Upgrading from the Vanguard Start Collecting Box

[Alcyon]

Brothers of the Raven!

 

Been a couple 2/3 years since I was here in the birdcage; I dropped out of the hobby and sold all my stuff, and now I've been sucked back in after moving and finding out I'm only a couple blocks from my old group of friends. 

 

Bought the Start Collecting Vanguard box and started working on an RG successor scheme so I can experiment with all the Successor Traits and new Primaris. I've been reading a lot of 1d4Chan and Tacticas here as one of my favourite parts has always been list building; I've got some questions and would love general advice on which units are good in Primaris lists right now. I know we're on the eve of 9th edition so things may be up the air, but it sounds like the codexes should be solid for now.

 

Do people still like Veteran Intercessors? I know these were key for Primaris melee with their base 3 attacks plus 1 for Shock Assault, but 2 CP now seems like a lot for 1 Attack and 1 Ld in a 10-man squad when you could buy 10 Reivers for 10pts less. It does seem strong to have all the shooting attacks lead into all the CC attacks especially when you can use the Rapid Fire Stratagem.

 

Also, what do you most like to infiltrate with Master of Ambush? It seems best for units you want on the board turn 1, namely things with Heavy weapons for Devastator Doctrine or just anything you want to shoot with and not Deep Strike turn 1, or something like a Chaplain since he can only use Litanies when he's on the board. Centurions used to be the pick but now that's out, so... Aggressors? Hellblasters seem like a waste since they don't need a melee HQ and a Phobos Captain can Concealed Positions so doesn't need MoA. 

 

What would you add to the Vanguard box? I'm thinking another squad of Eliminators so I can get some Las Fusils in the list, and maybe a squad of Hellblasters though I'm worried it'll be tough for them to get in range to support the Infilitrators.

[Claws and Effect]

Centurions are still great. Just use Strike from the Shadows instead of MoA.

 

I prefer the sniper Eliminators, mostly because they are one of the best units available to leverage our super Doctrine, because they can target characters.

[Alcyon]

Bribery photo: couple of EtB Intercessors I've been testing schemes on. I need to thin my paints more! These are the first minis I've painted since 2006 and I'm still learning how a wet palette works.

 

I think I'll do white helm tops for Veteran Intercessors and I wanted to make sure they were bright enough to stand out from the standard grey. Dunno what happened with the eagle there making it glossy but I reprimed this mini black over old paint so don't read too much into it.

 

[Dracos]

“Duz , WarriorHunter ... come here. He’s one of you guys.”

 

Alcyon, test model? I wish my best models looked that good. Glad to your here anyway though. Lol. Seriously sweet work and I like the color pattern.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Brothers of the Raven!

 

Been a couple 2/3 years since I was here in the birdcage; I dropped out of the hobby and sold all my stuff, and now I've been sucked back in after moving and finding out I'm only a couple blocks from my old group of friends.

Welcome back!

 

 

Bought the Start Collecting Vanguard box and started working on an RG successor scheme so I can experiment with all the Successor Traits and new Primaris. I've been reading a lot of 1d4Chan and Tacticas here as one of my favourite parts has always been list building; I've got some questions and would love general advice on which units are good in Primaris lists right now. I know we're on the eve of 9th edition so things may be up the air, but it sounds like the codexes should be solid for now.

I bought two of the start collecting vanguard boxes, because I really like everything there. There are a ton of really solid options to add on. I really like everything that the vanguard box has. I added a lot of the first wave primaris stuff, like intercessors, aggressors, rievers, inceptors, and I added invictors as well.

 

Invictors are especially useful for a phobos centric force, since they set up using the same concealed positions rule. It gets a support walker into position to support your phobos marines quickly.

 

As for the Codex, Space Marines will probably be one of the first Codecies to get an update. It's the Flagship line, and they are getting a bunch of new stuff.

 

 

Do people still like Veteran Intercessors? I know these were key for Primaris melee with their base 3 attacks plus 1 for Shock Assault, but 2 CP now seems like a lot for 1 Attack and 1 Ld in a 10-man squad when you could buy 10 Reivers for 10pts less. It does seem strong to have all the shooting attacks lead into all the CC attacks especially when you can use the Rapid Fire Stratagem.

 

Yes. Veteran Intercessors are still the best primaris melee. That probably won't change. Though it seems to me that people aren't running Veteran Intercessors as 10 man squads. I run my in five man MSU in my lists. I haven't been able to get any games in, but it seems to be the best way. It saves a CP and it's likely not going to change. The benefit that the intercessors have is that it only costs CP to get that extra attack, and they don't sacrifice shooting to do it. Rievers give up shooty for choppy, and they don't do it any better. Incursors are a better take for melee than rievers, for the same reason, plus their haywire mine, and the ignoring cover and ballistic skill modifiers, at 40 points more for a full squad you get a unit with a ton more use and threat.

