the BIG 9th edition room

[Tiger9gamer]

So turns out, Tzeentch at 1k points is really bloody hard. I also had bad luck… I also had such bad luck all around today.

 

Also had my puny jump pack marshal do 15 wounds to a lord of skulls on 11 wounds, killing it before he struck thanks to master of arms. I gotta say that guy is mean for 140 points

[Khornestar]

Thinking about Eradicators and Heavy Intercessors.

 

Might not be the absolute most efficient loadouts, but I'm thinking of arming them all with their respective assault weapon variants, i.e. melta rifles and hellstorm bolt rifles.

 

My thought is that the stratagem to allow a unit to advance and shoot assault weapons with no BS penalty can be used to add extra range/mobility options. Probably still multimeltas, too.

Anyone been using either unit? What loadouts are you using?

[noigrim]

Can Black Templars use Company Champions? I am aware they can not use the Chapter Champions, as they use the Emperor's Champion for that role, but I am asking specifically for the Company Champion models...

Priamus!

[Tokugawa]

Thinking about Eradicators and Heavy Intercessors.

 

Might not be the absolute most efficient loadouts, but I'm thinking of arming them all with their respective assault weapon variants, i.e. melta rifles and hellstorm bolt rifles.

 

My thought is that the stratagem to allow a unit to advance and shoot assault weapons with no BS penalty can be used to add extra range/mobility options. Probably still multimeltas, too.

Anyone been using either unit? What loadouts are you using?

One non-etb eradicators box give you 4 melta(or heavy melta) rifles and 1 multi-melta bits. They are fully swapable with heavy intercessor kits.

 

That is how heavy intercessors could be useful.

[Khornestar]

Well, that isn’t a particularly helpful response frater, as I’m seeking an actual answer.

 

Does the value of advance and shoot assault weapons with no BS reduction offset the benefits of the other guns?

Edited March 7, 2022 by Khornestar

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Agreed on the reply.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well, that isn’t a particularly helpful response frater, as I’m seeking an actual answer.

Does the value of advance and shoot assault weapons with no BS reduction offset the benefits of the other guns?

One game my shooty Crusader squad used it so they could target two squishy Drukhari units and wiped them both… it’s quite janky imo.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[CrystalSeer]

I would say no, as there's not enough shots to really benefit from a 15% increase on accuracy.

 

Dice will still be swingy.

 

That strat is more useful on things like aggressors or crusader blobs.

[Urkh]

Here are some questions I think you can ask yourself that might help you find your answer:

 

1) does my list's troops choices want my heavy intercessors to be able to be more mobile, rather than a home objective camper?

 

2) is my delivery system for my eradicators not good enough / am I spending points elsewhere and want to use this strat as my delivery system?

 

3) Am I planning on using this strat every turn? Occasionally? Only when needed?

 

4) If the first for number three is true, what strats should I plan on not using so I can have enough CP to use this strat? Is giving up that strat worth being able to take this strat?

 

5) how many of my opponents would changing my weapons and strat usage actually be useful against?

 

For H Ints, there's no points cost for the change from heavy to hellstorm, you lose 6" range and a point of AP for more consistent volume of shots, at no points cost. This seems better T4/5 with little armor saves (ork boyz?), and deathly against lower T squads like gaunts or gauard.

 

If you're advancing with them, I am assuming your army is having them move forward, as they're probably most of your troops. Use them to kill enemy troops, and your bgv's/erads for everything else. The advance can help move them from cover to cover (for LoS purposes, because Uphold) to protect them from enemy heavy hitters while you line up shots on said troops.

 

For the eradicators, the change seems to be -2dmg for more mobility while being functional, -1cp for more accuracy. I've personally never used eradicators, but from reading what people say about them, their mobility is the biggest issue with them. At 1(2) shot(s) each, I might still try to get them a reroll aura if possible.

 

I hope this helps. I am generally not a primaris player, but these are questions I would ask myself of any army I build, and these kinds of questions will work for many situations you might find yourself in.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s not good in general for Eradicators because then they can’t double shoot because they advanced.

[Urkh]

^^^

 

Proof I've never played with these guys, haha. I would have known that if I did.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Thinking about Eradicators and Heavy Intercessors.

 

Might not be the absolute most efficient loadouts, but I'm thinking of arming them all with their respective assault weapon variants, i.e. melta rifles and hellstorm bolt rifles.

 

My thought is that the stratagem to allow a unit to advance and shoot assault weapons with no BS penalty can be used to add extra range/mobility options. Probably still multimeltas, too.

Anyone been using either unit? What loadouts are you using?

 

The eradicators should probably stick with heavy melta rifles as the unit's power is tied to the double shoot, something they can't do after advancing any more. Using strats like Steady Advance and Devout Push to position them well will give you far more damage output for about the same average movement.

