2 replies to this topic

[Alcyon]

This is my plan to build out from the Vanguard Start Collecting box. I have a lot of power armour and terminators in my meta, including Blood Angels, so I'm trying to capitalize on chapter tactics and stay back to shoot. I realize some of the selections are suboptimal, particularly the terminator HQs, but I have to make some concessions to the rule of cool.
 
Plan is for the Intercessors and Centurions to go into reserve with the Strike from the Shadows stratagem, with the Lieutenant and Chapter Master doing the same via Grav-Chute and Teleport respectively. Chaplain will join the Aggressors using Master of Ambush to get close in preparation for a turn 1 shoot and charge with the Suppressors positioned to stop Overwatch from the target unit - unless I'm going second, in which case they'll turtle up in a forward position. Eliminators and Infiltrators will set up on mid/back board objectives. 
 
Turn 2 the reserves will come on, Intercessors from the rear, Centurions against a threat, with the HQs landing wherever they need to grant re-rolls (either Centurions or Aggressors - I figure the snipers have their own buff and the Infiltrators don't do much damage anyway.)
 
My main concern is I'm very low on CP. I start with 4 and use 2 putting two squads into reserves. I would love to get some advice on whether the Centurions and Aggressors together might just be too expensive for 1500pt games, and whether I should just hold off on fielding both until I reach 2k and can run a double battalion. 
 
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Raven Guard) [47 PL, 5CP, 963pts] ++

+ Configuration [8CP] +
 
**Chapter Selection**: Inheritors of the Primarch, Raven Guard, Raven Guard Successor
 
Battle-forged CP [3CP]
 
Detachment CP [5CP]
 
+ HQ [9 PL, -1CP, 173pts] +
 
Chaplain in Terminator Armor [5 PL, -1CP, 92pts]: 5. Recitation of Focus, 6. Canticle of Hate, Benediction of Fury, Master of Ambush, Storm bolter [2pts], Stratagem: Master of Sanctity [-1CP], Warlord
 
Lieutenants in Phobos Armour [4 PL, 81pts]
. Lieutenant in Phobos Armour [4 PL, 81pts]
. . Occulus Bolt Carbine and Bolt Pistol [6pts]: Grav-chute [2pts], Master-crafted occulus bolt rifle [4pts]
 
+ Troops [20 PL, -2CP, 406pts] +
 
Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: Infiltrator Sergeant [22pts]
. 4x Infiltrator [88pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine
 
Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: Infiltrator Sergeant [22pts]
. 4x Infiltrator [88pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine
 
Intercessor Squad [10 PL, -2CP, 186pts]: Bolt rifle, Veteran Intercessors [-2CP]
. 9x Intercessor [153pts]: 9x Bolt pistol, 9x Frag & Krak grenades
. Intercessor Sergeant [33pts]: Thunder hammer [16pts]
 
+ Elites [10 PL, 222pts] +
 
Aggressor Squad [10 PL, 222pts]: 5x Aggressor [105pts], Aggressor Sergeant [21pts]
. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher [96pts]
 
+ Fast Attack [4 PL, 90pts] +
 
Suppressor Squad [4 PL, 90pts]
. 2x Suppressor [60pts]: 2x Accelerator autocannon [20pts], 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Grav-chute [4pts]
. Suppressor Sergeant [30pts]: Accelerator autocannon [10pts], Grav-chute [2pts]
 
+ Heavy Support [4 PL, 72pts] +
 
Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 72pts]
. Eliminator Sergeant [24pts]: Bolt sniper rifle [3pts], Camo cloak [3pts]
. 2x Eliminator with Bolt Sniper [48pts]: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Bolt sniper rifle [6pts], 2x Camo cloak [6pts], 2x Frag & Krak grenades
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Raven Guard) [26 PL, -1CP, 533pts] ++
 
+ Configuration [1CP] +
 
**Chapter Selection**: Inheritors of the Primarch, Raven Guard, Raven Guard Successor
 
Detachment CP [1CP]
 
+ HQ [6 PL, -2CP, 101pts] +
 
Chapter Master in Terminator Armor [6 PL, -2CP, 101pts]: Power sword [4pts], Storm bolter [2pts], Stratagem: Chapter Master [-2CP]
 
+ Heavy Support [20 PL, 432pts] +
 
Centurion Devastator Squad [12 PL, 240pts]
. Centurion [80pts]: Centurion missile launcher [20pts], Grav-cannon and grav-amp [20pts]
. Centurion [80pts]: Centurion missile launcher [20pts], Grav-cannon and grav-amp [20pts]
. Centurion Sergeant [80pts]: Centurion missile launcher [20pts], Grav-cannon and grav-amp [20pts]
 
Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 96pts]
. Eliminator Sergeant [24pts]: Bolt sniper rifle [3pts], Camo cloak [3pts]
. 2x Eliminator with Las Fusil [72pts]: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Camo cloak [6pts], 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Las Fusil [30pts]
 
Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 96pts]
. Eliminator Sergeant [24pts]: Bolt sniper rifle [3pts], Camo cloak [3pts]
. 2x Eliminator with Las Fusil [72pts]: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Camo cloak [6pts], 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Las Fusil [30pts

Edited by Alcyon, 17 June 2020 - 04:05 PM.

