Can terminators make a comeback?

[Dracos]

I’ll agree Centurions and other units are potentially getting a breath of fresh air with the new rules. Will hold final judgement until we can see everything together.

 

But

 

As a Raven Guard player theorycrafting for 9e. I can tell you that with the new table sizes and the bonus of more terrain per square foot ... blocking out strategic reserves is going to be fairly easy. Two Infiltrator units and three Eliminator Squads and you have totally blocked out the ability to bring reserves (except your own deployment zone) until those units have been removed.

 

Different armies are going to be able to do the same thing different ways ... and my favorite thought of course is leaving a spot open where the opponent can come in ... but then faces Auspex fire from [pick favorite firepower unit] :)

 

 

PS: I can live with Cents taking a hit as long as it’s truly a fair bump ... just leave my Aggressors alone ;)

Edited June 24, 2020 by Dracos

[jaxom]

I did a bit of breakdown between Centurions and Cataphractii as the have the same movement speed. The current points terribly favor Centurions. However points can change. So let's take a look at point agnostic metrics.

 

Ranged Firepower (all weapons roughly the same Str and AP so I calculated them all together)

Outside Flamer and Grenade Harness range: Cents = 3 attacks per wound, Cats = 2 attacks per wound.

Inside Flamer and Grenade Harness range: Cents = 3.875 attacks per wound, Cats = 2.35 attacks per wound.

 

Melee Attacks - Cents attacking at Str 10 AP-4 3D compared to Cats Str 8 AP-4 D2 

Shock Assault: Cents = 1.08 attacks per wound, Cats = 1.6 attacks per wound

Normal: Cents = 0.833 attacks per wound, Cats = 1.1 attacks per wound

 

Saves are the same agains AP-2 and less weapons so let us talk about overcharged plasma. It takes 4.5 hits from overcharges plasma to remove 1 Centurion (1.125 hits per wound) and 2.4 hits to remove 1 Cataphractii (1.2 hits per wound).  Each 2 hits removes a Cataphractii so their unit degrades faster.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Lolz that is all I has to say.

[Dumah]

Lolz that is all I has to say.

Care to expand on that in a constructive way?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Something got deleted.

 

=][=

[TiguriusX]

I'll do what I can to make opponents fear space wolf terminators when the plague is over.

 

We can carry basically any weapon combination and hit on 2s with stratagems as needed.

 

I am testing a full 10 man combi plasma with 8 storm shields and 2 chainfists

 

Arrives turn 2 and deletes something with plasma shooting and has the option to canticle of hate charge into something else

 

I pop transhuman physiology to survive incoming fire then repeat the BS2 plasma with whatever is still alive

 

Expensive as heck but so far it gets the job done

[Medjugorje]

Saw it in the leaks. Terminators had no price up. Even the Assault Cannon is cheaper for them now. Dont saw the point changes on close combat weapons but I think Terminators could be worth it now although they are not better but cheaper.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That’s all they needed.

[BrainFireBob]

I have been waiting for termies to get way cheaper or go Troops, like Grey Knights.

 

I've also been waiting for a fluff blurb that there's piles of near complete suits, but only one Forgeworld had the STC for 4 mm hex head screws, and Cawl was requisitioning them all for Gravis armor. What could be more 40k?

Edited July 1, 2020 by BrainFireBob

[Medjugorje]

but stormshields will work different now. Its not a 3++ anymore. It will be a 4++ and +1 to the armor save.

[BrainFireBob]

They have a native 5++. Wait for full rules. Might be true, might not

[War Angel]

but stormshields will work different now. Its not a 3++ anymore. It will be a 4++ and +1 to the armor save.

I like this change. It feels like such a waste to shoot high ap at storm shields, but then you still need some AP just to get past that damn 2 up.

 

Now a hell blaster at a terminator doesn’t feel like you just spent $2 on a pop tart at 7-11

[Cruor Vault]

Depending on how the last few rules mechanics we haven't seen shape up, and on the cost of Hammers and Shields for Terminators there might be a solid case for them to make a return to the table.

[Dracos]

Raven Guard Terminator 12+ inches away with Storm Shield in Dense terrain that counts as Light Cover Armor Sv = Infinity?

[TiguriusX]

I think the storm shield change is mostly a positive for terminators

 

Damage 2 AP1 and AP2 was good at killing them and efficient with 3++ (autocannon etc)

 

Now a terminator can shrug that and other small arms fire off with a 2+ still

 

Plasma is still a 3+ if the terminator has cover (AP3 v save of 2 with cover + storm shield bonus)...so no change. Plasma in tactical doctrine is a bigger threat now.

 

You basically need dedicated anti tank weapons to benefit from the change (ap3 and ap4)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Link to change for shields ? I don’t wanna discuss speculative rumors any more.

[CCE1981]

Link to change for shields ? I don’t wanna discuss speculative rumors any more.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/hjhdyt/indomitus_datasheets/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

 

Just check the entry for the Bladeguard and Lieutenant.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

but stormshields will work different now. Its not a 3++ anymore. It will be a 4++ and +1 to the armor save.

