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9th edition implications for the GK


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#276
Corvus Fortis

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Nothing particulary interesting in the FAQ. They either clarify rules for the new edition wordings, like our interceptors ignore terrain rule, or Look Out sir and engagement range, or remove bonuses which allowed units to ignore heavy. Interesting addition - most rules which were giving -1 to-hit now give +1 to save. 

 

EDIT: Big FAQ 2018 is still online, so we still have exception from psychic focus smite rules. Infinite smites were not FAQed either.


Edited by Corvus Fortis, Yesterday, 05:28 PM.


#277
Holier Than Thou

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I can’t see anything that would stop us getting-1 to hit from being in Tide of Shadows?

#278
Corvus Fortis

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I can’t see anything that would stop us getting-1 to hit from being in Tide of Shadows?

 

 

Nothing. It just won't stack with other similar abilities anymore. Alaitoc and Stygies are left with -1 to-hit abilities too.



#279
Seizeman

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The good think is we can get -1 to hit and +1 to saves just by being behind dense cover, without actually being on it, or -2 to hit (to counter a potential +1) and +1 to saves if we are actually within cover.

 

By the way, astral aim now ignores dense, light, heavy and havy cover, and, of course, obscuring.



#280
Corvus Fortis

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What realy concerns me at this point is that I am not sure if FAQ2018 could still be applied to us. It is still online, but it referes to the matched play rule, which doesn't exist anymore. And no special exceptions for us in rulebook. RAW, we are the same as other factions. And this would be the largest hit so far. 



#281
Skywrath

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With regards to Terminators, we might actually see them see play. I managed to squeeze 10 of them on top of the default 20 paladin bomb archetype. This is for 2000 points, and with the new points changes outlined in the other thread. List as follows..

 

Librarian 105 - Stave
Brother-Captain 115 - Halberd
GMNDK 180 -  Psycannon (Dreadfist or Greatsword both equal cost, doesn't matter). 
 
Terminator Squad of 5 = 175 1 Hammer, 1 Psycannon
Terminator Squad of 5 = 175 1 Hammer, 1 Psycannon
 
Paladin Squad of 10 = 475, 2 Hammers, 2 Staves, 2 Psycannons 
Paladin Squad of 10 = 475, 2 Hammers, 2 Staves, 2 Psycannons
 
Apothecary = 80 - Halberd
Apothecary = 80 - Halberd
 
30, 20, 40, 20, 20, 25 (Weapon costs on top of core units) 
 
Point cost - 1995.
 
OK, before people bring up the question of why I'm tinkering around with terminators, it's more of a proof of concept that they can be fielded. For those math-hammer heads that will claim "Oh but for the points you are paying they aren't worth it" - save it. I think we actually will be seeing terminators played instead of strikes for two reasons:
 
A. They will hold their own better against primaris marines. Not saying primaris marines are the bane of our existence, but they hold up better than 1W strikes. Not to mention, they have a 5+ invuln save (improved by warding staves).
 
B. More strategems to sustain terminators rather than strikes. 
 
Now that precursor is out of the way, thoughts?

Edited by Skywrath, Today, 12:25 PM.

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#282
Corvus Fortis

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First of all, regardless of the detachment, your list is invalid. Not enough troops for battalion, too many HQ choices for any other detachment.

 

 "Oh but for the points you are paying they aren't worth it" - save it.

 

 

But why should we? Point cost is essential at defining whether unit is good or not. Titanic units are the best example - no matter how good are the stats, their cost won't justify taking them. 

 

A. They will hold their own better against primaris marines. Not saying primaris marines are the bane of our existence, but they hold up better than 1W strikes. Not to mention, they have a 5+ invuln save (improved by warding staves).

 

 

This statement is confusing, because you do state yourself that primaris marines are not a problem and yet use it as an argument. And more important question - which primaris units? There are many different primaris units with different weapon profiles. Helblasters, for example, wouldn't care how many wounds do you have, each failed save will remove a model. And 5+ is not that good to rely on that. Strikes are better survive high damage, low shots, terminators are viсe versa. So I don't see how this could be an advantage for terminators over strikes. And staves are only good in close combat and I cannot even remember Primaris units with lots of AP-3 in close combat. Maybe, intercessor sergeants or agressors. But I just won't bother. 

