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Looking for assistance vs filthy Heretics

- - - - - Competitive Heretic Astartes Demons of the Warp

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#1
Lukoi

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So, I am extremely new to 40k as a player, but I find it extremely entertaining, and the theorycrafting of various lists and situations provides endless things to discuss, and learn.

That being said, I've gotten some games in via TTS and while I fully expect to lose most or all of them against my much more experienced opponents, I seem to be struggling the most against Chaos and Heretic mixed units the most. Like tabled in 2 turns kind of struggling, so I'm here looking for guidance from the more experienced among you.

Its 2k, ITC rules for every match. Now my two recent beat downs, I admittedly made big mistakes in regards to placement of my anti psyker assets, so that's on me, and I know how to do that better for the future. And in both cases, one against Alpha Legion+ possessed bomb/demon support, the other vs Thousand Sons + Lord of Change/Tzaandon/demon support, I basically elected to go second and deployed too conservatively. Also all on me. But I dont think going second should he a death sentence for RG.

So, my issues weren't so much with the psychic, mortal wound slinging, as it was the invluns. Invulns everywhere. Between the spell buffs, movement tricks, and in the case of Rubric marines, just the -2 AP bolsters there was admittedly enough to deal with, but ultimately it was firing fruitlessly at targets that in almost all cases had 3+ or 4+ invulns to keep them out of trouble.

How do you deal with Armies that simply drive forward relying on these magically enhanced invulns to be durable?

I'm positive, there is something probably blatantly obvious that I'm overlooking here in target prioritization, or something.

Any help appreciated.
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#2
Ultramarine vet

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It seems like the simple answer might actually be the weapons at your disposal. I haven't played against thousand sons really in 8th edition, but they do have crazy invulnerable saves. I would get around this problem by giving them way too many saves. For you, I would forget about expensive weapons like plasma, melta, grav, etc. Whether you're into primaris or not, both ranges have units that can dish out a ton of wounds. I would think about centurions with heavy bolters and hurricane bolters, or aggressors for primaris. The opponent has 3+ invulnerable saves? Cool. Go ahead and roll 30 of those for me. 😂 Also, I would also think about bringing a chaplain with Catachism of Fire. The buffed unit would have to target the closest enemy unit to get this, but you would get a +1 to wound. So 3 centurions with hurricane bolters would be wounding on 3+ with 36 shots. Assuming you're shooting at T4 chaos marines, that is. Have a captain and lieutenant near, and they should honestly wipe a unit with just too many wounds. It's all about the saturation here.

Overall, you wanna keep your units cheap, but also able to deal damage and not be ignored. Just to help us a little, what are a few units you tried to field? You are fielding a very strong chapter in the Raven Guard. I know you'll be able to find success with them. I love those guys. Lol.

Edited by Ultramarine vet, 19 June 2020 - 04:28 PM.

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Be vigilant, the taint of chaos is always near. There is no mercy for the weak and treacherous.


#3
Lukoi

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Fair point, and yes to catechism of fire. After last nights loss, I changed one of my master of sanctity litanies to that to aid my aggressors.

My list is designed for take all comers type tournament circumstances where you can really only tweak relics and minor changes like that between matches.

Smash captain with Shadowmaster to deny OW
Jump pack Chaplain with swift and deadly, and canticle of hate (charge bonus) as his other commonly used litany.
Primaris LT with the ex tenebris rifle relic
Primaris CPT to buff shooters and reliquary of Gathalamor to hamper psykers

3 x 5 intercessor with power swords
2 x 5 bolter scouts
1 x sniper scout

6 Aggressors with boltstorms
Invictor with Incendium, and a second with autocannon
Relic contemptor dread with twin Las for AT

2 Attack bikes
2 Suppressor teams

2 x 3 Eliminators, sniper type
TFC

So, you're basically saying spam the preferred target with dice to wear out the invulns with probability. Am I concurrently trying to Elim snipe a key magic user character? Like look for a buff giver and try to kill it? Just seems like I dont necessarily have enough shots to burn one of those guys down with the snipers as it is.

Definitely appreciate the feedback here, feel free to pile on.

Edited by Lukoi, 19 June 2020 - 04:37 PM.

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#4
Alcyon

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You could always try a Librarian with Null Zone; warp charge 7 isn't the easiest thing to get off but it denies invulnerable saves. Particularly good against marines etc. if you have AP -3/4 weapons but could be the thing you need during turn 2 with Tactical Doctrine online to let you overwhelm a heavy unit with weight of fire.


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#5
Dracos

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Petty much quantity of shots is your most dependable answer. It's not heroic enough for fluff players but Libbies are notoriously unreliable and about the worst character choice for their cost imo.

 

I use 5 Bolter Inceptors instead of Suppressors. They are tougher and have more shots, but buff them with the Chaplain them Master of Ambush them and use Infiltrate if needed and delete the best sorcerer that isn't properly screened. Rinse wash repeat until they are dead. Less effective with Suppresors because smaller unit size (which is dumb, they arent Eliminators for God sake, but no one asked me) are less effective but I'd MoA one on your case and Deep Strike the second one with your list.

