9th and Custodes

[TheNewman]

Here's a TTT report, with Spider coaching Stig here and there:

 

https://youtu.be/tBcWPmrvft0

 

Looked like what most of my games with Custodes have looked like, fairly close on points but Custodes are just too fragile.

[crownedzoidberg]

I don't think it's that custodes are too fragile. It seems that Stig(?) didn't really protect his custodes that well.

• The Ogryns/Bullgryns massacred him (thanks to Spiders rolling) - I wouldn't have put the Vexila in combat.
• The Bike-Captain didn't do enough IMO. It's hard to argue if he would have been better on the other side of the board, giving up the 5 primary points.
• The out of position Psyker should have been killed.
• Stig put his 2 Bike blobs and Allarus in the center, without much Impact it feels like. Why not flank with them, sniping away the Psyker, bringing over the Bike-Captain for rerolls?

 

With Custodes I am thinking way more binary than I would with other armies. If you play high mobility models (Termis and Bikers), which are your most expensive - why do you babsysit the same objective with all of them? Do you guys think he played well?

[Skywrath]

I'm new to Custodes, so take what I say with a massive pinch of salt. I watched that video as well, and like crownedzoidberg, I disagree that they are fragile. Having a 3+ invuln is absolutely insane, and those jetbikes are not only durable, but pack a punch in melee/ranged. 

 

With that said, as a new player, I have these two questions: 

 

1. How are Custodes competitively (perhaps in a vacuum scenario)?

2. What units should I go for next? I already have two boxes of wardens (which I will use as regular troops) + a vexilla, Trajann and 3 bikes? 

[crownedzoidberg]

What I see almost everybody play is:

• Trajan, Bike-Captain and Vexila (Trajan gives you extra ~3 CP, a reroll 1s to wound and the niche heroic intervention aura ->useful stuff, I will play him above 500 points)
• 1-2 Squads of Guard, with a majority having Sword and Board to babysit objectives. (If you have FW models, at least one Sagittarus for your home-objective and fire support)

What follows is a matter of preference and playstile - and your opinion on Forgeword models.

You could run a bike-heavy list (as seen in the TTT video, don't let this determine your opinion on bikes please), Foot-Stodes featuring Terminators (FW or not) and some Venatari (FW) (John Lennon played this list recently on AoW), as many Telemon Dreadnoughts (FW) that can fit in your purse

 

A general rule should be unlocking all your stratagems: Don't spam units but rather have a variety to have more strats and tactics for every situation. This is obvioulsy easier said than done, especially as a new player.

Edited December 16, 2020 by crownedzoidberg

[Emicus]

Wishlist: spear and shield.

 

Will pay: many points.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Hmm. I had floated the idea of Custodes suffering  -1 damage army wide as a way to increase their survivability going into 9th, and now DG have that. While it's a step down for them in survivability, it also means that we're very unlikely to see a similar rule for Custodes. It also means that Custode weapons are really going to struggle against DG if they don't get some buffs.

 

As more armies get revealed for 9th I get more and more curious how the balance will settle for the boys in gold once all is said and done. GW has shown they aren't afraid to change long standing mechanics, so what might they do with an army so relatively new?

[Reskin]

I don't think it's that custodes are too fragile. It seems that Stig(?) didn't really protect his custodes that well.

• The Ogryns/Bullgryns massacred him (thanks to Spiders rolling) - I wouldn't have put the Vexila in combat.
• The Bike-Captain didn't do enough IMO. It's hard to argue if he would have been better on the other side of the board, giving up the 5 primary points.
• The out of position Psyker should have been killed.
• Stig put his 2 Bike blobs and Allarus in the center, without much Impact it feels like. Why not flank with them, sniping away the Psyker, bringing over the Bike-Captain for rerolls?

 

With Custodes I am thinking way more binary than I would with other armies. If you play high mobility models (Termis and Bikers), which are your most expensive - why do you babsysit the same objective with all of them? Do you guys think he played well?

No stig isn't that good of a player, custodes aren't fragile, they suffer like GK's and Imperial Knights do, not enough units on the board.

[Prot]

Stig seems like a genuinely nice guy, and by his own admission he had a 7 month layoff.  On the other hand I won't pretend he is a competitive player. But at the same time he is fighting what I consider a growing 'damage' output in the game that keeps happening with every release.

