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Prediction on 9th & how it will affect DA


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#26
Brother_Darius

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So I had a thought, and this relates more to a 9th Edition DA dex more than the overall 9th edition rules.  It does cross over somewhat.  8th edition introduced the doctrines.

9th will probably neaten it up up a bit, but that got me to thinking.

 

Back in the day, the DA banners used to mean something.  We are the only chapter that I am aware of that have had five distinct ones listed.  The three sacred banners plus the distinct Deathwing and Ravenwing banners.  In other additions they have completely been taken out and be no more than any other chapters banners.

 

Edit -

 

I'd like to see them all  brought back flavor-fully in 9th edition.  What if our sacred Banner of Devastation allowed any DA unit in 6" to stay in Devastator doctrine the whole game?  Standard of Fortitude could do Assault doctrine the whole game, etc.....

 

I do understand that Psych Awakening effectively gave us a boosted Deathwing Banner and a Boosted Ravenwing Banner.  unfortunately they take up precious Relic slots.  I'd prefer to see each of them just be a straight up upgrade.


Edited by Brother_Darius, 31 May 2020 - 12:47 AM.

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#27
bigtrouble

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I don’t think I could get into as many specific as you have here, but I always thought CP should have started the same between armies, and I’m glad it seems they are going that way. The more cheap units you bring, the less you have in your strategic reserve for neat cool stuff that buffs them.

Edited by bigtrouble, 31 May 2020 - 04:08 AM.


#28
ValourousHeart

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Lose all strats except ones that are about actual strategy, the pokemon style power ups are horrible imho; it would suit the even 9th Ed CP generation method and only using CP on detachments and other battlefield assets would feel right.

 
There are definitely some strats like Cluster Mines that shouldn't be strats at all.  This only works for scout bikers who are falling back from assault.  It is a very specific situation with a single unit.  Therefore it should just be a special rule on the scout biker data card.
 
As long as "ones that are about actual strategy" isn't limited to the short list of strats used at tournaments, I can get behind this.  There are some interesting strats that should stay in some form because they are interesting, even if they are not effective at tournaments.
 

Lose pre measuring and the ridiculous order of dice roll modification, the previous 7 editions all did it better, the max +/-1 is a weak fix.

 
I think for tournaments getting rid of pre-measuring might be a good thing.  Not trying to pick on tournament players, but if they are the best then a little thing like not being able to pre-measuring shouldn't derail them.
 
But for new players the game should stay more relaxed, and punishing them for simply underestimating distance does not support a growing community.  So leaving pre-measuring in casual settings I think is the right call.  In that setting, if you want the challenge, go for it.  But I don't think that should be forced on new players.
 
I figured out the previous dice roll modification, I figured out the current dice roll modification, and I'll figure out the next dice roll modification.  I don't care one way or the other, just as long as the rules are written clearly.
 
I'm not sure how to feel about the max +/-1.  I don't think that you should be able to perpetually be able to stack -1s to make it impossible to hit.  But I also feel that the Vindicare Assassin should be able to make a shot that an Ork Boy can't make no matter how lucky they are.  I would like to see bonuses and penalties more evenly spread around the stat line.  Like the first modifier applied to the to hit, second to the to wound, third to the save and fourth to leadership.  So as to amplify the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the attack.
 

Bring back templates, and maybe vehicle arcs and armour, somehow. The new  9th Ed blast mechanic is an improved version of a truly rubbish mechanic.

 
While I agree that we need to have a distinction between a rapid-fire battle cannon and an avenger gatling cannon, I don't miss templates at all.  The movement and shooting phases are so much faster without them.  I don't believe we seen anything but speculation on the 9th edition mechanic so its rubbish value is still unknown.
 

Make Characters join units again but make them the last to be removed to avoid tanking.
Their bubbles can effect other close units as per 8th but the characters can be freely targeted once their one bodyguard unit is dead.

 

I feel that the main reason to have characters join units is so you can have your character in front of your unit but still claim that they can't be shot.  If you put your character in front then I feel that they should be able to be shot.

 

You mention actual tactics before, how about the tactics of balancing character auras for front line units while also maintaining a healthy screen of defenders around them.  Seems silly to not consider proactively protecting your characters as a tactic.  Much the same way as character hunting is a tactic.  Or my preference, Force Multiplier times Zero Force equals Zero.