 

3 units of Eliminators.

I'd say always in 8e. 9e? Probably still but the Eradicators might tempt me to make a Spearhead of them.

 

Aggressors in reserve deep strike. Thats why we take Phobos/Scout units. Guarantee Aggressors a staging area. Ppoint at Chaff (Rubics ;)) then take the Sorcerer out with Stalker Bolt Rifles.

 

Start planning for Turn 3


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9e
Raven Guard : 6 - 1
Imperial Knights : 3 - 2


#6
Ultramarine vet

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Fair point, and yes to catechism of fire. After last nights loss, I changed one of my master of sanctity litanies to that to aid my aggressors.
My list is designed for take all comers type tournament circumstances where you can really only tweak relics and minor changes like that between matches.
Smash captain with Shadowmaster to deny OW
Jump pack Chaplain with swift and deadly, and canticle of hate (charge bonus) as his other commonly used litany.
Primaris LT with the ex tenebris rifle relic
Primaris CPT to buff shooters and reliquary of Gathalamor to hamper psykers
3 x 5 intercessor with power swords
2 x 5 bolter scouts
1 x sniper scout
6 Aggressors with boltstorms
Invictor with Incendium, and a second with autocannon
Relic contemptor dread with twin Las for AT
2 Attack bikes
2 Suppressor teams
2 x 3 Eliminators, sniper type
TFC
So, you're basically saying spam the preferred target with dice to wear out the invulns with probability. Am I concurrently trying to Elim snipe a key magic user character? Like look for a buff giver and try to kill it? Just seems like I dont necessarily have enough shots to burn one of those guys down with the snipers as it is.
Definitely appreciate the feedback here, feel free to pile on.


Yes, spam them with wounds! Eliminating characters is a fairly tricky thing to pull off. If I was to try it, eliminators are decent. But also as Dracos mentioned, you can take out a character with stalker bolt rifles via the target sighted stratagem.

For your aggressors, you could give them recitation of focus and Catachism of fire. 6 of them is a great opportunity for a lot of buffs. So they would hit on 2s, re-rolling 1s, and then wound on 3s re-rolling 1s. There really isn't a T4 space marine unit that can endure that. I also like sternguard veterans and lots of heavy bolters. Very good for helping add on wounds. I do play a lot of Imperial Fists admittedly, but I think those can still work for other chapters.

I like the take all comers lists, and your list can definitely work with that.
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Be vigilant, the taint of chaos is always near. There is no mercy for the weak and treacherous.


#7
Lukoi

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This is all great feedback folks and I appreciate it. 

 

While I know bringing a librarian seems attractive here, I'm just not sold on it, given how conditions based it is, and secondly because it's still only going to bring one deny at best. Additionally, null zone has a 6" bubble...you have to be right in the thick of it to use it effectively.  As an RG, I just don't see castling up as the best option here, which means getting the librarian to the right spot consistently is a challenging, and he's at more risk.  I can see why it's great for a more castle-centric chapter though.

 

So, denies maybe 50/50 odds to beat (probably technically slightly worse given most manifests are in the 5-7 range it seems), a small and risky null zone bubble, and a 50% chance to manifest it -- optimal conditions, that's 3 turns and if it's not the key three turns, or I don't manage to have the libby in the right spot -- it's just too conditional in my book I think.  Also, assuming I'm understanding the librarian rules correctly, I lose out on the opportunity to take any of the umbrancy abilities that have some cool utility, like shadowstep - I'd be locked into Librarius.

 

I'm taking a hard look at potentially making one of my  intercessors into the stalker bolt rifles mentioned above.  I'm concerned though that Target Sighted at 3CP is gonna be hard to justify -- an average of one auto mortal wound, and five shots is effectively like adding 1 more eliminator squad.   Not sure it's worthwhile.  

 

I like the inceptor idea (love the look of the models too, and have a three pack) but at 205pts for five that wipes out the suppressor option at all, and I feel like it reduces my ability to take on knights, or tank-laden marines, or Army's with alot of AP needed to knock them back a peg.  It is a sexy idea though.  Guess that's the value of trying this stuff out digitally first before ya buy and paint the kit, lol.

 

Thanks fellas.


Edited by Lukoi, 20 June 2020 - 02:06 AM.


#8
Dracos

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Couple things

 

 

Stalkers are good for two things. Guarding your deployment zone objective and plinking a few wounds off of anything Eliminators, Aggressors, and Inceptors couldn't finish. I wouldn't waste CP on that strat unless it was very specific situation. I do use Stalkers 36" range to force opposition to make decisions though. Had a unit in a shoot out against Eldar Rangers once. Long Range Marksmen gave me the edge to make him move off the Objective to engage while I accumulated VP with mine. Niche situation but the D2 AP2 takes people by surprise sometimes.

 

An Inceptor's Assault Bolter is S5. A Suppressor's Autocannon is S7. A Knight is T8. Therefore both weapons will wound the Knight on a 5+. For anything T8 or above the two weapons are identically effective. Even have the same AP. Suppressor has the advantage of range but that's it. Inceptor's have potential to do more wounds due to number of shots. Your not wrong though they aren't cheap but they're worth it if used correctly.