 

I'm going to go against the grain here and say they are, and will continue to get fragile. With the release of Deathguard we can see -1 Damage and a T5 model that just got an extra wound is what is now considered "tough" by GW for a 'marine' standard model.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if all custodes go up 1 toughness, and perhaps 1 wound. Here's why I say this:

 

- I play a lot of armies. The standard of a very tough 'infantry' model is set right now by Wraithguard. I think Custodes should be similar in stature. Not only for the sake of lore, but on the table top it represents the standard and category that a Custodes belongs in. Don't forget the Wraithguard being what it is can still be massively buffed by the potent eldar psychic phase. 

 

- As I mentioned, by the time 9th edition is mostly fleshed out with codexes, I -guarantee- everyone reading this, you will feel like the damage output has doubled, or even tripled again by some armies. I'm not just talking about new codex rules. I'm talking about weapon updates, and cost tweaks to them. 

 

- There are still 'magic bullets' that work exceptionally well against Custodes.... stuff like Null Zone is just a deal killer for Custodes. I put mortal wound armies in that same magic bullet category.

 

- Custodes need survivability perhaps more than any other non-super heavy army in the game. They are one of the most 1 dimensional armies in the game. There's really no psychic phase, no real chaff, no gunline, and a heavy concentration in 9th is board control which makes the low model count an additional challenge.

 

- Right now a great deal of the survival of key units is behind the CP paywall. 

 

- If we use marines as the gold standard I think the damage output, and speed combined with shooting/psychic puts them miles and miles ahead of Custodes. Since I really don't see Custodes getting much inherent damage increases (aside from obvious stuff like Trajan's axe), it's gotta come from some where. It won't be psychics... it probably won't be the shooting phase.

 

I've thought a lot about this while playing my Custodes since 9th dropped. I found I gravitated towards a 'denial' game which isn't the most exciting play style. That becomes a LOT harder with stuff like BA hitting so hard, Scars being a great table dominating force.... I see where Tau and Admech will have those extra damage weapons as well, and I just think the easiest spot to start on with the Custodes is survival....and/or everything gets a lot cheaper which I don't see happening. 

[Reskin]

Stig seems like a genuinely nice guy, and by his own admission he had a 7 month layoff.  On the other hand I won't pretend he is a competitive player. But at the same time he is fighting what I consider a growing 'damage' output in the game that keeps happening with every release.

 

I'm going to go against the grain here and say they are, and will continue to get fragile. With the release of Deathguard we can see -1 Damage and a T5 model that just got an extra wound is what is now considered "tough" by GW for a 'marine' standard model.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if all custodes go up 1 toughness, and perhaps 1 wound. Here's why I say this:

 

- I play a lot of armies. The standard of a very tough 'infantry' model is set right now by Wraithguard. I think Custodes should be similar in stature. Not only for the sake of lore, but on the table top it represents the standard and category that a Custodes belongs in. Don't forget the Wraithguard being what it is can still be massively buffed by the potent eldar psychic phase. 

 

- As I mentioned, by the time 9th edition is mostly fleshed out with codexes, I -guarantee- everyone reading this, you will feel like the damage output has doubled, or even tripled again by some armies. I'm not just talking about new codex rules. I'm talking about weapon updates, and cost tweaks to them. 

 

- There are still 'magic bullets' that work exceptionally well against Custodes.... stuff like Null Zone is just a deal killer for Custodes. I put mortal wound armies in that same magic bullet category.

 

- Custodes need survivability perhaps more than any other non-super heavy army in the game. They are one of the most 1 dimensional armies in the game. There's really no psychic phase, no real chaff, no gunline, and a heavy concentration in 9th is board control which makes the low model count an additional challenge.

 

- Right now a great deal of the survival of key units is behind the CP paywall. 

 

- If we use marines as the gold standard I think the damage output, and speed combined with shooting/psychic puts them miles and miles ahead of Custodes. Since I really don't see Custodes getting much inherent damage increases (aside from obvious stuff like Trajan's axe), it's gotta come from some where. It won't be psychics... it probably won't be the shooting phase.

 

I've thought a lot about this while playing my Custodes since 9th dropped. I found I gravitated towards a 'denial' game which isn't the most exciting play style. That becomes a LOT harder with stuff like BA hitting so hard, Scars being a great table dominating force.... I see where Tau and Admech will have those extra damage weapons as well, and I just think the easiest spot to start on with the Custodes is survival....and/or everything gets a lot cheaper which I don't see happening. 

what a quality post, I would have to agree with all of this. Lawrence used wrathguard in a batrep a few weeks back, and gosh did they carve up. Infact I think it was against custodes.