[Lukoi]

Man, I know you wanted me to chime in here because we have some similarities, but I've gotta say I'm just too new to the game to really be helpful probably (that and I'm only playing 2k matches currently).

 

I see the infils allow you to get some solid 12" area denial bubbles, 3+ saves, the option to use smoke -- all solid for board control.  And compared to similarly priced scouts, with 9" each, it comes down to lethality in each group (infils I think edging the melee attacks of combat knives scouts with the better shooting, with the mortals) vs total area denial (scouts).  Interesting tactical decision to make.  

 

Personally, I think you'll be wishing you had more CP very quickly - I might consider do you want to build around the cents from above, or the MoA Aggressors from turn 1 - and frankly the intercessors are awesome, but a whole other way to play.  I'd seriously consider dropping of the three main pillars here, given the 1500pts. Damned sexy for a 2k squad to run these three pillars imo (although I diverted from it after several matches). 

 

I'd like to have auspex scan, transhuman at least once for a list like yours, and potentially a couple of key rerolls (charges principally), so by my math you're a few short, but I might be overstating their value (although recently I pulled an auspex scan on an opponent that wanted to reinforce by my Aggressors -- just lovely all around), and it goes without saying you'd want Gravitic Amplification for the Cents if you keep all three pillars.

 

You're relying on the 2x2 Fusil shooters for the anti-tank...is that enough at 1500? I honestly don't know, but I realize that helps justify the intercessor squad, as your HQ support seems more about delivering rerolls, and durability, not chipping away at a big model. 

 

It looks like a heck of a fun list, and the more I look at it, I feel like there are four main priorities that you have to consider, and one doesn't make the cut -- Aggressors, Cents, Vet-Ints with TH, and having enough CP to do any of the three well on demand -- you can have all three, but their reliability goes down without CP support, or lose one and probably bump up the CP to help. 

 

If it were me, given what little I know, I'd drop the vet intercessor package, and probably split it into two units of 5 (one with or without TH).  That saves you a SftS CP, and 2xVet CP right off the bat.  Pretty big swing.   Also, I've been reading alot and coached that Chapter Master's added rerolls over HR1's is marginal at best for an improvement (i.e. a diminishing return), so maybe skimp points there? 

 

Lastly, if you're going to play successor, might as well take advantage of the one edge it brings you and consider Successor tactics outside of Inheritors. If you're going to keep Cents, and Termies, HfB might be a trait to offset their slowness a bit once they land.  Again, take my comments with the newbie grain of salt I'm delivering them with.  There are nuances to the game I am definitely yet to discover.

Edited by Lukoi, 17 June 2020 - 11:40 PM.

[Alcyon]

I've been thinking about the list a lot today and come to similar conclusions about the three pillars - it just seems like too much to try and cram into 1500pts. Maybe if I build it out to 2k I can fit it all in, but I think given the ratio of power armour to GEQ in my meta that the Centurions are more important than Aggressors. They also bring some anti-tank power with the missiles and even the grav when buffed. That means I don't need to worry about a Chaplain given my lack of close combat, and I don't even have to use Master of Ambush so I have a lot more Warlord Trait options I haven't even looked at.

 

Part of the reason I've got the Infiltrators is just that I pickup the Vanguard Start Collecting box and I'm building off that. I do think their abilities are solid for the points and will probably add some scouts if I run a double Battalion in future. 

 

The more I think about the Intercessors I think the Thunder Hammer might be a bad pick - they should be shooting and then charging into units that get beat up by a lot of S4 AP- hits, and if they have to charge into something that only the single TH can injure, it'll be a waste of most of them. I might just run the sergeant with a Power Sword and save the 12 points there. I am pretty attached to the idea of them as a squad at least until I play them in a few games.

 

Re: Successor Tactics, the other way I was considering going was Master Artisans and Stealthy, but I figured the -1 to hit while in cover would be huge for all the Eliminators and Infiltrators trying to stay alive and on objectives. I do have a lot of MSU going on though so it might be worth considering the tradeoff; those two units I mentioned do have Camo Cloaks and Smoke Grenades respectively so they might not need the buff that badly.