 

A lesser reason is to have them join squads is to have one charge roll so that they and their squad get in to assault.  You could get this affect another way.  If the character is within a very short range of a squad who successfully charged an enemy unit, then the character can charge a full 12 inches (no roll required) but must end up within 1 inch of both the friendly unit and the enemy unit that the friendly unit charged.  Then give the character 3 inch heroic intervention to better position themselves in the assault.



#29
Interrogator Stobz

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I agree that any strats that affect one or only a few units should just be in their profiles.
There are far and away too many strats in the game now, it feels like a card game and I don'tlike it at all; so I disagree that a short list is not needed.

Judging distance is a skill that players can learn, like placement of units and when to move etc. It's a spacial skill that this game lacks in this edition. It doesn't hamper new players any more than having to write lists with thousands of possibile combinations in order to find a successful list. We all get better at everything with practice.

Templates don't slow the game down unless you argue about everything, and they provide more of that spacial awareness skill requirement that 8th lacks. It's one of the coolest parts of Titanicus. So I guess we'll disagree there.

I don't quite get your view on characters, but it looks like we agree on some of it. Joining them to units like previous editions fixes all the current issues as long as the limitation I mentioned is followed.

Happy to disagree, not attempting to change your mind on anything. I'm waiting for 10th.

Edited by Interrogator Stobz, 01 June 2020 - 05:23 AM.

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#30
ValourousHeart

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I agree that any strats that affect one or only a few units should just be in their profiles.
There are far and away too many strats in the game now, it feels like a card game and I don'tlike it at all; so I disagree that a short list is not needed.

 

I wasn't meaning that a short list wasn't needed.  I simply meant that some strats have a great thematic appeal, but do not fit well in a sterilized and hyper efficient tournament model.  So when stripping this down, please don't throw out the narrative.

 

Judging distance is a skill that players can learn, like placement of units and when to move etc. It's a spacial skill that this game lacks in this edition. It doesn't hamper new players any more than having to write lists with thousands of possibile combinations in order to find a successful list. We all get better at everything with practice.

 

The same argument was made about guess range template weapons.  And they were wrong about them being essential to the game.  It is a barrier to entry, plain and simple.  Now placing that barrier in front of a group that believes themselves to be the best.  Right on, bring it.  But the attitude of "get good scrub" when talking to new players is toxic and not good for the community.

 

Templates don't slow the game down unless you argue about everything, and they provide more of that spacial awareness skill requirement that 8th lacks. It's one of the coolest parts of Titanicus. So I guess we'll disagree there.

 

I'm glad that you never experienced a player take advantage of the template rules with magic scatter angels and drifting templates.  I'm also glad you never faced an ork player that took 45 minutes for every movement phase to equally space out 400 models so that everyone was 2 inches apart and every squad had 1 model within range of a single Big Mek with custom force field.  Or the illogical rule that only the bike squad that they tried to hit but didn't could jink.  The other bike squad, you know the one not targeted, but hit because of scatter, that one couldn't jink.  When templates went away, so did all those other things.

 

I haven't played Titanicus, how do blast work in that game?  If it avoids all of those things I mentioned above, I could get on board.

 

I don't quite get your view on characters, but it looks like we agree on some of it. Joining them to units like previous editions fixes all the current issues as long as the limitation I mentioned is followed.

 

So it just occurred to me that I've only been thinking of HQ characters.  So I'd like to amend my previous comments to make a distinction between certain characters.

 

There are some characters in the Sister codex that should be squad leaders instead of separate characters.  I agree that those should be moved back into squads.

 

Where I have the issue with characters hiding in squads is in the distinction between which characters can hide in which squads.  Guliman is quite a bit bigger than scouts, but most players would accept him hiding in that squad even thought realistically you would easily be able to pick him out.  Then where I lose the immersion is when Guliman is physically blocking LOS to the scouts from the perspective of my shooting unit but then only the scouts get hit when I shoot them.  Some serious plot armor Gmans got there.

 

On the other end of the spectrum is Pask.  Most players wouldn't want Pask to be able to hide in a unit of Leman Russes even though he looks exactly like a Leman Russ. It isn't like he has the green gem floating above him like he is a Sims character.  Or like Gman who has a flaming sword.