 

 

B. More strategems to sustain terminators rather than strikes. 

 

 

The only unique stratagems to sustain terminators are Fury of the Proven and Redoubtable Defence. And you will be using both on your paladins, because they are more important and more efficient. 

 

In short, we won't be seeing terminators more than we did before. Point increase doesn't help here at all, because we have fewer place for paladins and paladins is what make us competitve army. 

B. More strategems to sustain terminators rather than strikes. 



#283
Valerian

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What realy concerns me at this point is that I am not sure if FAQ2018 could still be applied to us. It is still online, but it referes to the matched play rule, which doesn't exist anymore. And no special exceptions for us in rulebook. RAW, we are the same as other factions. And this would be the largest hit so far.


The only reason that FAQ is still up is that we’re technically still operating in 8th edition for another week or so.

#284
Skywrath

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In response to Corvus Fortis,
 
Well in that case that's simple - drop the 2nd apothecary, and the GMNDK, with the same loadout. Should be enough now.
 
Because, sometimes details aren't important, the idea is. I think I achieved (even with that slight modification) what I was after. A list where terminators have a spot instead of strikes, under 2000 points. 
 
How is it confusing? 2W units are better than 1W units. Having more wounds, more stratagems, an invuln save is better than having none of that. Really don't understand what's hard to grasp. Your own argument makes my point for me - imagine a scenario where hellblasters were targeting strike units - no amount of saving will help them if they were focused.
 
If they were targeting the terminators then they would have said chance with an invuln save. Seeing how at least 1 of each will be running a warding stave, than invuln is now a 4+.
 
I didn't bother filling that little detail in, because halberds/swords/staves are now no additional cost, and frankly not even worth mentioning because most of the time you would have at least 1 stave in your squad. Pretty sure you, or the other person mentioned that before. Also seeing how terminators are meant for melee combat, you would want to add a stave by your own logic.
 
Perhaps so, but as the rounds whittle down, there will be more options and more CP to be spent, especially when paladins are going to die. Having more terminators as a backup as a psuedo bomb is a better idea than having strikes who will be blown like the wind into next year if they get focused.
 
Because of the above, I think terminators will be seeing play. I included 20 paladins, and 10 terminators - why wouldn't you want to have more durable bodies to hold the ground better? 

Edited by Skywrath, Today, 01:40 PM.

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#285
Seizeman

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It's obviously you who's confused, Skywrath.

 

You get twice the number of strikes than terminators, for the same price, so why would you compare 5 terminators to 5 strikes? The correct comparison is 5 terminators to 10 strikes, so the terminators don't have more wounds, they have the same amount. In practice, the strikes have more wounds, because terminators take double damage from multidamage weapons. 

 

In the hellblaster example, specifically, strikes require 62% more shots to be killed, compared to terminators, so they are more durable. By the way, do you even know what a nemesis stave does? It only works in close combat. Also, why do you think terminators can use staves and strikes don't?

 

Of course, the strikes are spread between two squads, so that makes them even harder to kill, due to overkilling and the practical impossibility of charging both units at the same time, making them a lot better at holding objectives.

 

So, what makes terminators hold better against primaris? Is it their inferior durability or the inferior damage output?

 

Also, that list is not under 2000 points, it's 2045 points, assuming you take double dreadfist (which DOESN'T cost the same as a sword). Also, you won't have more options or CP to spend on those terminators, simply because you don't have enough troops to properly fill detachments and you will start with fewer CP to begin with.

 

So yeah, you have achieved an illegal list with less damage, durability, CP and versatility. If that was your idea, congratulations...?


Edited by Seizeman, Today, 03:45 PM.

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#286
Skywrath

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Edit: I said what needed to be said. Original text removed.

Edited by Skywrath, Today, 05:08 PM.

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