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9th edition implications for the GK


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#1
Skywrath

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I found there were several things of note, which I thought were good for us, GK.

 

1. More CP points - they mentioned we will be getting more CP as a general rule, so we might not have to go for a double battalion for our Paladin Bombs. Which in turn promotes more variety in the lists. 

 

 Are unit points going to change? Yes. A new edition gives us an opportunity to reset the balance of power across the whole game. Expect to see a lot of points changes in armies. Some for balance purposes and some to reflect the increased efficacy of units that become more powerful with the changes to core rules.

 

2. Point rebalancing (quote above) - that could be good also for us, making Paladins cheaper (sarcasm) or more expensive (very likely). 

 

3. Terrain redesigned - while tight-lipped about it (or I zoned out during that time), they are making terrain more relevant again. I can already see a potential broken interaction with that, and Tides of Shadow. 

 

4. Flyers and Tanks - also redesigned to be good again! We might be seeing more Land Raiders and Stormravens in our lists! 

 

Also I wasn't sure whether we can use the new Assault Intercessors on our lists. Can anyone check on that?

 

Happy Speculating!


Edited by Skywrath, 23 May 2020 - 02:38 PM.

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#2
Seizeman

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It seems that CP will work inversely to how they work now. You'll start with an amount of CP based on the points limit of the game and you will deduct from that number to add more detachments, allies, etc.

 

I don't think thar point rebalancing will have anything to do with Gk performance until now, because there's not enough relevant information. If they change the points cost, it would be because of the application of the new rules. For example, tanks will probably be increased in points, on average, because of the new "shoot in combat" rule. If paladins get a point increase, it will be, most likely, because some rule makes them better (some change to the armour system, for example).

 

They implied that the new terrain rules will make combat armies much better, so I don't see how would be bad for  an army with a 24" effective range. It's very difficult to make terrain rules worse than they are now, so we should expect good things in that department.

 

The problem with our vehicles right now is not them being tied in combat or inconvenient flyer rules. The problem with our vehicles is that they are extremely overcosted. Razorbacks and Stormravens were nerfed to the ground because they were too prevalent in SM lists when 8th edition started. Lands raiders have been overcosted and unplayable from the start.

 

Of course we can't use assault intercessors. Those are space marines.


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#3
SnorriSnorrison

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Changes to reserves could bring GK back on the map. If it turns out that DS is possible in T1 again, that could really make up for some of the nerfs that came with the FAQ.

#4
Valerian

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Main thing that I see as helping us is the new method for Command Point generation and use pre-game.  As I understand it, we'll all get a set number of equal CP for a game that depends on the size of the game.  So, for example, we might get 20 CP for a 2,000 point battle.  Then, you'll spend some CP pre-game to "buy" detachments.  I'd guess, for example, that the 1st Battalion Detachment would be Free, whereas adding a 2nd might cost you 2 CP, but would cost 4 CP if the second Detachment were from a different Faction (penalizing you a bit for not going "pure").  

 

Although we don't know the exact details, the above fits with how they've described everything so far, so it is likely to play out similar to this.

What's good here, is that we won't be pushed to bring in 6 plain Strike Squads, just to pay the "tax" to field the double-Battalion, in order to generate the minimum CP we need to make the army run.  We'd only need to pay that tax (as well as a small CP cost) to field the 2nd Detachment, if we couldn't fit everything we need into a single Detachment.

 

If I've got this right, then it we'll have to think hard about fitting all of our Characters in, though.  A single Battalion isn't enough room for all of our needs, so we'll have to figure out the best way forward for integrating additional Detachments that will best meet our needs.  Supreme Command for the extra HQs?  Vanguard for HQs and Elites?  All of this assuming they don't make major changes to the Detachment types, of course.

 

Very interesting future ahead of us.


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#5
Captain Coolpants

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The addition of blast rules for weapons might slightly affect us too.

The heavy psycannon was blast, powers like vortex used a blast marker too, heavy plasma was also blast.

And then there's the new flyer and reserves rules. Hopefully this makes the stormraven worth it.