 

Heavy intercessors could go assault weapons. I'll admit that I always forget the unit exists because it was so late in releasing and the rules were...whatever. But regardless, they don't have any output loss like the eradicators.

[Khornestar]

Appreciate the answers, I think now I've got it. Expanding the collection and I'm going to be using both units. I forgot about the inability to double-shoot when advancing, so I'm less concerned about that now. The heavies will be the target for the strat, which simplifies things for me. And still, at 30" they're probably going to be in range of something regardless.

[Tiger9gamer]

So I made a new predator annihilator, and by heavens I love it. It’s the anti tank I have been longing for, and puts a serious hurt on anything it looks at. Really happy I got it painted too, it’s going to be a staple for a while

 

 

(or until I get more parts for my dreadnaught / my laser vindicator)

 

also! I managed to get into third place in my 40K ladder league with the black Templars, and managed to get a win in a victory against the second place guy tonight. Pretty happy about it!

Edited March 11, 2022 by Tiger9gamer

[9x19 Parabellum]

See I differ from Skimask on the Eradicator thing.

 

There are several things to consider if taking Heavy melta rifles.

 

1. They cost more...not a ton, but +5 points over 3-5 models adds up.

2. they suffer -1 penalty to hit because they are heavy on an infantry model.

3. While I totally agree that you should not be advancing your eradicators if/when you can help it (to get the double shots), at least with melta rifles you have the *option*, in a pinch, to advance, and still get some shooting off. 

 

For me, those 3 things do not automatically offset the +2 damage per shot.

[Medjugorje]

At start of 9th I played both types before I totally changed to the heavy variant . Especially in mid-9th edition when a lot of tourneys going onI had so many discussions about them and EVERY SINGLE good player swear on the heavy variant. EACH single one.

 

-1 to hit you will often face because of other abilities, shoot on flyers, dense cover etc... For that case you need the chapter master rerolls.

5 points for 2 dmg is extremly good. Think about you can have normal marines for 23 points with dmg3 chainsword (even with -1 to hit)

the option to shoot but with lesser shots is often a trap and you will loose your strong unit. Especially on marines there are not that many options for anti-tank.

[SkimaskMohawk]

See I differ from Skimask on the Eradicator thing.

 

There are several things to consider if taking Heavy melta rifles.

 

1. They cost more...not a ton, but +5 points over 3-5 models adds up.

2. they suffer -1 penalty to hit because they are heavy on an infantry model.

3. While I totally agree that you should not be advancing your eradicators if/when you can help it (to get the double shots), at least with melta rifles you have the *option*, in a pinch, to advance, and still get some shooting off.

 

For me, those 3 things do not automatically offset the +2 damage per shot.

Medjugorje mentioned some of the points already but I'll explain why I disagree.

 

1. You pay 5 points for 2 more damage at range; 15 points for 6. Or really 12, because of the double shot. For 15 points.

 

2. I definitely mentioned there's a strat to use to offset the -1; Steady advance. It can be pricey, but if you can't give chapter master rerolls then it can come in clutch (or both). There's of course situations like dense and innate modifiers to hit that mean the heavy versions of effectively no penalty.

 

3. The original question was about how viable normal rifles and the advanced+shoot at normal bs was. It's not really. You'll get an average of ~4 more inches, but with only 3 shots at a highly variable d6 damage it's not really worth it; youd be better to run 3 attack bikes and save on some points

[redmapa]

Quick question regarding some rule interactions that are putting some doubt in me: Say I have a Gravis unit with Crux Obsidian, if the damage characteristic of an attack is reduced to one then does that trigger the bonus armor save through the Unyielding in the Face of the Foe strat since now the damage characteristic is one? The way I see it is that it doesnt because the relic changes damage taken and not the natural damage characteristic of the attack, not sure if works like that and I wanted to know how others were playing this interaction in case I was missing some niche combo of sorts.

[CrystalSeer]

That's exactly how that works. -1 damage makes it a damage 1 attack. Then you can use the strat.

[Medjugorje]

do anyone here think that our supplement is tested with the new Codex ?

 

I was thinking about how to improve our vows because "uphold" is a must take all the way which is really really bad designing. How could such a mistake happen?

I mean there are two ways why GW is failing so often in my opinion. I think there are many people working for GW with different goals and a part of them is the selling team which

want to sell their new models and books. So if you want to sell models then a good codex design ( a real option for 4 vows) is a way better tool then one good vow. Same for selling a book - so i dont think thats is happened here.

 

The other trap which GW has too often is that they dont realize how powerful some interactions can be like -1 to hit with stratagem for "no rerolls" + Transhuman phy. and 4++ (Custodes).

