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True Origins of the Soul Drinkers: Dorn's dirty secret

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#1
Moonreaper666

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In the Heresy Short Story, The Chamber at the End of Memory, Dorn talks to Malcador about

Spoiler


Makes me wonder

Spoiler


And also

Spoiler


#2
Bjorn Firewalker

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We know the Chaos Gods had a role in the Primarchs' creation, as noted in the novels The First Heretic and Saturnine. Khorne's attempt to lure Sanguinius to his side (described in the novel Fear to Tread), suggests the Chaos Gods weren't limited to one Primarch each.

What if the II and XI Primarchs were originally pledged to Malal/Malice, whose sacred number is 11? We know Malal/Malice is an insane anarchist who seeks the destruction of Chaos itself, despite being a Chaos God himself. As seen in the short story Labyrinth, the Sons of Malice, who are pledged to Malice, engage in cannibalism, and think nothing of backstabbing each other to achieve their ends.

As bad as Slaanesh, Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzeentch are, they have their own individual codes of conduct, which they enforce upon their followers. How bad would it have been if Malice instigated the Heresy? Would Imperial subjects be forced to cannibalize each other as Malice's influence was spread? Would the Chaos Space Marines seek to purge the entire galaxy of inhabitable worlds, to exterminate the human race, in order to deny rivals among their own number the resources those worlds provide, the slaves the human race could've been?

At least with the other Chaos Gods, there is a chance an Imperial crusade may liberate planets and peoples their warbands hold.
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#3
Lord_Caerolion

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I still just go with the idea that they turned during the Rangda Xenocides, and due to the secrecy of that event, they were able to be swept under the rug. The Heresy, well, you can't exactly turn around and pretend that never happened.


"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


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#4
Moonreaper666

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I still just go with the idea that they turned during the Rangda Xenocides, and due to the secrecy of that event, they were able to be swept under the rug. The Heresy, well, you can't exactly turn around and pretend that never happened.


Nothing about the Ranga Xenocide screams bigger disaster than the Horus Heresy to the point it would have destroyed the Great Crusade Imperium in a short time

#5
Gederas

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I still just go with the idea that they turned during the Rangda Xenocides, and due to the secrecy of that event, they were able to be swept under the rug. The Heresy, well, you can't exactly turn around and pretend that never happened.

Nothing about the Ranga Xenocide screams bigger disaster than the Horus Heresy to the point it would have destroyed the Great Crusade Imperium in a short time

The II and XI Legions and their Primarchs were listed as participating in the Rangda Xenocides, and then disappeared from history after them. Additionally, the Space Wolves and Dark Angels, both Legions implied to be the Emperor's back-ups for dealing with Imperial Uprisings (the Dark Angels are specifically implied to be equipped to destroy Legionnes Astartes AND the Mechanicum, and the Wolves... Well, we all know what happened with Prospero).

 

So the Noodle Incident of what happened to II and XI is involving the Rangda Xenocides.



#6
Moonreaper666

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I still just go with the idea that they turned during the Rangda Xenocides, and due to the secrecy of that event, they were able to be swept under the rug. The Heresy, well, you can't exactly turn around and pretend that never happened.

Nothing about the Ranga Xenocide screams bigger disaster than the Horus Heresy to the point it would have destroyed the Great Crusade Imperium in a short time
The II and XI Legions and their Primarchs were listed as participating in the Rangda Xenocides, and then disappeared from history after them. Additionally, the Space Wolves and Dark Angels, both Legions implied to be the Emperor's back-ups for dealing with Imperial Uprisings (the Dark Angels are specifically implied to be equipped to destroy Legionnes Astartes AND the Mechanicum, and the Wolves... Well, we all know what happened with Prospero).

So the Noodle Incident of what happened to II and XI is involving the Rangda Xenocides.