 

Its the same with Grey Knights, although we have the psychic phase, its incredibly lackluster at the moment. Low model count armies aren't balanced in the slightest. Weight of dice will just cause you a death by 1000 cuts. You simply don't have the control, sure you have some speed with the bikes, but custodes have a 1 dimensional list that everyone runs, and once you start losing bikes, oh gosh it feels so bad. As soon as you have to take invul saves it becomes difficult.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Reskin

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Stig seems like a genuinely nice guy, and by his own admission he had a 7 month layoff.  On the other hand I won't pretend he is a competitive player. But at the same time he is fighting what I consider a growing 'damage' output in the game that keeps happening with every release.

 

I'm going to go against the grain here and say they are, and will continue to get fragile. With the release of Deathguard we can see -1 Damage and a T5 model that just got an extra wound is what is now considered "tough" by GW for a 'marine' standard model.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if all custodes go up 1 toughness, and perhaps 1 wound. Here's why I say this:

 

- I play a lot of armies. The standard of a very tough 'infantry' model is set right now by Wraithguard. I think Custodes should be similar in stature. Not only for the sake of lore, but on the table top it represents the standard and category that a Custodes belongs in. Don't forget the Wraithguard being what it is can still be massively buffed by the potent eldar psychic phase. 

 

- As I mentioned, by the time 9th edition is mostly fleshed out with codexes, I -guarantee- everyone reading this, you will feel like the damage output has doubled, or even tripled again by some armies. I'm not just talking about new codex rules. I'm talking about weapon updates, and cost tweaks to them. 

 

- There are still 'magic bullets' that work exceptionally well against Custodes.... stuff like Null Zone is just a deal killer for Custodes. I put mortal wound armies in that same magic bullet category.

 

- Custodes need survivability perhaps more than any other non-super heavy army in the game. They are one of the most 1 dimensional armies in the game. There's really no psychic phase, no real chaff, no gunline, and a heavy concentration in 9th is board control which makes the low model count an additional challenge.

 

- Right now a great deal of the survival of key units is behind the CP paywall. 

 

- If we use marines as the gold standard I think the damage output, and speed combined with shooting/psychic puts them miles and miles ahead of Custodes. Since I really don't see Custodes getting much inherent damage increases (aside from obvious stuff like Trajan's axe), it's gotta come from some where. It won't be psychics... it probably won't be the shooting phase.

 

I've thought a lot about this while playing my Custodes since 9th dropped. I found I gravitated towards a 'denial' game which isn't the most exciting play style. That becomes a LOT harder with stuff like BA hitting so hard, Scars being a great table dominating force.... I see where Tau and Admech will have those extra damage weapons as well, and I just think the easiest spot to start on with the Custodes is survival....and/or everything gets a lot cheaper which I don't see happening. 

 

 

I agree with everything you've said here, and in fact this is more or less what I predicted Custodes would be going through once books started dropping in 9th. There are some ways I can see Custodes getting damage boosts through side grade mechanics, IE every Custode unit can shoot overwatch for free on 5+, things like that. But their weapons need an overhall, and they need a kick in the butt in terms of survivability. Will we see them get DW style special issue ammo? Flat damage on all of their weapons? Will all of their bolters effectively become heavy bolters? Who knows.

[Emicus]

Whatabout a dreadnought HQ...? :):) That makes everything better.

[Prot]

Thanks guys. I expected perhaps some pushback. Honestly though I often say I'm really not into theory hammer. I prefer to playout my opinions and I've been fortunate to get a lot of games in.

 

I forgot to add that aside from survivability diminishing, I found going second is often a near auto loss against some hard matchups. Mostly those appear to be quicker horde, A good example of this is something like Ork boyz spam where you feel like you are backed up, can't get out, and by going second the primaries become super hard to prevent your opponent from getting. 

 

Against Custodes most clever opponents choose non-confrontational secondaries (since we play denial so well). So in the above scenario I find it really easy for the horde to grab quarters, etc.

 

I've had games going second against this type of match up (Daemons are excellent at this playstyle as well) where I don't feel like I've done anything tactically wrong, but the fact I've gone second puts the onus on me to cut my way out. Unfortunately this isn't an elite 'hero vs hero' match up. In fact I'll often feel like... 'Wow, I'm hacking through this like butter'. Perhaps only losing 1-3 models a turn. The problem is by turn 5 your opponent may nearly be exhausted of meat shields, but you realize with Custodes it can be really hard to push back in time before your opponent has nearly maxed out.

 

The one saving grace I imagine for this issue is the codex secondaries. I mean anyone playing marines is using Oath of moment. Anyone playing Necrons is using one of theirs too. I imagine there has to be something similar coming our way to help mitigate that.

[Reskin]

Thanks guys. I expected perhaps some pushback. Honestly though I often say I'm really not into theory hammer. I prefer to playout my opinions and I've been fortunate to get a lot of games in.