 

Here's a revamped list I was working on today:

• Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Raven Guard) [55 PL, 6CP, 1,111pts]
  • Configuration [8CP]
    • **Chapter Selection**

      Selections: Master Artisans, Raven Guard Successor, Stealthy

    • Battle-forged CP [3CP]
    • Detachment CP [5CP]
  • HQ [10 PL, 182pts]
    • Captain in Terminator Armor [6 PL, 101pts]

      Selections: Power sword [4pts], Storm bolter [2pts], Storm of Fire, Warlord

    • Lieutenants in Phobos Armour [4 PL, 81pts]
      • Lieutenant in Phobos Armour [4 PL, 81pts]
        • Occulus Bolt Carbine and Bolt Pistol [6pts]

          Selections: Grav-chute [2pts], Master-crafted occulus bolt rifle [4pts]

  • Troops [20 PL, -2CP, 394pts]
    • Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]

      Selections: Infiltrator Sergeant [22pts]

      • 4x Infiltrator [88pts]

        Selections: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine

    • Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]

      Selections: Infiltrator Sergeant [22pts]

      • 4x Infiltrator [88pts]

        Selections: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine

    • Intercessor Squad [10 PL, -2CP, 174pts]

      Selections: Bolt rifle, Veteran Intercessors [-2CP]

      • 9x Intercessor [153pts]

        Selections: 9x Bolt pistol, 9x Frag & Krak grenades

      • Intercessor Sergeant [21pts]

        Selections: Power sword [4pts]

  • Elites [6 PL, 131pts]
    • Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]

      Selections: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher [4pts], Heavy bolter [10pts], Incendium cannon [15pts], 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber [12pts]

  • Fast Attack [7 PL, 164pts]
    • Scout Bike Squad [3 PL, 74pts]
      • 2x Scout Biker [46pts]

        Selections: 2x Astartes shotgun, 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Combat knife, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Twin boltgun [4pts]

      • Scout Biker Sergeant [28pts]

        Selections: Power axe [5pts], Twin boltgun [2pts]

    • Suppressor Squad [4 PL, 90pts]
      • 2x Suppressor [60pts]

        Selections: 2x Accelerator autocannon [20pts], 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Grav-chute [4pts]

      • Suppressor Sergeant [30pts]

        Selections: Accelerator autocannon [10pts], Grav-chute [2pts]

  • Heavy Support [12 PL, 240pts]
    • Centurion Devastator Squad [12 PL, 240pts]
      • Centurion [80pts]

        Selections: Centurion missile launcher [20pts], Grav-cannon and grav-amp [20pts]

      • Centurion [80pts]

        Selections: Centurion missile launcher [20pts], Grav-cannon and grav-amp [20pts]

      • Centurion Sergeant [80pts]

        Selections: Centurion missile launcher [20pts], Grav-cannon and grav-amp [20pts]

• Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Raven Guard) [17 PL, 1CP, 387pts]
  • Configuration [1CP]
    • **Chapter Selection**

      Selections: Master Artisans, Raven Guard Successor, Stealthy

    • Detachment CP [1CP]
  • HQ [5 PL, 99pts]
    • Captain in Phobos Armour [5 PL, 99pts]

      Selections: Camo cloak [3pts], Master-crafted instigator bolt carbine [6pts]

  • Heavy Support [12 PL, 288pts]
    • Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 96pts]
      • Eliminator Sergeant [24pts]

        Selections: Bolt sniper rifle [3pts], Camo cloak [3pts]

      • 2x Eliminator with Las Fusil [72pts]

        Selections: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Camo cloak [6pts], 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Las Fusil [30pts]

    • Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 96pts]
      • Eliminator Sergeant [24pts]

        Selections: Bolt sniper rifle [3pts], Camo cloak [3pts]

      • 2x Eliminator with Las Fusil [72pts]

        Selections: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Camo cloak [6pts], 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Las Fusil [30pts]

    • Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 96pts]
      • Eliminator Sergeant [24pts]

        Selections: Bolt sniper rifle [3pts], Camo cloak [3pts]

      • 2x Eliminator with Las Fusil [72pts]

        Selections: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Camo cloak [6pts], 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Las Fusil [30pts]

 

The first list did actually have 3 squads of Eliminators with 2 Las Fusil each for a total of 6, I figured that would be enough anti-tank with the fixed 3 damage. I stripped out the Aggressors package and still had a lot of points left over, so I added in some Scout Bikes which put out a lot of bolter fire to help replace them against hordes. I also added in an Invictor because I'm a bit concerned about not having enough on the board turn 1 to deal serious damage in case I get first turn, and I don't want to leave the Infiltrators out to dry with no support. This list leaves me with 6 CP (4 after SftS for two units) and more stuff on the board early on.

It still doesn't quite seem like enough, so I'm going to take a look at a double Battalion tomorrow too. One major thing MoA does is give you that option to move units without Concealed Positions up the board without spending CP, so Aggressors + either the Intercessors or Centurions might be a better option too.