 

 

Also, what do you most like to infiltrate with Master of Ambush? It seems best for units you want on the board turn 1, namely things with Heavy weapons for Devastator Doctrine or just anything you want to shoot with and not Deep Strike turn 1, or something like a Chaplain since he can only use Litanies when he's on the board. Centurions used to be the pick but now that's out, so... Aggressors? Hellblasters seem like a waste since they don't need a melee HQ and a Phobos Captain can Concealed Positions so doesn't need MoA.

Aggressors are probably my go to, at least in theory. It is a WT that is best used on a non phobos HQ. A Chaplain or Gravis Captain seems to be the best choice. Hellblasters would be a waste, since you want them a bit further back. MoA works great on Phobos LT's, because they don't have the concealed positions rule, but their melee has exploding 6's like the incursors. Give him Ex Tenebris and use him to buff your eliminators, and if you use infiltrators with the comms array, they get his buffs anywhere on the table.

 

 

 

What would you add to the Vanguard box? I'm thinking another squad of Eliminators so I can get some Las Fusils in the list, and maybe a squad of Hellblasters though I'm worried it'll be tough for them to get in range to support the Infilitrators.

I was a fan of the las fusils, but I was convinced that it was more reliable to spam more lower strength shots to take out vehicles. I use Storm talons with typhoon missile launchers as my anti-tank, with my Invictors as the melee option. Invictors with the Autocannon, or a redemptor with the gatling guns is also an option.

 

Hellbalsters in an Impulsor is a neat idea that you could look into (especailly since the Impulsor can take a bubble shield or orbital bombardment).

 

 

 

Bribery photo: couple of EtB Intercessors I've been testing schemes on. I need to thin my paints more! These are the first minis I've painted since 2006 and I'm still learning how a wet palette works.

 

I think I'll do white helm tops for Veteran Intercessors and I wanted to make sure they were bright enough to stand out from the standard grey. Dunno what happened with the eagle there making it glossy but I reprimed this mini black over old paint so don't read too much into it.

 

If you want to preserve the detail, you might consider stripping your models. LA's Totally Awesome is like $3 a gallon at Dollar General, and at full strength it will strip it to bare plastic. Seriously though, That looks great.

 

 

 

[Jacques Corbin]

For the Phobos Lieutenant with Ex Tenebrous, I go for the one with grav chutes. Drop him and a squad or 2 of bolter Inceptors into cover, and watch your opponent struggle to dig them out, and/or move their characters out of range with the quickness. I enjoy disrupting my opponent's strategy and forcing them to make difficult choices. Then again, I am oftencalked insane, because I would rather go 50/50 in close games than have a list that can run over most other lists in my area.

 

That said, get a pair of Thunderfire Cannons.

[Alcyon]

Centurions are still great. Just use Strike from the Shadows instead of MoA.

 

Which Centurions would you run? Sounds like Grav got quite the nerf but it still seems ok compared to the Heavy Bolters, you lose 2 shots in exchange for AP -3 and potential D3 damage. Range doesn't seem like too big an issue if you have SftS. That said it does seem like a shame not to have them on the board turn 1 when their weapons get another -1 AP. In contrast Aggressors seem like a better SftS option given their weapons are all assault anyways. And yet saying that, it seems a lot tougher to charge out of SftS than it does MoA given you count as already having moved. So MoA seems like a cc-focused ability and SftS seems like a shooty one.

 

“Duz , WarriorHunter ... come here. He’s one of you guys.”

 

Alcyon, test model? I wish my best models looked that good. Glad to your here anyway though. Lol. Seriously sweet work and I like the color pattern.

 

That's some illustrious company you're putting me in! I dunno if I quite deserve it, wait till you see some actual finished models. Thank you very much though! It's based on a lot of paint planning and watching Miniac on YouTube. I wanted something dark and stealthy but with a bit of contrast.

 

 

Brothers of the Raven!

 

Been a couple 2/3 years since I was here in the birdcage; I dropped out of the hobby and sold all my stuff, and now I've been sucked back in after moving and finding out I'm only a couple blocks from my old group of friends.

Welcome back!

 

 

Thank you! Definitely excited about the other Primaris options, a box of Intercessors is in for sure. I expect to fight mostly other marines so I think I might get a Redemptor with plasma and an Invictor, always loved dreadnoughts. 

 

Re: Veteran Intercessors, the unit gets access to some strong stratagems (Rapid Fire, Gene-wrought Might) and if they're going to be infiltrated then it makes sense to have one bigger unit, to me. I hate the Incursor models (stupid cyborg visors) so I don't think I could bring myself to paint them, as good as they seem. I do love the idea of an Ld bomb with Reivers but I agree it seems weaker than Intercessors. 