Spoiler


#7
Bjorn Firewalker

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Why Horus did not want the Missing Legions is beyond me. It would have given him the victory in the Heresy


I suspect the Missing Primarchs and their Legions were supposed to be pledged to Malal/Malice, who wants to destroy the other Chaos Gods. Tzeentch, Khorne, Nurgle, and Slaanesh thus judge the Missing Legions' Marines too unreliable to use, to the point they deny their followers knowledge of Malice's very existence- and thus, deny Malice the worship and religious devotion he needs to challenge the other Chaos Gods.
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#8
Lord_Caerolion

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Because the missing Legions were purged long before the Horus Heresy was even beginning to be planned by Horus? It's not like Horus went "hey, I'd better keep these guys around, just in case I ever decide to betray the Imperium entirely and try to raze it to the ground!"

 

Also, you missed what I meant completely. The Rangdan Cerabvores were an existential threat to the Imperium. They were only defeated at massive, massive cost to the Imperium, and had to be covered up by the Dark Angels and Space Wolves committing said Xenocides. It's highly implied that they were able to corrupt others, as it's also implied that many of who the Space Wolves/Dark Angels killed were human. It also heavily implies in the Space Wolves FW write-up that at least one of the missing Legions was affected, or at least implicated in some way. 


Whole expeditionary fleets went to their deaths without a single survivor, worlds were laid waste, dozens of Titan legions were obliterated and by the end, entire Space Marine Legions [REDACTED SECTION] lost to the Imperium.

 

However, the Xenocides were still contained. Part of the reason the Heresy hasn't been similarly swept under the rug, and the Traitor Primarchs wiped from memory is that their actions touched the entire Imperium. This was not the case with the Xenocides. 

 

I'm also surprised that this book actually exists, given I've never heard anything about it before, and you'd think this sort of information would be far more widely discussed.


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#9
Moonreaper666

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Because the missing Legions were purged long before the Horus Heresy was even beginning to be planned by Horus? It's not like Horus went "hey, I'd better keep these guys around, just in case I ever decide to betray the Imperium entirely and try to raze it to the ground!"

Also, you missed what I meant completely. The Rangdan Cerabvores were an existential threat to the Imperium. They were only defeated at massive, massive cost to the Imperium, and had to be covered up by the Dark Angels and Space Wolves committing said Xenocides. It's highly implied that they were able to corrupt others, as it's also implied that many of who the Space Wolves/Dark Angels killed were human. It also heavily implies in the Space Wolves FW write-up that at least one of the missing Legions was affected, or at least implicated in some way.


Whole expeditionary fleets went to their deaths without a single survivor, worlds were laid waste, dozens of Titan legions were obliterated and by the end, entire Space Marine Legions [REDACTED SECTION] lost to the Imperium.


However, the Xenocides were still contained. Part of the reason the Heresy hasn't been similarly swept under the rug, and the Traitor Primarchs wiped from memory is that their actions touched the entire Imperium. This was not the case with the Xenocides.

I'm also surprised that this book actually exists, given I've never heard anything about it before, and you'd think this sort of information would be far more widely discussed.

It's a Short Story that hasn't been compiled into an Anthology to dry Black Library customers of their money deep and fast

Common people in 40k have basic knowledge of the Heresy and the Imperium has barely survived for 10k years. What the two Lost Primarchs did was so damaging that it would have OUTRIGHT destroyed the Imperium if it were ever revealed right then and there

Dorn did felt fear during the Siege of Terra. After retreiving his memories of the Missing Two he went INTO FULL PANIC MODE, SAID THAT HIS BRUTAL DECISION WAS THE BEST CHOICE and that THIS WAS WORSE THAN THE ENTIRE HERESY!

#10
Lord_Caerolion

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From what I read, it was what they had been involved with that had him panicking that much, which the Xenocides could have, given they were only ended with "the breaking of the Labyrinth of Night by the Emperor", which just so happens to be where the Void Dragon, the Emperors pet C'Tan, is held.

It doesn't say that if the knowledge of them was out, it'd destroy the Imperium, but if they themselves were there.

 

I'm still of the belief that whatever happened in the Rangdan Xenocides involved them, and their fall.


