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RG Successor List

2000 points Competitive Take-all-comers

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#1
Lukoi

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Gang, would very much appreciate your feedback on this list.  My going in version is, after watching some Nick Nanavati and Matt Estrada matches, is this Brigade, but I will provide a 2xBN/VAN alternate as well, because I acknowledge, most folks feel very strongly about the latter being best option.

 

This is for a RG Successor (Raptors, using Lias Issadon).  To be frank, I'd prefer to play a non-Raptor version, but Lias is simply too "skills," dense a character and has a version of MoA that I cannot build any other way.  I feel like I'd be gimping the list of CP to play a non-Raptor, non-RG version here.  I'm new to modeling/painting, and the thought of kit-bashing together a Lias, let alone smash captain, is pretty daunting for me atm, but looks like I'm gonna have to buck up and figure it out smile.png

 

Without further ado (appreciate your thoughts here):

 

Smoke Keshik (Raptors) Brigade - using Long Range/Stealth, and RG Super Tactical Doctrine, Surgical Strikes

 

++HQ++

Smash Captain - Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Jump Pack, Hero of the Chapter (-1CP), Warlord Trait: Shadowmaster (ignore OW when charging) - 143pts

Smash Chaplain - Benediction of Fury Relic (-1CP), Jump Pack, Warlord, Master of Trifold (-1CP), Warlord Traits: Swift and Deadly, Imperium's Sword - 90pts

Lias Issadon - 150pts

Lieutenant - Teeth of Terra Relic (-1CP), Jump Pack, 78pts

Librarian in Phobos - with Enveloping Darkness (pick and enemy within 18" and denyit OW, -1 to hit rolls), Shadowstep (sling a character with 18" to deploy 9"+ from enemy unit) - 101pts

 

++Troops++

Intercessors x9, Sergeant with Thunder Hammer, Aux Grenade Launcher - 187pts

Intercessors x4, Sergeant, Aux Grenade Launcher - 86pts

Intercessors x4, Sergeant, Aux Grenade Launcher - 86pts

Intercessors x4, Sergeant, Aux Grenade Launcher - 86pts

Scout Squad with Sniper Rifles - 65pts

Scout Squad - 55pts

 

++Elites++

Invictor Tactical Warsuit - w/ Twin Ironhail autocannon - 136pts

Primaris Apothecary - w/ Relic of Gathalamor (-1CP) (this adds a -1 to psyhic tests made within 18", with a risk of mortal wounds to psyker)

Relic Contemptor Dreadnought - w/ twin lascannon x 2 - 222pts

 

++Fast Attack++

Attack Bike Squads x 3 - 111pts (37pts each)

 

++Heavy Support++

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought - w/ twin lascannon x 2 - 168pts

Eliminator Squad (Sergeant has Insigator Carbine so he use "Covering Fire" and run away from those trying to charge the squad) - 74pts

Eliminator Squad - 74pts

 

----------------------------------------------------------------BREAK--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So the underlying premise here is the RG Master of Ambush, Lias' version of Master of Ambush, and the character-killing aspect of RG tactical doctrine are all on the table.  I've gone away from the Cent Deep strike tactics that are highly effective, but also extremely well known at this point.  I believe over the last year, folks have really pigeonholed themselves with these well-known techniques and I see them being effectively countered, or negated by a dice roll not allowing you to go "on your schedule."

 

There are a myriad of combinations here with the Jump pack characters and/or Lias starting off table (even if you have zero intention of a flanking/enveloping move), and the two scouts can start up there as part of Lias MoA for free, which should keep your opponent guessing.  Typically, I'd keep the Chaplain on the ground so that his litany is always cast, rather than bringing him in late, but that allows the Librarian to hopefully sling him to the "Smash Pack's" location if needed.

 

The Apothecary and Librarian typically stay on opposing ends of the "main" formation to maximize detrimental anti-psyker impacts, and the 3 bikes are focused on creating 9" bubbles to screen the rear/flanks of the Army, or to seize/threaten capture of an OBJ using their mobility.  The more I'm tinkering with this, the more I feel the bikes can have an extremely important, if niche role here, but they remain nice and cheap, and mildly durable at W4.

 

The Captain, Lias, Chaplain, Lt can form a nasty little Smash pack of sorts, and the two Dreadnoughts are responsible for the anti-tank work.