 

Sounds like I'll eventually expand from a Primaris Captain with the Veteran Intercessors to an MoA Chaplain with Aggressors, then relegate the Vet. Ints. to SftS to stand on an objective turn 2. I love the Primaris Lieutenant model with the Reiver mask but he just seems weak in CC compared to other options given he can't take a Power Weapon. I think I'll stick with the one in the Vanguard box and keep him in the backline with Ex Tenebris like you suggested (though I'll need to use two CP to grant it to him as a successor with a different warlord...)

 

The "more shots over higher power" does seem like a hallmark of the current edition. I'm leery of Lascannons with the huge variance in a D6 damage roll, the guaranteed 3 with the Fusils seems very strong. I think eventually I'll have three squads with a Bolter Sniper as sergeant in each, and six Fusils; that should take care of any AT I need on top of the dreadnoughts. I can't resist plasma on the Redemptor but I'll definitely run the chaingun in the other hand over the Heavy Flamer.

 

Trying to run no tanks, especially since I hate the look of the Primaris ones, but Hellblasters do seem like a good pick for a transport. It's crazy that Primaris only get a Razorback with no good guns and a Rhino that's armed like a Land Raider. If you only have six Hellblasters I feel like you might as well get Inceptors instead with their own transport built-in.

 

Thanks for the kudos on the paintjob! I literally only bought these 3 EtB guys to test schemes so I doubt they'll ever be in my army, though I might paint up the sergeant as a Lieutenant (I guess I'd have to re-base him.) I'll definitely strip them if I end up wanting to do another scheme though.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Alcyon

[Alcyon]

For the Phobos Lieutenant with Ex Tenebrous, I go for the one with grav chutes. Drop him and a squad or 2 of bolter Inceptors into cover, and watch your opponent struggle to dig them out, and/or move their characters out of range with the quickness. I enjoy disrupting my opponent's strategy and forcing them to make difficult choices. Then again, I am oftencalked insane, because I would rather go 50/50 in close games than have a list that can run over most other lists in my area.

 

That said, get a pair of Thunderfire Cannons.

 

Grav Chute does seem like a necessity without Concealed Positions unless you're using MoA. I wonder if they'll change the rules up on that guy in 9th Ed. I am warming up to the Inceptor models but I feel like plasma would be the way to go, and then they'd want a Captain more than a Lieutenant... And then there's no way for one to keep up to them without going Firstborn and wearing a jumppack.

 

Thunderfires do seem great. Hate the models (wow, am I saying that a lot) including the paired Techmarine, but I might run Kromlech’s Storm Cannon as an alternative plus the MkIII Forgeworld Techmarine if I do decide to pick one up. Then it can stand in the backline with a Mortis Dreadnought or something like I'd planned to do with Sons of Medusa almost a full edition ago.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Alcyon

[Dracos]

Plasma Inceptors are poorly pointed for what they give you compared to the Bolter Inceptors. Plasma had a bad deal in 8e. High cost low output compared to Bolt Weapons and the new Marine doctrine bonuses. Point adjustments in 9e might fix that but plasma has always been fairly pricey.

[duz_]

Welcome back from the warp Alcyon

I see you have met the other commanders

 

Vanguard box is a great way to jump back into RG very thematic

 

Reivers are kinda eh right now, both variants unfortunately (and I have 10 of each!), hopefully in 9th they have more utility like was implied on the announcement stream.

 

Test models look good. It might be because you primed over existing paint, but some of it does seem a bit thick in places? Might need to thin a bit more if its not from the prior coats?

Wet palettes are great - especially for edge highlighting! Keep that paint at the Goldilocks consistency you can get a fair bit of a model done before having to re-thin again

 

I never really saw veteran intercessors on the table to be honest, I do love my Invictor warsuits though :D 

Those guys take a great deal of punishment and your opponent can't ignore them

 

 

One problem I see far though.... There is no mention of Shrike!! 

[Hiroitchi]

Personnaly man I'd build and paint what you have and then wait for the new starter to come out that way you can go from there. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Grav Chute does seem like a necessity without Concealed Positions unless you're using MoA. I wonder if they'll change the rules up on that guy in 9th Ed. I am warming up to the Inceptor models but I feel like plasma would be the way to go, and then they'd want a Captain more than a Lieutenant... And then there's no way for one to keep up to them without going Firstborn and wearing a jumppack.

I'd like to see phobos LT's get reworked to either take grav chutes or concealed positions. Inceptors are really kinda cool, but I wish they were better in the assault. I hope we see more character options for primaris characters. An Inceptor/suppressor LT would be great.

 

Thunderfires do seem great. Hate the models (wow, am I saying that a lot) including the paired Techmarine, but I might run Kromlech’s Storm Cannon as an alternative plus the MkIII Forgeworld Techmarine if I do decide to pick one up. Then it can stand in the backline with a Mortis Dreadnought or something like I'd planned to do with Sons of Medusa almost a full edition ago.