 

And with all that said I don't enjoy having no chance at all to stop a beat stick character before they get across the board and totally wreck my entire army.  I'm not convinced that your beat stick never gets there any more.  I can believe that your beat stick might not get there as often as you want them too, but that isn't the same as never.  So there has got to be a happy balance between you 100% get there and 100% smash everything and what ever the current percentage is to get there and smash stuff is.



#31
Interrogator Stobz

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-So we agree about strats.

-Guess templates were a step too far, there is such a thing as middle ground.

-I have totally experienced time wasters and cheaters with the template rules, I simply tell them to sort their life out and they either do or I leave. If they spend all game spreading out I assault them bit by bit, so the fear of templates has worked.
Have you seen the time wasted by current players having every unit crammed or conga lined into bubbles? Some players are just 'that guy'.
I prefer templates, you will not change my mind, they are better than random shots bucket o dice math gaming where you can't hit more than one thing with a damned explosion, period. And even more so in Apocalypse.

FYI though: Titanicus has similar blast rules to old editions; declare target, place blast marker with central hole over base of target, within LoS and not touching friendly models, then check range and arc of fire (so spacial awareness is required, my 12 year old can do this fine, it's not the barrier you say it is, some folks just want a maths game where you win at list building time), if in both roll to hit, hits stay there, if missed scatter D10, models under the central hole take 2 hits others take one.
And here's the really cool thing, they can destroy terrain which removes cover, Titans doing what they do best, wrecking stuff.
Oh, and if you miss with some non blast weapons you can hit other stuff along the weapons firing path. Awesome!
The game has the best and tightest rules GW ever invented, by miles. I fully recommend it Brother.

- We totally agree on Characters, some should simply not be able to hide in a unit.
Joining them gives the opportunity to kill the bodyguard then target the character before it can join another unit, that achieves the balance you desire.

Edited by Interrogator Stobz, 02 June 2020 - 09:59 AM.

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#32
Skywrath

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I'm not experienced, but personally, I'm inclined to agree with Stobz's logic and preference about templates. The idea of rolling about 40 dice is a big turn-off for me for one resolution. Seems like overkill. A random mechanic like rolling D6 should still be in the game, for those RNG moments, but it shouldn't be relied on. I'm not sure if any of you play Blizzard games, but that is a prime example of what happens when you let RNG dictate everything. There has to be some certainty, and I think templates should have a place on the table-top.

 

Not to mention, it feeds directly into GW's hands with getting you to purchase more things from them. Personally (and at the risk of sounding political), I'm very much against the idea of indulging capitalists, so any way to reduce that, is a bonus for me. This hobby is expensive enough as is, there has to be ways to minimise costs. Cost to me, philosophically speaking should be expressed on the table-top and how much you play the game. Just to be clear, I'm not against the idea of spending 200 or so AUD on a premium model or a good stat-wise model (like the Lion model from FW, when it drops), but there has to be a balance with things.

 

On a side-note, (and in the nicest way possible) it would appear you have a pretty short fuse with people, Stobz ;p 


Edited by Skywrath, 02 June 2020 - 09:49 AM.


#33
Interrogator Stobz

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Sorry if I come off as abrupt sometimes, my brain doesn't have a filter sometimes.
I was literally smiling the whole time I wrote that load of old nonsense.
And always note that my dissatisfaction is with the rules, not with Brother Valorous for holding a different opinion.

Edited by Interrogator Stobz, 02 June 2020 - 04:38 PM.

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#34
Interrogator Stobz

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TL/DR: A wargame without a spacial challenge is a lesser game; I hope 8.5/9th is more for the Dark Angels than first appears.
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#35
Hellunder

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1. Get a chess clock guys!
2. The latest post on warhammer community implies that CP might be generatet throughout the game in an AoS similar way. That might help the alpha strike shenanigans. I think what breaks the game the  most is how you have to spend all your CP in the first two turns to cripple the enemy.

3. One unit i think might get interesting is the whirlwind if you can max out the number of shots vs infantry. It could be a good primaris killer with 6 S7 D2 shots for example. (or 12 S6 shots)

4.My thought of the darkshroud was exactly the opposite, when you can't get -2 to hit dark talons why pay the points? But I might be underestimating it.

