HQ, especially as the new Ghaz is a HQ.

I agree that he should be a HQ. That probably won't happen though. I'm hoping that battalions will have a LOW slot, which will help Guilliman a bit, and is the most likely scenario that isn't a nerf. Its also possible that he will get a points drop, as Ultras werent exactly tearing up the meta. We shall see.

[emperorpants]

With the sword guard, what kind of special rules do you guys think they will have? Perhaps a re-rollable charge? A negative 1 to being hit like the custodes galatus? Maybe a plus 1 to strength on the charge?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They are called SWOLE Guard.

[Ishagu]

I really can't predict the rules of the new cc units. I can guess at their stats, and I don't doubt they'll be durable at the very least.

 

If GW is focusing so much on cc units I imagine the next edition will be more friendly to close combat.

[Captain Idaho]

Those are my hopes actually.

[Toxichobbit]

It'd also be nice if Guilliman could use stairs or doorways.

 

Would you rather them completely take away the chapter tactic? It doesn’t really fit the “tactical follow the book” theme anyway.
I feel bad for raven guard though. There’s does nothing for their tanks.

Yes please. It's always been lacklustre, despite what some people say. And you're spot on that it doesn't fit the theme of Ultramarines. Ultras really shouldn't focus on just one doctrine. There should be a payoff on matter which doctrine you're using, so that you can play Ultras long range, mid range, short range (melee) or ideally, a combination of all three. A true combined arms force taking advantage of every part of Astartes warfare.

 

The flip side is that those pay offs should be significantly less powerful individually than other Chapters abilities and only equal to other Chapters when used as a whole. The idea isn't to make Ultras more powerful than other Chapters or the best, we had enough of that a decade ago.

[Ishagu]

Guilliman and similar sized monsters in general need to be able to smash through walls and ruins.

[Toxichobbit]

Guilliman and similar sized monsters in general need to be able to smash through walls and ruins.

Literally my thought when I was typing it. The artwork in the original Cityfight book of Astartes doing interior redesign is what I always think of. It makes no sense that Guilliman (and to be fair, other monsters) can't do that.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ve always found the ability to fall back and still shoot very powerful, even more so with the Chapter Master rerolls. Also it matches God of War from the previous edition when squads could automatically choose to fall back or stick in... very tacticool. 

[Cruor Vault]

With the sword guard, what kind of special rules do you guys think they will have? Perhaps a re-rollable charge? A negative 1 to being hit like the custodes galatus? Maybe a plus 1 to strength on the charge?

 

Personally I don't think their shields will be anything other than normal Storm Shields (with a slightly different name so they can price them separately from normal SS). 

 

Even if they're stat'ed out the same as Victrix Guard (though I would suspect 3A rather than 4A), their Master Crafted Swords are already a HUGE boost in damage output.

 

Company Veterans already have the bodyguard rule, so I think it's not out of the question for these guys to have something like that.  My personal hope is that they DON'T get a Heroic Intervention ability, so that Victrix Guard keep something to make them special.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Cruor Vault

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If they can intercept wounds that would be something.

[Cruor Vault]

If they can intercept wounds that would be something.

 

Company Veterans in the Space Marine codex already have this ability, so it seems likely to me that the new guys will maintain it.  Especially with Victrix Guard being CHAPTER locked.

[Paulinus]

So I don’t think we can quite call anything a nerf.

 

As to our CT being diminished by the new tank rule I say wait. We still don’t have specifics. It is likely that tanks in melee can still shoot but it might be only at the unit that it’s in melee with. We just don’t know yet.

 

Assault Intercessors will be a welcome addition for us.

 

Blade Guard. No idea but I like others suspect something similar to company vets, maybe, hopefully a deep strike option.

 

The Judicar. Maybe he’s the primaris version of a company champion?

 

Bikes. Enough said.

 

Overall more tools. More tactical flexibility.

[Ishagu]

So if tanks can shoot in close combat, are we going to use Repulsors as melee units?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Haha that would be great.

[Toxichobbit]

So I don’t think we can quite call anything a nerf.

 

As to our CT being diminished by the new tank rule I say wait. We still don’t have specifics. It is likely that tanks in melee can still shoot but it might be only at the unit that it’s in melee with. We just don’t know yet.

 

You're right, there's always the caveat that we don't know everything in these discussions. But if we're going to wait and not speculate that our Chapter tactic is diminished because we don't know everything, then this entire thread is of equally dubious worth. Everything in here is based, in part, on speculation and "wait and see", so it's a given that we might have the wrong idea about how things will work. And in that respect, positive or negative opinion doesn't matter. It's all equally valid, or not valid, depending on which way you see it.

 

We know from playtester leaks (assuming that they're accurate of course) that you can't shoot out of combat, but you can declare a target out of combat and if the unit the tank is in combat with is destroyed the tank can fire those out of combat shots.

 

Obviously if your tank gets swarmed by a huge unit, that's not happening. But if your tank gets swarmed by a huge unit our Chapter tactic might well not happen either because you need room to actually move in order to use it.

 

On the other hand, if the dregs of a unit get in combat with a tank then wiping them out with shooting and having some left over to fire at other stuff is still possible. Whether that's better than just backing out of combat and firing everything at something else with -1 to hit depends on the situation.

 

And of course, there will be situations where a tank gets tagged but not trapped (one or two members of a unit tagging a tank while the rest is engaged elsewhere), which is where our Chapter Tactic is good.

 

That's just three very basic scenarios. As always with a game like this, there's many variants that can happen because it's impossible to completely simulate the tabletop with theory. What it does show is that our Chapter Tactic will have less situations it will be useful in, because sometimes just wiping out the unit and shooting without incuring the penalty will be better. There are more options with a tank in combat now, which is good, whatever way you look at it. What is less good though is that those options make our Chapter Tactic more situational, and it was already situational to begin with (eg how often do you get use out of it against T'au or Guard?). How situational it'll be is impossible to say, other than (probably) more situational than it is now.