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#11
Borbarad

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Why Horus did not want the Missing Legions is beyond me. It would have given him the victory in the Heresy

I suspect the Missing Primarchs and their Legions were supposed to be pledged to Malal/Malice, who wants to destroy the other Chaos Gods. Tzeentch, Khorne, Nurgle, and Slaanesh thus judge the Missing Legions' Marines too unreliable to use, to the point they deny their followers knowledge of Malice's very existence- and thus, deny Malice the worship and religious devotion he needs to challenge the other Chaos Gods.
Malal is still a thing or just head-canon?

#12
Bjorn Firewalker

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Malal is still a thing or just head-canon?


As the short story Labyrinth was published in 2009's Heroes of the Space Marines omnibus, yes, Malal (renamed "Malice" to sidestep the copyright dispute) is still a thing.
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#13
Beren

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Furthermore, there's an implicitly Malal themed dominion in the Daemons of the Ruinstorm army list.

#14
Moonreaper666

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Furthermore, there's an implicitly Malal themed dominion in the Daemons of the Ruinstorm army list.


Present in Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 trying to retake Scarus, again, post-Rift

#15
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I didn’t realize it was officially written that Dorn accepted members of the lost legion into his ranks. Oh man I need this story in my life! Any more juicy bits?

It makes a lot of sense regarding the Soul Drinkers.

I do have another theory... and man oh man you know I like crazy theories... Sigismund isn’t of Dorns geneline.

Don’t shoot me. I’m not saying that the Black Templar’s aren’t sons of Dorn. I’m not. I’m saying my bet is Sigismund is from another Primarch.

Contrast Sigismund and Alexis Polux in the Crimson Fist... it’s night and day. And remember in that novel when Dorn says to Sigismund:

“You are not my Son”

What if that had more than one meaning. What if it wasn’t an angry father addressing his sons failure, what it that was a barb meant to hit Close to the truth. Sigismund probably doesn’t even know. But Dorn does...

I like it...
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#16
Boldthreat

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Just read it... so Dorn wouldn’t know either... but still a cool theory

#17
Moonreaper666

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I didn’t realize it was officially written that Dorn accepted members of the lost legion into his ranks. Oh man I need this story in my life! Any more juicy bits?

It makes a lot of sense regarding the Soul Drinkers.

I do have another theory... and man oh man you know I like crazy theories... Sigismund isn’t of Dorns geneline.

Don’t shoot me. I’m not saying that the Black Templar’s aren’t sons of Dorn. I’m not. I’m saying my bet is Sigismund is from another Primarch.

Contrast Sigismund and Alexis Polux in the Crimson Fist... it’s night and day. And remember in that novel when Dorn says to Sigismund:

“You are not my Son”

What if that had more than one meaning. What if it wasn’t an angry father addressing his sons failure, what it that was a barb meant to hit Close to the truth. Sigismund probably doesn’t even know. But Dorn does...

I like it...


Just read it... so Dorn wouldn’t know either... but still a cool theory


Not just the Imperial Fists but the Ultramarines as well. The implications are staggering

#18
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I honestly love this concept. That the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists both accepted marines from both of the unknown legions is so exciting... and it adds so much mystery and room for speculation:

Were the Soul Drinkers made mostly of a particular lineage not of Dorns? Does that explain the shenanigans with them and their genetic deviation?

Does that explain why the White Templar’s have just discovered that they are not of Rogal Dorns line?

Is Sigismund himself a true son of Dorn? If not, are the Black Templar’s secretly from another Primarch? Does that explain the differences in temperament? No wonder they don’t bolter drill... of course that doesn’t mean anything... or does it? I love ambiguity. Is this why the Templar’s wore predominately black in the old Legion... What secrets are hidden in the temple on the Phalanx...

Flipping to the Ultramarines... who doesn’t fit the mold? Mortifactors and Doom Eagles always seemed “different” for a primogenitor chapter to me, though they absolutely could be Ultramarines... it’s just open to conjecture.

Even more heretical... are all of the chapters carrying alien (non xenomorph definition) geneseed in their vaults? Even a small amount? What’s crazy to think about... is all true sons of dorn, prior to the Primaris rollout, were missing two organs due to genetic failure... the only way that these Foreign Imperial Fists would have that same deficiency would be if it wasn’t an accident... oh man my mind could play with that.