 

I forgot to add that aside from survivability diminishing, I found going second is often a near auto loss against some hard matchups. Mostly those appear to be quicker horde, A good example of this is something like Ork boyz spam where you feel like you are backed up, can't get out, and by going second the primaries become super hard to prevent your opponent from getting. 

 

Against Custodes most clever opponents choose non-confrontational secondaries (since we play denial so well). So in the above scenario I find it really easy for the horde to grab quarters, etc.

 

I've had games going second against this type of match up (Daemons are excellent at this playstyle as well) where I don't feel like I've done anything tactically wrong, but the fact I've gone second puts the onus on me to cut my way out. Unfortunately this isn't an elite 'hero vs hero' match up. In fact I'll often feel like... 'Wow, I'm hacking through this like butter'. Perhaps only losing 1-3 models a turn. The problem is by turn 5 your opponent may nearly be exhausted of meat shields, but you realize with Custodes it can be really hard to push back in time before your opponent has nearly maxed out.

 

The one saving grace I imagine for this issue is the codex secondaries. I mean anyone playing marines is using Oath of moment. Anyone playing Necrons is using one of theirs too. I imagine there has to be something similar coming our way to help mitigate that.

I'm the same, I don't take stock of internet know-it-alls as is never applies to my meta. I form my own calculated opinions, then its just nice when sites like goonhammer confirm my opinions. Means I'm thinking a long the same lines as the "elite mathhammer/tournament" players.

 

And going second for elite armies sucks, you get hemmed into your deployment and cant get out, you get bogged down and then fall behind on the primary... although take comfort in the fact, you cant get a worse win rate then GK's going 2nd, at 27% win chance.

[MegaVolt87]

Seems rather doom and gloom for elite armies like custodes right now. I am very much at a loss myself what to do with mine. Probably have to build a list for kill hammer to not get behind. Can't out score you if they dead or only contesting.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

There are other sleeper problems too that haven't been discussed here, but will become hot topics if Custodes do somehow become the meta. IE, the Necrons have a cryptec who can turn off a unit's obsec. That might not be so big a deal for armies that can put more than one unit in an area to counter that, but Custodes certainly can't. I'm sure there are plenty of other little things like that we'll start to see even if Custodes get a power bump, so I'm interested in how those will get handled as well.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Mostly point drops for our units...10 off for bikes now?

 

Valerian and gal are still quite meh albeit usable. Can't take sisters as troops still limits their use heavily.

 

 

Banners are now...free??? Just 85 points for the model? Auto include all day (as if they weren't before?).

 

 

Sword and board down in points...holy moly.

 

Alluras went up a bit.

 

 

On the whole I think this opens about 30 to 50 points in my lists between bike captains and banner.

 

 

Do note war of the spider was also updated.

 

 

Vengeance of the machine spirit is not utterly useless applying only to land raider. Rip pallas final shot.

[Skywrath]

New player here, disclaimer.

 

Yeah, if we were hovering (pun not intended) at the top of T2 (A-tier), I think those points changes put us back to T1 (S-tier). Although I am seriously hoping those points changes are there for good reasons, and not there to compensate for an upcoming nerf. I can think of perhaps 2-3 things in the Custodes codex that are looking like they will get nerfed.

 

Goonhammer article:

 

As we mentioned before in regards to the Introduction in the Munitorum Manual: “…weapons and wargear not listed in a unit’s entry cost no additional points to include in that unit).”

 

This is important to note for Custodes. The Guardian Spear is not mentioned in the entry cost for several units (with a few exceptions), which suggests they’re now free for several units (0 points). More importantly, there’s no points value listed for any of the Vexila standards, which means they’re now free as well!

 

The Custodian Wardens took a small hit for the zero people taking them, while the base costs for the Shield-Captain and the Shield-Captain in Allarus Terminator Armour have gone up (+5 points), but the weapon costs have gone down, resulting in a net change of zero points.

 

Finally Vertus Praetors get a flat 10ppm reduction. It’s a good time for big gold bikes.

 

There were no changes to the Forge World units for Adeptus Custodes, which makes sense as the book was only released recently.

 

All in all, the Custodes look to be big winners from this update, walking out with a number of points changes that make them look significantly better, as well as the added benefit of being favored by the changes to While We Stand, We Fight, which is a whole lot better when it can be used on big, tough units (which they specialise in) and is particularly hilarious on a big block of Allarus all splitting up – one guy can just run away out of line of sight and prevent you scoring the points even if you kill the rest.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Skywrath