 

Goal is to keep the opponent guessing with the deep strike variations, use the infantry heavy "main" to push up into midfield, with the Dreads plinking away from distance if possible, and their rear screened by two of the bikes (on average).  Eliminators do what they do (but pressed up, with Sergeant  using "Guided Aim," and teasing them so they hopefully waste time trying to run one down, letting them use "Covering Fire" to break away and frustrate them).

 

The list is admittedly 28pts shy, which I will tweak to spend (upgrading the Lt to primaris/phobos is an option but I don't want to lose the Jump pack), and the list has 10CP at start time.

 

Now, I can do the exact same list as 2 x BN's, 1 x SH/VAN and lose the bikes, which opens up around 139pts for something like another Invictor, some Aggressors etc, and leaves me 9CP at start time.  So this solid as well, and obviously, gives me some more firepower.

 

My concern there is however, that I have to start using either intercessors to screen, or scouts, which much reduces the threat of the deep strike significantly, even if it's a bluff.  This is why the bikes are on the list.  To assist with board control, and to maximize who can utilize their firepower.

 

Anyway, any thoughts appreciated! Good hunting.



#2
jpwyrm

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This looks interesting, but I don't see what Lias brings to the list. The only units he can bring with him are the scouts, all other eligible units already have Deepstrike capabilities of their own. If you could bump the sniper unit to 10 man and maybe give snipers to the ither squad, then I could see the combo working. His Chapter Master ability also has the old wording of "rerolling failed hits" instead of all hits, but that's a minor issue if you get as much leverage of his abilities as you can.

I don't see what Long Range Marksman does for your list either. You don't have any of the usual suspects for this traits in your lists (flamers, boltsorms, hurricanes, meltas...) so I would advise changing it to either Hungry for battle (it stacks with Lias Infiltrate Isolate and Destroy ability) or Master Artisan.

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#3
Lukoi

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Thanks jpwyrm, very helpful reply. I will definitely review LR vs MA or HfB. I think that's definitely a holdover from following the aggressor/cent model.

As for Lias, I think his version of MoA, his rerolls, his movement bonus bubble, and his general shooting viability makes him helpful, and more effective than a Captain, or Captain turned Chapter Master that would cost even more pregame CP.

I like the scout advice as well btw. Thanks.

#4
jpwyrm

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You're welcome. Could you link the matches you talked about in the OP? I'm especially interested in the Matt Estrada vids.

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#5
Lukoi

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Jpwyrm, totally got sidetracked and failed to come back to this thread.  Unfortunately, I caught those matches on YTube without being logged in on a loaner laptop at the time, so I'm having trouble finding the latter vids.  Nanavati's was during the Atlanta Open (vids by Professional Tabletop), and a couple of others.  If I can run them down, will link them direct here for the Estradas.  They were some over the shoulder types, not formal batreps I believe.

 

I've adjusted my list based on your feedback and those at 40k competitive reddit that were willing to offer some insights, and after playing some TTS games to get a real feel for all of this.  Playing obviously, is the best method :)  And then after some feedback here and reddit regarding the role of the librarian has gotten me to my current list that I'll be playtesting this week.

 

As always, critiques definintely appreciated:

 

++HQ++
Smash Captain - Master Crafted (MC) Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Jump Pack, Warlord Trait: Shadowmaster (ignore OW when charging), Master of the Trifold Path (1CP) for the additional trait of Master of Ambush - 143pts
Charging Chaplain - Benediction of Fury Relic (-1CP), Jump Pack, Hero of the Chapter (-1CP), Warlord Traits: Swift and Deadly - 90pts
Primaris Captain - Reliquary of Galathamor (-1CP) <-- only against certain foes, so often, no Relic at all; MC stalker bolt rifle - 83pts
Primaris Lieutenant - Ex Tenebris (-1CP) - 70pts
 
++Troops++
Intercessors x4, Sergeant with Power Sword, Aux Grenade Launcher - 90pts
Intercessors x4, Sergeant with Power Sword, Aux Grenade Launcher - 90pts
Intercessors x4, Sergeant with Power Sword, Aux Grenade Launcher - 90pts
Scout Squad with Sniper Rifles - 65pts
Scout Squad w/ Combat Knives - 55pts
Scout Squad w/ Combat Knives - 55pts
 
++Elites++
Invictor Tactical Warsuit - w/ Twin Ironhail autocannon - 136pts
Invictor Tactical Warsuit - w/ Incendium Cannon - 131pts
Relic Contemptor Dreadnought - w/ twin lascannon x 2 - 190pts
Aggressor Squad (of six) - 222 pts
 
++Fast Attack++
Attack Bike Squads x 2 - 74pt 
Suppressor Squads x 2 - 180pts
 
++Heavy Support++
Eliminator Squad 72pts
Eliminator Squad 72pts
TFC Team - 92pts
 
10 CP left over (9 if I take the Reliquary based on opponent), and lastly, running Master Artisan + Stealthy.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
My "Smash Pack" just didn't play out as I thought it would, being RG.  Might have worked out better as a different faction, but it just felt like I was pushing my list in a direction it wasn't going to excel at, and I prefer to stick to RG strengths.  So I've reduced it to the JP Captain and Canticle of Hate casting Chaplain, and whatever unit I use the MoA on (typically the Aggressors).  
 