Only the Admech would know. Cawl would know. Remember during a founding a Chapters entire stock is derived from one original geneseed. The chapter could be told they are from Imperial Fist stock... and they would never know... explains what happened to the White Templar’s.

Makes you also question why the Astral Claws genetic lineage was redacted... someone covering their steps? I like lies.

#19
Bjorn Firewalker

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Makes you also question why the Astral Claws genetic lineage was redacted... someone covering their steps? I like lies.


We know Cawl's a schizophrenic nut- simultaneously reckless (he's apparently willing to disobey the Primarch's direct order and use gene-seed from the Traitor Legions) and overly cautious (he withheld the technology for improved plasma weapons, Repulsor grav tanks, and Primaris Marines for TEN MILLENNIA)- with access to gene-seed from the two missing Legions. Do you suspect he used II or XI Legion gene-seed to create the Astral Claws, as an experiment- maybe intentionally chose someone unsuited to serve as Chapter Master, to see if Huron's nature (gene-seed) can win over a Marine's nurture (Huron's innate personality)- and then forgot about it?
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#20
Lord_Caerolion

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Just remember, Huron wasn't the first Astral Claws Chapter Master, so I doubt he'd be part of any experiment with them.

 

I've just never been a fan of how the Soul Drinkers were introduced. Imperial Fist Chapter? Members determined by personality. Crimson Fists, determined by personality. Black Templars, determined by personality. Soul Drinkers determined by... being the void-fighting specialists? Did the Soul Drinkers get first choice over the specialists, or vise versa, in the case of, say, a level-headed, thoughtful void specialist? I mean, they're the personality trait to go to the Crimson Fists too.

Combined with the whole "we're awesome mutants but still loyal" stuff and they just reeked too much of someones super-cool OC Chapter.


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"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


You're hired.


#21
Boldthreat

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Just remember, Huron wasn't the first Astral Claws Chapter Master, so I doubt he'd be part of any experiment with them.

I've just never been a fan of how the Soul Drinkers were introduced. Imperial Fist Chapter? Members determined by personality. Crimson Fists, determined by personality. Black Templars, determined by personality. Soul Drinkers determined by... being the void-fighting specialists? Did the Soul Drinkers get first choice over the specialists, or vise versa, in the case of, say, a level-headed, thoughtful void specialist? I mean, they're the personality trait to go to the Crimson Fists too.
Combined with the whole "we're awesome mutants but still loyal" stuff and they just reeked too much of someones super-cool OC Chapter.


I wasn’t a fan of the Soul Drinkers lore initially myself. I remember it not jiving for me because I thought the Imperial Fist IA was clear in that the VII Legion was divided into 3 chapters specifically... the die hard veterans who weren’t susceptible to change went with Sigismund, the newer recruits not fully enshrined in the Legion went with Polux. Everyone else stayed with Dorn. So it didn’t make since that we had more chapters that were made of those that didn’t fit that criteria. Even the name seemed off to me... “Soul Drinkers”... sounds so... extravagant compared to Imperial Fists/Crimson Fists/Black Templars... even Excoriators and Executioners have a name that is simple and direct... though admittedly that’s just me.

Regardless here we are.
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#22
Boldthreat

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Makes you also question why the Astral Claws genetic lineage was redacted... someone covering their steps? I like lies.

We know Cawl's a schizophrenic nut- simultaneously reckless (he's apparently willing to disobey the Primarch's direct order and use gene-seed from the Traitor Legions) and overly cautious (he withheld the technology for improved plasma weapons, Repulsor grav tanks, and Primaris Marines for TEN MILLENNIA)- with access to gene-seed from the two missing Legions. Do you suspect he used II or XI Legion gene-seed to create the Astral Claws, as an experiment- maybe intentionally chose someone unsuited to serve as Chapter Master, to see if Huron's nature (gene-seed) can win over a Marine's nurture (Huron's innate personality)- and then forgot about it?