 

For those of us, like me, who are already disapponted that Ultramarines have a situational Chapter Tactic, this is just further reason to want it changed. Ultramarines are among the most, if not the most flexible and adaptable of Astartes Chapters. They can turn their hand to anything, while not being the best at any one thing. For a Chapter who's background is founded on that concept, having a Chapter Tactic that is the exact opposite of flexible and adaptable, a Chapter Tactic that only has an effect in certain situations, makes no sense. It is at least situationally flexible, in that it's more options when the right situation comes up.

[Ishagu]

I feel the Ultras need a third trait to be added to their CT.

 

Iron Hands have:

-6+++

-Double the wounds for purpose of using damage profile

-Over-watch on a 5+ (This one is amazing and underrated)

 

I'm actually happy with Ultras being able to leave combat and shoot, it's nice to suffer less penalty to being assaulted. The leadership boost is also quite nice, it has saved models for me in various games as I prefer to run 10 man squads of Intercessors.

 

What could that third trait be? I'm not quite sure. We could look at the type of rules Ultras have been granted in 30k? They could gain re-rolls to Advances (but not charges), or re-rolls to overwatch, or striking 1st when they have been assaulted? That kind of thing

[Toxichobbit]

Something that works in melee, though I'm not sure exactly what.

 

+1 Ld is a minor buff, but useful in any phase where you take casualties.

 

Shooting after falling back is a ranged buff, designed to allow Ultras to avoid melee combat.

 

If they added a third element to the Chapter Tactics, something that encourages melee would be nice. It would give Ultras a minor/situational buff in both ranged and melee, meaning they are encouraged to partake in both aspects of the game rather than slanting heavily in one direction like many other Chapters/factions.

 

It would also increase their flexibility, which is imo the way Ultras should be evolving.

[Subtleknife]

What about in the assault phase they can immediately switch into the assault doctrine (they can then use the stratagem to slip back into the tactical phase once more before being forced back into the assault doctrine). That would give some propper tactical flexibility in a turn. I think playing with the doctrines should be the Ultras schtick. Edited May 26, 2020 by Subtleknife

[Ishagu]

Hmmm I will say that if all tanks across the board can shoot at units even when they have been assaulted it makes the Ultramarine doctrine far less special.

 

The rule only rarely comes into play for Infantry. Why? Enemy units only tend to assault Primaris if they can kill them or nearly cripple them. If you try to tie them up with cheap troops the Primaris will defeat them in cc with a decent number of attacks, so it doesn't happen all that much in games outside of some niche tactical play in mirror matches.

 

So unfortunately the list of reasons to play Ultras grows thinner. If the new tank rule has some significant limitations it means our ability still has some value. I feel we need a Doctrine upgrade and some rule boosts for our unique units. When PA unlocked upgrades for Chaplains and Librarians it meant other chapters could create a better Cassius or a more useful Tigurius alternative, and Guilliman remains an Ultramarine Primarch who doesn't have the Ultramarine rules in games of 2k or less.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The preview said in combat, it didn’t say fall back and shoot. I use our CT quite often. People forget or feel that the -1 to hit is better than nothing. It works better versus meleecentric armies of course.

[Ishagu]

Yes but if your tank is in combat with a trash unit and can still shoot it's actually a benefit because it means the opponent can't shoot at it.

 

Losing the shooting is what makes combat such a detriment for tanks. They don't lose it anymore. I'm juts hoping that all these new units are supported with some decent strats out of the gate.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It is something we never had just like everyone else.

 

Also I’m glad we don’t have to burn precious CP for Tigirius and Cassius, plus they are both inherently better imo... especially if run a second Libby to buff Tiggy... no one else can do that. As far as Guilliman goes no CD is not that big a loss except for the +1A and AP2 when shooting. He has always been classed as a monster for movement why are you bringing this up now ?

Edited May 26, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Ishagu]

Guilliman can't leave combat and shoot, and he can't enter ruins unless they change the rules and detachments in future.

 

I recently ran a Chaplain Dread in a few games with the Warlord trait granting extra attacks and to be honest he proved to be nearly as effective as Guilliman in terms of damage output and keeping the enemy away (6 attacks at Str14, 3 Damage flat, hitting on 2s) I also had Calgar in the list, and a Lt as a HQ in another detachment. I think this is better and cheaper way to get similar output from a list, and it granted me two extra Las cannon shots and the same number of CP.

The Dread was half the price of Guilliman, near enough.

 

I think Ultras need a boost compared to other chapters, even after two rounds of nerfs the Iron Hands are better, and Raven Guard can deal so much damage and control the board using their deployment abilities. I've been playing a bunch of games against a very strong RG player in the UK scene, and the Ultras simply don't hold up as well even when you're ready for the game with a list built for fighting other Marines. I own every Astartes kit, in multiples, and most FW units so it isn't an issue if building a list or using models I don't have.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Ishagu

[Toxichobbit]

What about in the assault phase they can immediately switch into the assault doctrine (they can then use the stratagem to slip back into the tactical phase once more before being forced back into the assault doctrine). That would give some propper tactical flexibility in a turn. I think playing with the doctrines should be the Ultras schtick.

The might be feasible, but might also be stepping on other Chapter's toes.

 

I'd need to check the FAQ, but weren't the stratagems to roll back doctrines removed? Or did Ultras get to keep theirs? I'd be worried that with no way of going back to Tactical Doctrine, any ability to switch to Assault would always be overshadowed by keeping Scions of Guilliman active for as long as possible.