But that is not the case here because its easy to see a 5++ works very well on redemptors or every single normal astartes infantry model. So the only left options here:

- GW has just fluff gamers as testers which run over the whole board without thinking ( VALRAK style) and threw some dice and have fund

OR

- GW already tested the new codex ( for example lets say in the new book its possible to have advance and charge the entire assault phase for example, because in this case AAC would be a really strong vow)

 

I dont think GW playtesters are that bad (but maybe I am just hopeless naive -> rumors told point drops for custodes came from playtesters + early rule testers leaks said that harlekins wouldnt be competitive which both would shown how incompetent they really are)

 

Maybe we have a few guys here which have some insights.

[KnightofSigismund]

I often wonder why our faq didn’t answer very many questions etc, could have been some more clarification on things like Grimaldus giving up that many for assassinate and maybe marking the one vow not so worthless. I don’t know why we lost advance and charge now because everything after our book has been bananas powerful

[Medjugorje]

because they think it does not need a faq. Grim give up 12 points, thats his weakness ( dont forget that the secoundary count after the game - so apo healings are 3 VP and Grims special rule compense it a bit.)

[redmapa]

I dont know where our codex stands in terms of old vs new codex but the Vows could easily be improved via FAQ. For example Abhor the Witch would be great imo if it wasnt just reroll 1s to wound in melee, if it did shooting as well it would create another avenue for list creation and options, if Accept Any Challenge didnt have the clause that it doesnt stack with Shock Assault then it would be a valid option for maybe more elite lists who have an invulnerable save. Suffer Not the Unclean is the worst one and you would need to rewrite it completely because you cant fix it with just changing one sentence, maybe make the Passion a leadership check that if it fails the unit HAS to charge the closest unit and if it succeeds then there is no passion.

[Sword Brethren Durion]

do anyone here think that our supplement is tested with the new Codex ?

 

I was thinking about how to improve our vows because "uphold" is a must take all the way which is really really bad designing. How could such a mistake happen?

I mean there are two ways why GW is failing so often in my opinion. I think there are many people working for GW with different goals and a part of them is the selling team which

want to sell their new models and books. So if you want to sell models then a good codex design ( a real option for 4 vows) is a way better tool then one good vow. Same for selling a book - so i dont think thats is happened here.

 

The other trap which GW has too often is that they dont realize how powerful some interactions can be like -1 to hit with stratagem for "no rerolls" + Transhuman phy. and 4++ (Custodes).

But that is not the case here because its easy to see a 5++ works very well on redemptors or every single normal astartes infantry model. So the only left options here:

- GW has just fluff gamers as testers which run over the whole board without thinking ( VALRAK style) and threw some dice and have fund

OR

- GW already tested the new codex ( for example lets say in the new book its possible to have advance and charge the entire assault phase for example, because in this case AAC would be a really strong vow)

 

I dont think GW playtesters are that bad (but maybe I am just hopeless naive -> rumors told point drops for custodes came from playtesters + early rule testers leaks said that harlekins wouldnt be competitive which both would shown how incompetent they really are)

 

Maybe we have a few guys here which have some insights.

Even as a fluff gamer (mostly because there's only a few player in corsica). I would not have done some mistake they have made I think, because even fluff wise there's some strong mistake.

 

In my eyes Helbrecht shall not be a killing machine. A strong guy who give orders/have alot of buff, because that guy screams all the time... So maybe 9" aura instead of 6 ?

 

Emperor's champion would be a bloody killing machine, forced to be taken but without the slot cost for 2k points game.

 

Sword Brethren with 3 wounds, and 4+ invulnerable save at 6" of an HQ.

 

More close combat stratagems instead of shooting. (at least a good balance ?)

 

I really think they can do something for turnament and fluff in the same time. Just they were pretty drunk at this point because, when I played against Tau last time, I just feeled like my codex was outdated. The only really amazing thing we got is the relic bearer stuff I guess. Our vow feel too weak compared to the passion. (And after reading the old codex... Why do we get passion now ? It doesn't exist in V3 or V4 I don't remember)

Edited March 23, 2022 by Marshal Mattias

[Medjugorje]

Helbrecht is exactly what he is in the lore I think. He was always a beast with the sword in the lore - and THIS sword finally has the rules its deserves.

 

The emperors champion rules are a big failure by GW.

 

The problem for the sword brethren is their lack of superiority in close combat. They are just normal marines with +1 attack and access to good melee weapons. 

They should have WS 2+ or +1 to hit in my opinion. (would still not enough to make them competitive but it would be more close to what they are)

 

I think our supplement codex design is great but not well balanced (internal balance). Relic bearers are not what improve our book that much but its a great design and really fits the lore and of course makes us more special in comparison to other marines which I really love so far.