If this theory held any water, my assumption would be that the Astral Claws were founded as an Ultramarine or Imperial Fist successor... which remember, the 4th Founding saw the geneseed vaults of the Admech emptied to make as many chapters as possible. No one would suspect shenanigans until the chapters genetic template would fall under scrutiny... maybe why their successor chapter were denied the help they requested... because the Admech new something was up.
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#23
Sete

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Soul Drinkers were obviously loyalist alpha legion. They got the Spear of Dorn.
When did Dorn have a spear?
The one he took from alpharius.
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#24
Lord_Caerolion

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Just remember, Huron wasn't the first Astral Claws Chapter Master, so I doubt he'd be part of any experiment with them.

I've just never been a fan of how the Soul Drinkers were introduced. Imperial Fist Chapter? Members determined by personality. Crimson Fists, determined by personality. Black Templars, determined by personality. Soul Drinkers determined by... being the void-fighting specialists? Did the Soul Drinkers get first choice over the specialists, or vise versa, in the case of, say, a level-headed, thoughtful void specialist? I mean, they're the personality trait to go to the Crimson Fists too.
Combined with the whole "we're awesome mutants but still loyal" stuff and they just reeked too much of someones super-cool OC Chapter.


I wasn’t a fan of the Soul Drinkers lore initially myself. I remember it not jiving for me because I thought the Imperial Fist IA was clear in that the VII Legion was divided into 3 chapters specifically... the die hard veterans who weren’t susceptible to change went with Sigismund, the newer recruits not fully enshrined in the Legion went with Polux. Everyone else stayed with Dorn. So it didn’t make since that we had more chapters that were made of those that didn’t fit that criteria. Even the name seemed off to me... “Soul Drinkers”... sounds so... extravagant compared to Imperial Fists/Crimson Fists/Black Templars... even Excoriators and Executioners have a name that is simple and direct... though admittedly that’s just me.

Regardless here we are.

 

 

Not just three Chapters, but that the division was based on temperament. The Black Templars weren't comprised of the Assault Companies, for example, but the most zealous. Crimson Fists weren't the Reserve Companies, but the most level-headed. Imperial Fists were the most staunchly loyal and steadfast. Then we get the get the Soul Drinkers, and they're selected based on entirely different criteria.

 

If anything, them being members of a Lost Legion makes it actually make sense. I mean, if it weren't that void fighting was one of the Imperial Fist Legions specializations from the early days...


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#25
Boldthreat

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Just remember, Huron wasn't the first Astral Claws Chapter Master, so I doubt he'd be part of any experiment with them.

I've just never been a fan of how the Soul Drinkers were introduced. Imperial Fist Chapter? Members determined by personality. Crimson Fists, determined by personality. Black Templars, determined by personality. Soul Drinkers determined by... being the void-fighting specialists? Did the Soul Drinkers get first choice over the specialists, or vise versa, in the case of, say, a level-headed, thoughtful void specialist? I mean, they're the personality trait to go to the Crimson Fists too.
Combined with the whole "we're awesome mutants but still loyal" stuff and they just reeked too much of someones super-cool OC Chapter.

I wasn’t a fan of the Soul Drinkers lore initially myself. I remember it not jiving for me because I thought the Imperial Fist IA was clear in that the VII Legion was divided into 3 chapters specifically... the die hard veterans who weren’t susceptible to change went with Sigismund, the newer recruits not fully enshrined in the Legion went with Polux. Everyone else stayed with Dorn. So it didn’t make since that we had more chapters that were made of those that didn’t fit that criteria. Even the name seemed off to me... “Soul Drinkers”... sounds so... extravagant compared to Imperial Fists/Crimson Fists/Black Templars... even Excoriators and Executioners have a name that is simple and direct... though admittedly that’s just me.

Regardless here we are.

Not just three Chapters, but that the division was based on temperament. The Black Templars weren't comprised of the Assault Companies, for example, but the most zealous. Crimson Fists weren't the Reserve Companies, but the most level-headed. Imperial Fists were the most staunchly loyal and steadfast. Then we get the get the Soul Drinkers, and they're selected based on entirely different criteria.

If anything, them being members of a Lost Legion makes it actually make sense. I mean, if it weren't that void fighting was one of the Imperial Fist Legions specializations from the early days...

I agree actually.




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