Also vehicles being able to shoot in combat is massive for dreadknights! Cool for dreadnoughts too. Might even be worth taking a doomglaive dread!

Edited by Captain Coolpants, 24 May 2020 - 09:37 AM.


#6
Skywrath

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Sorry, as I'm new-ish to the hobby, I'm not familiar with blast - what is it? (I presume it's an AOE effect on the ground)?

 

Looking forward to fielding land raiders in a competitive enviroment!


Edited by Skywrath, 24 May 2020 - 10:01 AM.

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#7
Valerian

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Sorry, as I'm new-ish to the hobby, I'm not familiar with blast - what is it? (I presume it's an AOE effect on the ground)?


The game used to use Templates. Teardrop shaped templates for things like Flamers and Incinerators, and different diameter circular templates for different types of Blast weapons, like a Battlecannon, for example. In 8th these templates (good riddance), were replaced by random number of auto hits (like d6 from a Flamer). This works well, but doesn’t reflect what those weapons used to do when you’d drop a “pie plate” over a mob of 30 Ork Boys.

 

Looking forward to fielding land raiders in a competitive enviroment!


This change alone doesn’t necessarily mean that our Land Raiders will suddenly be ready for a competitive environment; the vulnerability to being tagged in close combat and locked down wasn’t the only thing holding them back, I think.
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#8
Valerian

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Also vehicles being able to shoot in combat is massive for dreadknights!!


I must admit that I’m a little excited about the possibility of getting to shoot my Heavy Incinerators (and Heavy Psycannons) in close combat. That’ll solve any issues of chaff/screening units straight away. Very cinematic, in my view, too.
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#9
Seizeman

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Also vehicles being able to shoot in combat is massive for dreadknights!!


I must admit that I’m a little excited about the possibility of getting to shoot my Heavy Incinerators (and Heavy Psycannons) in close combat. That’ll solve any issues of chaff/screening units straight away. Very cinematic, in my view, too.

 

 

Specially when they are reworking former template weapons to be better against infantry. Let's hope incinerators get the buffs they deserve.


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#10
war009

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I agree with the fact flamer class weapons have been lacking since the removal of templates (which my Adepta Sororitas army relied on heavily in the older editions). And I’m excited for what changes may be brought by weapon changes, flyers returning to the table after flying off, vehicles be able to shoot out of melee, and that glimmer of hope that we get our deepstrike in to the enemy back

#11
Skywrath

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Sorry, as I'm new-ish to the hobby, I'm not familiar with blast - what is it? (I presume it's an AOE effect on the ground)?


The game used to use Templates. Teardrop shaped templates for things like Flamers and Incinerators, and different diameter circular templates for different types of Blast weapons, like a Battlecannon, for example. In 8th these templates (good riddance), were replaced by random number of auto hits (like d6 from a Flamer). This works well, but doesn’t reflect what those weapons used to do when you’d drop a “pie plate” over a mob of 30 Ork Boys.

Looking forward to fielding land raiders in a competitive environment!


This change alone doesn’t necessarily mean that our Land Raiders will suddenly be ready for a competitive environment; the vulnerability to being tagged in close combat and locked down wasn’t the only thing holding them back, I think.

 

Well, pie plate is one way to put it, the other term that springs to mind here is "humble pie" ;p Well especially with the gothic/christian theme going on with the Imperium..

 

Sorry, I meant to say tanks/flyers in a competitive environment. I said Land Raider (and it's variants), because that's the only "big" vehicle available to us, currently. What other vulnerability were you talking about? If you compare the repulsor executioner with the land raider in 9th edition rules (firing in combat), then the repulsor will blow everything out of the water that's in front of it. This also holds true even further, when you consider that we might be getting said units, down the track. Although this does bring the question of how many chambers GW has left, before they start moving to specific units for specific chapters..


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#12
Seizeman

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The vulnerability of the land raider is having only 16 wounds, no invulnerable save and mediocre firepower for the humongous cost of 300+ points.