Added Suppressors to add some mildly anti-tank, kept the Relic Contemptor, and stopped trying to make the thunder hammer "counter punch" intercessors work, as the enemy knows where they are on the board.  Attack Bikes remain the most cost efficient Engineer option, and on maps where I take other secondaries they've actually done some work for me in creating small problems that force decisions by the opponent.  I know Brigade's aren't popular in 8E for SM, but it's working for me, so I'll keep the design and honestly it looks like 9E is going to upend everything anyway (given cost changes), so I'm content to let it ride :)

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#6
Alcyon

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The list is super interesting - can you give me a sense of how you deploy and use stratagems? I'm guessing the Smash Captain takes the Aggressors up the board with MoA for a potential first turn charge, joined by the Invictor Warsuits, but how does the Chaplain get involved - he just flies up the board from your deployment zone to join them? 

I would love to hear a bit more about what you mean re: Thunder Hammer Intercessors - were you using SftS to get them into the backline? I was planning on using an identical unit. 

I'm also assuming you castle the Dreadnought up with the TFC and maybe the sniper Captain?

 

How do you deploy and move the MSU Troops? Are the knife scouts mostly a screen?



#7
Lukoi

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The list is super interesting - can you give me a sense of how you deploy and use stratagems? I'm guessing the Smash Captain takes the Aggressors up the board with MoA for a potential first turn charge, joined by the Invictor Warsuits, but how does the Chaplain get involved - he just flies up the board from your deployment zone to join them? 

I would love to hear a bit more about what you mean re: Thunder Hammer Intercessors - were you using SftS to get them into the backline? I was planning on using an identical unit. 

I'm also assuming you castle the Dreadnought up with the TFC and maybe the sniper Captain?

 

How do you deploy and move the MSU Troops? Are the knife scouts mostly a screen?

 

Well take everything I say with a grain of salt, as I'm sure I have many less games than most players here given my newness (but catching a match a day online, when I have time free from work means I can get some practice in for sure).  But this is what I've been trying to do, to answer your questions:

 

Deployment - Obviously the mission/deployment shapes this and whether I'm going first or second (I play ITC only, with no seizing option, so you know from deployment onward when you go).  I will set up with a group of units around the buffing captain, and the Lieutenant, with the latter edging closer to the RCD & autocannon equipped Invictor who tend towards backline as much as possible to retain ranged stand off.  If there are objectives within deployment, or very close to deployment, that's a Attack bike responsibility.  Scout squads are there to create area denial bubbles initially and if I'm going to deny space in the midboard with concealed positions.

 

If I can deploy outside of zone based on the circumstances, Eliminators and the Invictor with Incendium might be out there too.  Smash Captain will be with another cluster to ostensibly buff rerolls, and the Aggressors deploy hidden behind cover.  1-2 Suppressors go into deepstrike depending on whether there are large tanks/knights on the board and how well he can control the board on his end (against a full team of knights, I'll definitely deep strike them, as they won't prevent me flanking them).  Chaplain plays off where ever looks good, but the key is that he remains within 12"+advance (so I estimate 14-15" to be conservative) from where I might need to get him initially.

 

If acting second, the Aggressors will be put up somewhere along an avenue of advance the enemy will likely follow, and I might even deepstrike the Smash Captain and Chaplain (although unlikely).  I also did this after facing GSCult, when I realized I wasn't going to be able to shoot at anything on my first turn (acting first) because he had 100% of his force in ambush.  

 

If acting first, AFTER he's set up obviously, I'll identify where I want to strike hard and first and still believe I have the chance to survive, and I'll MoA Captain+Aggressors to an attack position. I'll infiltrate the Charge Chaplain (move+advance) to have them join him to try and cast Canticle of Hate for the charge bonus.  My goal is for initial deployment to mask my intentions as much as possible, although at this point it's clear, every expects you to MoA if you're the first to act....so it's shaped by how they deploy.