If you're going to run the Kromlech, you might as well use the rapier carrier rules, Quad launchers are more versatile IMO.

[Riddlesworth]

Tons of ways you can go after the vanguard box.

 

I personally am a fan of doubling up on start collecting boxes for a solid core.

A second start collecting box and a Phobos captain currently will give you a solid list with rerolls everywhere (Comms array) and a decent amount of CP. It has anti light vehicle coming from the suppressors and eliminator bolt rifles under raven guard doctrine are mean. Clocks in in 8th ed at just under 1000 points too.

 

You could also splash out on a box of aggressors. both they and hellblasters are great targets for master of ambush and strike from the shadows, though hellblasters are better off the deep strike and aggressors for MoA.

 

3 aggressors can replace a 5 man unit of infiltrators in that.list above for that MoA target too

[Alcyon]

Here's my plan at the moment, though the planning is just for fun, trying not to get too big for my britches.

Vanguard box Patrol detachment = 500pts

+ Primaris Captain, Intercessors w/ TH in a Battalion = 750 pts

+ Invictor, Las Fusil Eliminators = 1000 pts

 

Plasma Inceptors are poorly pointed for what they give you compared to the Bolter Inceptors. Plasma had a bad deal in 8e. High cost low output compared to Bolt Weapons and the new Marine doctrine bonuses. Point adjustments in 9e might fix that but plasma has always been fairly pricey.

 

That's sad to hear. What do people use against MEQ? Bolters seem ok against Firstborn especially if you have a Lieutenant, and Stalkers seem alright against Primaris, but it's a bummer that all the plasma does need to supercharge to deal 2 wounds. Suppressor Autocannons seem like a good option though. I'm shocked that I can't seem to find an updated version of the 3plusplus Space Marine weapons chart. 

 

Welcome back from the warp Alcyon

 

Thanks Duz, nice to see y'all again! What was the implication? If they're an Elites choice they should definitely be veterans and get another attack at least... -1 AP on their knives wouldn't be bad either.

I probably do need to thin down some, still getting back into the swing of it after so long.

I love the idea of Veteran Intercessors, I think a 10-man squad with a Thunderhammer sergeant and a Primaris Captain will be my next purchase for the Vanguard box to take it to 750pts. Nice excuse to do a unit with veteran insignia and they seem like jacks of all trades.

Shrike, honestly, hate that emo haircut, and it seems like a nonbo to me that he wants to charge first to deny Overwatch, but then he'll be 6" away from any nearby units that would want to benefit from his re-roll charges ability. I also frankly don't like how every army practically has to run a Chapter Master for rules reasons these days, and I'd rather have my own models and flavour for my successor.

 

Personnaly man I'd build and paint what you have and then wait for the new starter to come out that way you can go from there. 

 

Always good advice. Unfortunately buying things feels like accomplishing a hobby task as we all know ;)

 

Tons of ways you can go after the vanguard box.

I personally am a fan of doubling up on start collecting boxes for a solid core.
A second start collecting box and a Phobos captain currently will give you a solid list with rerolls everywhere (Comms array) and a decent amount of CP. It has anti light vehicle coming from the suppressors and eliminator bolt rifles under raven guard doctrine are mean. Clocks in in 8th ed at just under 1000 points too.

You could also splash out on a box of aggressors. both they and hellblasters are great targets for master of ambush and strike from the shadows, though hellblasters are better off the deep strike and aggressors for MoA.

3 aggressors can replace a 5 man unit of infiltrators in that.list above for that MoA target too

 

That's an idea, I think I'm too excited about painting some different models to buy a duplicate box, especially when many of the sculpts are fixed. Another box of Infiltrators might be in my future plus more Eliminators for sure. 

[Riddlesworth]

 

That's an idea, I think I'm too excited about painting some different models to buy a duplicate box, especially when many of the sculpts are fixed. Another box of Infiltrators might be in my future plus more Eliminators for sure.

 

That's fair. I like running pairs of units. It appeals to my brain...

 

I've had a lot of fun with incursors using the whirlwind of rage successor tactics (as an option out of that infiltrator box)

 

10 veteran intercessors with strike from the shadows and the rapid fire stratagem is a fun trick to consider.

 

Also aggressors. Because aggressors. Every primaris ravenguard or white scar army should have a unit of aggressors

[Dracos]

.

Also aggressors. Because aggressors. Every primaris ravenguard or white scar army should have two unit of 5 aggressors

Fixed for you ;) Edited June 11, 2020 by Dracos

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I like aggressors, especially for my successor chapter's love for rapid assaults with hard hitting units.

[Riddlesworth]

I mean.....you're not wrong....