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#13
Corvus Fortis

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I hope, that vehicles will be able to shoot with only a single weapon in close combat or have other penalties. Tying a baneblade with a grot squad is annyoing, of course, but impossibility to tie it at all would be annoying as well. 

 

I am also concerned about what GW will consider to be a "horde" unit. If it will be 10+, then forget about 10-man squads for the whole edition. 



#14
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I am also concerned about what GW will consider to be a "horde" unit. If it will be 10+, then forget about 10-man squads for the whole edition. 

 

Depends on the faction, though, and whatever other changes there are to the core rules (particularly with Command Points, and buying detachments).  Orks and Tyranids, etc., may be forced to run large squads.  



#15
Corvus Fortis

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Yes, but I was thinking more about units, which had up to 10 models in them.



#16
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I would be surprised if it effected 10 man squads (although I have been surprised many many times before so who really knows) due to how many elite level squads can be that big, I would think something like 11 or more models, or even 13 or more models would be more reasonable. 

 

They could also base it on wounds e.g. any squad of 6 or more models with a single wound is considered "Horde!".  This would be quite limiting though.

 

Whatever way they do it as long as the language leaves no ambiguity.



#17
ValourousHeart

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Main thing that I see as helping us is the new method for Command Point generation and use pre-game.  As I understand it, we'll all get a set number of equal CP for a game that depends on the size of the game.  So, for example, we might get 20 CP for a 2,000 point battle.  Then, you'll spend some CP pre-game to "buy" detachments.  I'd guess, for example, that the 1st Battalion Detachment would be Free, whereas adding a 2nd might cost you 2 CP, but would cost 4 CP if the second Detachment were from a different Faction (penalizing you a bit for not going "pure").  

 

Although we don't know the exact details, the above fits with how they've described everything so far, so it is likely to play out similar to this.

What's good here, is that we won't be pushed to bring in 6 plain Strike Squads, just to pay the "tax" to field the double-Battalion, in order to generate the minimum CP we need to make the army run.  We'd only need to pay that tax (as well as a small CP cost) to field the 2nd Detachment, if we couldn't fit everything we need into a single Detachment.

 

If I've got this right, then it we'll have to think hard about fitting all of our Characters in, though.  A single Battalion isn't enough room for all of our needs, so we'll have to figure out the best way forward for integrating additional Detachments that will best meet our needs.  Supreme Command for the extra HQs?  Vanguard for HQs and Elites?  All of this assuming they don't make major changes to the Detachment types, of course.

 

Very interesting future ahead of us.

 

I don't think we are going to see 20 CP as the base for 2k games, unless GW charges a lot for every source past the first, plus any extras within those sources.  The issue with CP in 8th had less to do with a Brigade getting +12 CP and an Imperial Knight detachment getting +6 CP, and more to do with a Vanguard detachment only getting +1.  They forced our hand to go for Battalions and Brigades just for CP generation.  And what people ended up with was bland Battalions builds of what would otherwise be a very interesting Vanguard, Outrider or Spearhead detachment builds.

 

I think 15 CP for 2000 points is about the right starting number.

 

Here is what I'm hoping we see. 

  1. If your first detachment is a Patrol, Battalion, or Brigade, it is free. 
  2. If your first detachment is a Vanguard, Outrider or Spearhead it costs 1 CP
  3. If your first detachment is Super Heavy Detachment it costs 3 CP
  4. All other detachments can only be taken as a 2nd or 3rd detachments.
    1. Super Heavy Aux, Supreme Command, and Flyer Wing cost 2 CP each.
    2. Super Heavy Detachment costs 3 CP
    3. All other detachments cost 1 CP.

Not sure if there should be an option for a 4th or 5th detachment, at least not at 2k.

 

Each codex or source book after the first codex costs 1 CP.  Refer to the specific source for aditional CP costs.  So Vigilus formation will be 1 for the book and 1 for the formation, but Ritual of the Damned will just be 1 CP.

 

So first up lets try a classic from the tournament scene - the loyal 32, 3 shield captains and 1 Castellan, that will cost the following.