 

I used the infantry, largely freed up from objective holding by the two bikes, to maximize board control while bringing pressure with the elims, TFC, and the smash group (CPT, Chaplain, Aggressors).  If I can break the intercessors forward to assist, I do, but I've learned that RG isn't all that special at melee outside of the potential for repositioning skills.  Swift and Deadly does allow you to march up the board aggressively though (and it's the WL trait on my Chaplain).

 

All of my original list attempts involved a "counterpunching" Intercessor squad of 10 with a TH, but honestly...it's a boogie man that everyone sees coming.  It was harder to get into action than I wanted, even if I used infiltration, or tried to march it up the board, and while potent it doesn't outmatch say a squad of aberrants, or a possessed bomb.  Frankly, I learned I needed to rely more on the shooty aspect of SM than the melee aspect (save for the Captain, and the Aggressors the latter of which can do well at both).  So I deleted that, but the three x five intercessors with AP-3 power swords look like they can dent and tie up a few elite units for me, so I'm trying that for just 12 points spent.

 

If I can castle the TFC, RCD and Autocannon Invictor, I try.  The other Invictor usually ends up pressing forward and trying to catch the "smash pack" to bring it's Incendium into play, or it's there to tie things up that are coming in.  In a perfect, turn 1 scenario - I can MoA the Captain and Aggressors, march up the Chaplain via infiltrator strategem, and if possible, the Incendium Invictor into an area - clear screens and penetrate into something juicy on turn one, and do so in such a way that doesn't risk the entire package from getting out (or living long enough) for most of it to shoot/fight another round.  

 

That means I'm down to 7-8 CP right away though (depending on whether I started at 9 or 10, based on the Reliquary being equipped), and there's still the potential need to use the TFC to blunt the movement of some key melee centric bad assed unit the enemy has (that's paid off for me multiple times already), using tremor shells and potentially suppression (another 2-3 CP spent).  Suddenly your down to as little as 4 CP and probably need to save those for critical rerolls in round 2+.

 

Suppressors (and others if I DS'd any others) come in Turn 2.  I *might* leave a suppressor unit in DS until turn 3 IF I felt the threat of a backfield ambush was going to prevent the opponent from untying area denial units from his deployment zone.  If I can leave a unit in DS, and that influences him into keeping multiple units (even trash units) back to deny ground, it seems like a smart trade and I definitely had it done to me in my first match.  



#8
Alcyon

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More than me, I played my first real game in something like 14 years last weekend! How do you catch matches online?

 

I'm surprised you deep-strike the Suppressors; I'd have assumed with a 48" range they'd be happy to stay on the board turn 1, especially with the Devastator Doctrine and the fact that if they deep strike they get -1 to hit for having moved, right? I get denying ground but it seems like you could do that with Intercessors.

 

Did you ever try the Intercessors with SftS? Since they have Bolt Rifles that'd let them still benefit from Tactical Doctrine, and you could deploy them anywhere without the risk of being exposed turn 1. I was thinking of running mine as a 10-man squad of Veterans and bringing them in to attack from the rear turn 2.

 

I want to post a list soon, I hope you'll keep an eye out for it - would love to hear your thoughts.



#9
Lukoi

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You are absolutely right about the Heavy weapon penalty out of DS but that can be offset by the jump captain going with, or simply balanced against the potential value of the opponent keeping troops back to zone out the board to prevent it.

If I am acting first, Suppressors are more likely to remain on the board, as at 48" they can likely add to the initial punch from the smash pack.

If I am acting second, their deployment influences whether or not I put 1 or 2 in the sky, and whether the Captain goes with.

I've come out of the sky and sniped characters away, especially the types with 4-5 sounds before, on matches where the opponent didnt take the threat seriously enough, and I've also had opponents leave 3 or more units "behind" to keep their back line screened. This works especially if you have the secondary linebreaker.

As for denying ground, I absolutely could do it with intercessor or scout's in the sky, but now we are costing ourselves CP. It seems inefficient to me to do so. And while it's a small difference, three suppressors based together take up a smaller footprint than 5 scouts or intercessor so they have to be diligent about blocking books and crannies.

I didnt get the chance to use the 10 man with TH with SFTS, and it looks like a fun idea, especially if you have them land close enough to benefit from the chaplain's canticle of hate, but in the end I just didnt like my chances of pulling it off. It's a solid melee choice, but not a possessed bomb equivalent that I can build my list around.

I will PM you about online stuff.
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#10
Lukoi

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4-5 wounds, not sounds.





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