5. Character targeting - I wonder if some kind of 'Look out sir" rule could work? On a 2+ a nearby unit takes the wound when a character is targeted, problem would be how to keep it simple and still not make it a no-brainer to always target characters killing off the screens in the same time...
6. Two things I haven't seen yet but always hoping for is: You shouldn't be able to kill more models in a unit than you can see. That would help our bikes a lot, maybe make them top-tier since they have the mobility to get good line of sight. I also hope that plasma always inflict a mortal wound on a natural dice roll of 1 instead. It shouldn't be able to be modified - it just makes the game messy and complicated.


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#36
G8Keeper

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I'd just be patient guys.  We have literally snippets of the changes to the main rules and no idea at all what may be in the new codex DA (whenever that may be).  Only then can we judge 9th's impact on the Unforgiven. Let's just be thankful GW have expanded their play testing and included the guys at Tabletop Tactics (my personal 40k heroes for very personal reasons) biggrin.png

 

 

 

1. Get a chess clock guys!
2. The latest post on warhammer community implies that CP might be generatet throughout the game in an AoS similar way. That might help the alpha strike shenanigans. I think what breaks the game the  most is how you have to spend all your CP in the first two turns to cripple the enemy.

Personally this would probably be the best way to ensure a game lasts for more turns and becomes more tactical.

 

3. One unit i think might get interesting is the whirlwind if you can max out the number of shots vs infantry. It could be a good primaris killer with 6 S7 D2 shots for example. (or 12 S6 shots)

I like this, I'd go further and say there's a game wide strat saying any vehicle can fire on max no. of shots for X CP.

 

4.My thought of the darkshroud was exactly the opposite, when you can't get -2 to hit dark talons why pay the points? But I might be underestimating it.

The Darkshroud comes in when you're facing off with a +1 to hit enemy.  You're still at the max. -1 to hit thanks to the flyer hard to hit stacked with the Darkshroud.


 

Edit: Responding to Hellunder here rather than new post.


Edited by G8Keeper, 02 June 2020 - 12:40 PM.

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#37
Gederas

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6. Two things I haven't seen yet but always hoping for is: You shouldn't be able to kill more models in a unit than you can see. That would help our bikes a lot, maybe make them top-tier since they have the mobility to get good line of sight. I also hope that plasma always inflict a mortal wound on a natural dice roll of 1 instead. It shouldn't be able to be modified - it just makes the game messy and complicated.

I'm in agreement with both of these. Too many times has a unit of mine been wiped out because they're entirely out of LoS.... except one guy who's shoulder is visible.

 

Totally in agreement on the Plasma thing though. Because Mortal Wounds means most of the time you still lose the model (unless dealing with 2-wound or more models), but you can potentially get a FNP save.
 


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#38
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6. Two things I haven't seen yet but always hoping for is: You shouldn't be able to kill more models in a unit than you can see. That would help our bikes a lot, maybe make them top-tier since they have the mobility to get good line of sight. I also hope that plasma always inflict a mortal wound on a natural dice roll of 1 instead. It shouldn't be able to be modified - it just makes the game messy and complicated.

I'm in agreement with both of these. Too many times has a unit of mine been wiped out because they're entirely out of LoS.... except one guy who's shoulder is visible.

 

Totally in agreement on the Plasma thing though. Because Mortal Wounds means most of the time you still lose the model (unless dealing with 2-wound or more models), but you can potentially get a FNP save.
 

 

Yeah, I agree.

 

If I remember correctly, didn't 7th ed work like this? Were you could only kill as many models as you could actually see from the attackers POV.


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#39
Isual

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1. Get a chess clock guys!

 

If I want to play with a chess clock I play chess. And I will never ever play 40k with such a tool!

 

I`m not a fan of ITC-style 40k and this is another point not to participate in tournaments.


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#40
Berzul

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1. Get a chess clock guys!

 

If I want to play with a chess clock I play chess. And I will never ever play 40k with such a tool!

 

I`m not a fan of ITC-style 40k and this is another point not to participate in tournaments.