 

IG codex - 0

Battalion - 0

Custodies Codex - 1

Supreme Command - 2

Imperial Knights Codex - 1

Super Heavy Aux - 2

Total CP left before extra WLT, Relics, and other shenanigans = 9 CP which is equal to what they have now.

 

Vs a Paladin Bomb which would have 15 CP with a Battalion build (8 CP previously) and 14 CP with a Vanguard build (4 CP previously) before any Relics and WLT.


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#18
Seizeman

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They specifically said that every army is going to have more CP than they have now. A lot of armies right now have 13-18 CP, so starting with 15 doesn't make much sense. I wouldn't be surprised if we started at 20 or 25 for 2000 points (a CP for every 100 pts plus maybe a fixed amount).

 

It seems that not only detachments and allies are going to cost CP. Reserving units without specific rules will probably cost CP, from what they said, and I would guess that spamming units will cost CP too.



#19
ValourousHeart

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What I heard was that they are going to move CP to scale with the size of the game, players will start with more CP, but will now have to spend CP to unlock additional books and detachments, which was only a cost in limited situations previously.
 
So it is a matter of interpretation if that means that a specific list will have more, or if in general terms games at typical sizes will have more.  I think from what we know at the moment it is more likely to be the general terms.
 
But considering it only took around 200 points to build a detachment (8 CP), I doubt that we are going to see anything close to 8 CP for a 200 point game.  Which means that if a list ends up with more CP it will be coincidental based on the list and the new system.
 
There are however two things I think we can know for certain at the moment.
 
First is that the armies which are currently at the bottom of the CP spectrum are going to see a boost with the new system.  And right now that army is a single Vanguard, Outrider or Spearhaed detachment list which currently has 4 CP.
 
And second is that if a player were to literally (not figuratively) make the hyperbolic bloat army where they use every book GW has published, the player will run out of CP quickly during list creation and not have any left over for use in game.


#20
Seizeman

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They said both things. They said that stratagems are fun and want everyone to have lots of CP, and that they are going to escale CP by point cost and you'll expend them to get stuff instead of the opposite.

 

If they want everyone to have more CP, that means 20+. Most competitive armies start with at least 13, so, if you have to pay for detachments, the starting amount can't be 15. If you start with 20 and spend, let's say 4 or 5 to purchase detachments, that would be 15-16 CP, which is a little more than most armies, but still less than the 18 some armies have right now, so it does not fit into "everyone has more CP" and "lots of CP" narrative. It seems they want stratagems to be used throughout the game and not only on turns 1 and 2, so I think most armies will end up with 20+ CP (after deducting for detachments).



#21
Skywrath

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Update: 9th is dropping (and I quote) in weeks.
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#22
Valerian

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Makes sense.  I believe they usually target June for big events like this, due to their fiscal year structure.  Believe 8e was also dropped in June.



#23
Corvus Fortis

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Things sounds good so far, but I am a bit concerned about going to reserves for CP. Will it affect units with special rules, like teleport strike, too? This can make us CP-starving again.



#24
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PM
Summary of changes from today’s Q&A

https://youtu.be/yQ0YoYTKUac

#25
Seizeman

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Things sounds good so far, but I am a bit concerned about going to reserves for CP. Will it affect units with special rules, like teleport strike, too? This can make us CP-starving again.

 

They said in the first stream that you only need CP for units that can't normally be in reserves. You don't need to pay for units that already have some rule that allows them to be in reserve. They also pretty much confirmed what I thought: first turn you can come in your deployment, turn 2 flanks, turn 3 behind the enemy. They hinted that comming from reserves will make melee much more easy, so I'd guess you don't have to deploy at a certain distance from the enemy like you do when you deep strike.

 

They clarified that not only tanks, but all vehicles can shoot in combat, and monstruous creatures too.

 

 

Today they also confirmed that falling back from combat will not be as easy, and they mentioned that there are universal stratagems that will affect that. They also said that overwatch won't be so punishing. Also, no more being inmune to charges by being above ground level. It seems that melee will be much more effective this edition.

 

I like everything I've heard so far.


Edited by Seizeman, 26 May 2020 - 09:19 PM.

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