That's very interesting. It's kind of weird how the Bladeguard have iron halos AND storm shields, since iron halos traditionally conferred a 4++ via the conversion fields they're meant to project. Maybe iron halos are different now or they're just decorative pieces and not true traditional iron halos.

 

+1 to armor save also means there may be more Primaris units similar to the Bladeguard who are fulfilling Terminator-esque roles with their 2+ armor save. It also means a storm shield on anything with a natural 2+ can still take a 3+ armor save against AP -2 and the 4++ for anything stronger.

 

EDIT: Looks like Bladeguard iron halos are decorative, as per their leaked datasheet page. The "Bladeguard" Captain has a real iron halo for a 4++ and he has a "relic shield" instead of a storm shield. The relic shield does not provide a 4++ but improves his armor save by 1 and has a chance to ignore mortal wounds intead. Guess they didn't want three redundant pieces of wargear all providing a 4++ on the Captain, but it feels weird for the "upgraded" storm shield to lack the 4++ bonus.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I guess you can never has enough save and shrug even though you can only ever use one of each... obviously SM are collectors.

[CCE1981]

Note that until we see the FAQ or Errata that tells us otherwise the Codex Storm Shields are still only 3++.

 

However, if it is changed. Terminators with Storm Shields will have a 1+ save since the SAVE CHARACTERISTIC is improved by one. AP modifies the die roll, if you get a result less than one it becomes one. So if you get hit with plasma weapon at AP -3, you save that on 2+, ones always fail per rules, since 2 - 3 = -1 which becomes 1, therefore you made a 1+ save.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ll take 2+ versus AP3 any day.

[TiguriusX]

Note that until we see the FAQ or Errata that tells us otherwise the Codex Storm Shields are still only 3++.

 

However, if it is changed. Terminators with Storm Shields will have a 1+ save since the SAVE CHARACTERISTIC is improved by one. AP modifies the die roll, if you get a result less than one it becomes one. So if you get hit with plasma weapon at AP -3, you save that on 2+, ones always fail per rules, since 2 - 3 = -1 which becomes 1, therefore you made a 1+ save.

You uh...are doing AP wrong

 

1+ save modified by AP3 makes it 4+ save (makes it worse not better)

 

Roll 1 2 or 3 and fail (8th edition storm shield would be better with 3++)

[Dracos]

I strongly doubt that's the way it's going to work once the dust settles

[Medjugorje]

 

but stormshields will work different now. Its not a 3++ anymore. It will be a 4++ and +1 to the armor save.

That's very interesting. It's kind of weird how the Bladeguard have iron halos AND storm shields, since iron halos traditionally conferred a 4++ via the conversion fields they're meant to project. Maybe iron halos are different now or they're just decorative pieces and not true traditional iron halos.

 

+1 to armor save also means there may be more Primaris units similar to the Bladeguard who are fulfilling Terminator-esque roles with their 2+ armor save. It also means a storm shield on anything with a natural 2+ can still take a 3+ armor save against AP -2 and the 4++ for anything stronger.

 

EDIT: Looks like Bladeguard iron halos are decorative, as per their leaked datasheet page. The "Bladeguard" Captain has a real iron halo for a 4++ and he has a "relic shield" instead of a storm shield. The relic shield does not provide a 4++ but improves his armor save by 1 and has a chance to ignore mortal wounds intead. Guess they didn't want three redundant pieces of wargear all providing a 4++ on the Captain, but it feels weird for the "upgraded" storm shield to lack the 4++ bonus.

 

I think they (GW) dont care how you get your 4++. If the captain has no Iron halo he would have a 4++ because of the shield. You dont have to write down every single rule which would have the same efffect.

funny how complicated it seems for some people

[Hymnblade]

 

Note that until we see the FAQ or Errata that tells us otherwise the Codex Storm Shields are still only 3++.

 

However, if it is changed. Terminators with Storm Shields will have a 1+ save since the SAVE CHARACTERISTIC is improved by one. AP modifies the die roll, if you get a result less than one it becomes one. So if you get hit with plasma weapon at AP -3, you save that on 2+, ones always fail per rules, since 2 - 3 = -1 which becomes 1, therefore you made a 1+ save.

You uh...are doing AP wrong

 

1+ save modified by AP3 makes it 4+ save (makes it worse not better)

 

Roll 1 2 or 3 and fail (8th edition storm shield would be better with 3++)

On the contrary, the rules are quite clear: an unmodified 1 on a saving throw always fails, but a modified 1 does not auto-fail. Moreover, dice rolls cannot be modified below 1. Thus if you have a 1+ save, and you get shot by something with AP 3, and you roll a 2, that's an unmodified 2 (doesn't auto-fail) and a modified 1 (not below your save characteristic of 1+), so it passes.

 

This is an obviously pathological interaction, and almost certainly this will get FAQed quickly. But RAW, a 2+ save with a storm shield is functionally immune to AP.

 

(Why do we even have this "can't modify below 1" rule, anyway? I can't think of a situation where it matters except this pathological case.)