 

I have used one to play some casual games when time is actually a restriction. We have done it, with my opponent, so as to try and play the full 5 rounds, before having to end the game due to time, instead of cutting the game short halfway through someones turn. I'm not saying its for everyone, of for every game, but it DOES have its uses in casual formats. Sometimes playing a game, only to have to end it in the middle of battle round 3 or 4, right before a really COOL thing happens, is a bummer.


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#41
Hellunder

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Yeah I didn't mean we all should get chess clocks, but I saw a lot of frustration against slow ork playes etc in this thread and the solution should be as simple as that. So what I really meant was: tired of slow opponents? get a chess clock! I don't use it in friendly games, but it sure can be good sometimes to see how much time you 'waste' during a game. Shooting with 3 talonmasters with re-rolls also takes some times I've noticed. msn-wink.gif

 

On a side note: yes the tournament scene can be quite off-putting at a glance, but my experience is that most people even in casual games try to bring the most cheese out of their armies already. I think this is because of the elements of randomness are disappearing more and more from the game. I mean my army doesn't stand a chance if I don't go for black knights with +1 to hit plasma so they don't die on a 1 and hit on a 2+, combined with screens and talonmasters that can't be targeted. Maybe things like crusade will make the game more 'fun-oriented' and less competitive. It would be cool to see a game mode without strats and without re-rolls.

 

Look back on 7th ed when you always died with plasma on a hit roll of 1 with no re-rolls..


Edited by Hellunder, 03 June 2020 - 10:57 AM.


#42
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I currently play all infantry lists, so I'll be excited to be able to use my vehicles again if the hype is true and they're worth it.  It's not that they were overly bad before, it's just infantry had far more utility and bang for it's buck. Excluding Talonmasters and Dark Talons of course :).


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#43
G8Keeper

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Looking at the news for crusade and matched play missions, this edition is going to be fun! I may have to go away and make up names for the rest of my sergeants now.
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#44
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Looks like we'll be getting to pick secondaries very similar to the ITC ones.

Should give everyone a method of tailoring their victory conditions to their army.


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#45
Isual

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Look back on 7th ed when you always died with plasma on a hit roll of 1 with no re-rolls..

 

IIRC it was just a wound so you had your armor save against overheat. Instant kills for overheat are a 8th edition thing if I am not mistaken.


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#46
Interrogator Stobz

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Looks like we'll be getting to pick secondaries very similar to the ITC ones.
Should give everyone a method of tailoring their victory conditions to their army.


That'll hopefully add some cool variety and depth to play, things are sounding pretty positive, so far I can't cringe at any of the changes 👍

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#47
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Looks like we'll be getting to pick secondaries very similar to the ITC ones.
Should give everyone a method of tailoring their victory conditions to their army.


That'll hopefully add some cool variety and depth to play, things are sounding pretty positive, so far I can't cringe at any of the changes

 

Yeah, I've never used the ITC format before.  I like the flexibly that the system appears to have to tailor to my army, my opponent's army and the mission.  My one concern about the secondary system is that in the ITC games I've seen the scores don't ever seem to be close.  It never seems to end in a 5/4 split, it always seems to be 20+ points in one players favor.  But I have also only seen ITC matches with the tournament winner so maybe that isn't the norm.

 

I prefer games that come down to the wire.  Anyone with ITC experience able to address that?



#48
Interrogator Stobz

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Yeah ITC seems to make very polar results. I don't know why, I have limited exposure to them too a couple of tournaments where I only went for the lolz.

Hopefully 9th makes for many close games, as they say "A close game's a good game".
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Be Pure, Be Vigilant, Behave.

 

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#49
G8Keeper

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In the Twitch stream they were saying precisely that they've tried to make it so that you get a closer game.  They don't like people getting tabled/ so far behind they can't win by turn 2.


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#50
Metaliptica

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For V9 I think it would be interesting if they updated our independant character's warlord trait. More specifically Belial and Sammael : give them a wing specific warlord trait from their respective wing.
I'm also curious about the change to morale and CP this edition. I'm wondering how it will affect Grim resolve (the moral part) and Brilliant strategist.
Finally, I really like the direction they are taking with the primaris bikers and it gives me hope regarding the introduction of primaris into our first two compagnies.


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