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9e
Raven Guard : 6 - 1
Imperial Knights : 3 - 2


#9
Ultramarine vet

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I do agree with Dracos actually with the target sighted stratagem. I just test rolled for 5 and even 10 intercessors with stalker bolt rifles about 10 times, and they didn't do enough damage for 3 CP. I think that is far too much of a CP cost in my opinion. Although, I did test it against a 3++ save character. Does next to nothing. If it's 4++ save, then they can possibly take em out.

I have never run suppressors, but their weapons and the ability they possess does look quite strong.

Edited by Ultramarine vet, 20 June 2020 - 07:20 AM.

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Be vigilant, the taint of chaos is always near. There is no mercy for the weak and treacherous.


#10
Lukoi

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Couple things

 

 

Stalkers are good for two things. Guarding your deployment zone objective and plinking a few wounds off of anything Eliminators, Aggressors, and Inceptors couldn't finish. I wouldn't waste CP on that strat unless it was very specific situation. I do use Stalkers 36" range to force opposition to make decisions though. Had a unit in a shoot out against Eldar Rangers once. Long Range Marksmen gave me the edge to make him move off the Objective to engage while I accumulated VP with mine. Niche situation but the D2 AP2 takes people by surprise sometimes.

 

An Inceptor's Assault Bolter is S5. A Suppressor's Autocannon is S7. A Knight is T8. Therefore both weapons will wound the Knight on a 5+. For anything T8 or above the two weapons are identically effective. Even have the same AP. Suppressor has the advantage of range but that's it. Inceptor's have potential to do more wounds due to number of shots. Your not wrong though they aren't cheap but they're worth it if used correctly.

 

 

Fair point on all, but 30" of extra range is why I'm using them.  I'll keep tinkering though.  I'm liking the stalker bolt idea more and more though (though admittedly not the strat).


Edited by Lukoi, 20 June 2020 - 02:42 PM.


#11
Dracos

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Mmm maybe we are miscommunicating?

Auto Boltrifle 24”
Rapid-fire Boltrifle 30”
Stalker Boltrifle 36”

In 8e I liked they had same stat line almost as Eliminator Sniper Boltrifle. Used them as supporting fire unit with Eliminators most the time. They were almost always my last choice to fire. I like working my firing from short range first and work my way out to the longest range units. They would plink wounds off anything the remained after the Aggressors, Inceptors and Eliminators had went to work.
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9e
Raven Guard : 6 - 1
Imperial Knights : 3 - 2


#12
Lukoi

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Sorry, I wasn't being clear.  I was referring to the 18" assault bolter range of the Inceptors and the 48" range of the suppressor autocannons.



#13
Dracos

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Copy that and true. So many folks just look at the math and not how the army fits in the game plan as a whole. I take Aggressors over Centurions partially because they aren’t Primaris but at least as much because I can squish more units the table. I have a threat overload mentality with small lethal units as possible. That’s not everyone’s cup of tea. Doesn’t make one better than the other if the commander of each style is good at piloting the army. Then it’s dice rolls baby :)
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9e
Raven Guard : 6 - 1
Imperial Knights : 3 - 2


#14
Lukoi

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Yup! And while it's late, I think I can get online and squeeze out a practice match with these tweaks tonight.  Wish me luck :P


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#15
MajorNese

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I've long been a quite vocal fan of the Inceptors.

They lay down a ridiculous amount of fire, and are not at all comparable to a few autocannon shots. Slight AP is enough to overload saves (which was the issue you had with invuls), and the lack of range is compensated by their good movement - so it's rather 28" (without advancing) of effective threat range, not 48" (suppressors, not moving to prevent penalty). T5 and higher wound count keeps them alive for way longer than suppressors, and the overwatch (especially with chapter master nearby) is considerable. If you want to counter-deploy, they can also deep strike - and boltering a character in the back on turn 2 is quite guaranteed to kill anything that isn't a primarch, due to RG buff to hit and wound.

 

Since TTS doesn't require you to buy and paint those dudes, it might be worth a try.


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#16
Lukoi

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I've long been a quite vocal fan of the Inceptors.

They lay down a ridiculous amount of fire, and are not at all comparable to a few autocannon shots. Slight AP is enough to overload saves (which was the issue you had with invuls), and the lack of range is compensated by their good movement - so it's rather 28" (without advancing) of effective threat range, not 48" (suppressors, not moving to prevent penalty). T5 and higher wound count keeps them alive for way longer than suppressors, and the overwatch (especially with chapter master nearby) is considerable. If you want to counter-deploy, they can also deep strike - and boltering a character in the back on turn 2 is quite guaranteed to kill anything that isn't a primarch, due to RG buff to hit and wound.

 

Since TTS doesn't require you to buy and paint those dudes, it might be worth a try.

 

Admittedly, they are basically flying Aggressors lol.  Yea I'll take a look. Perhaps drop an aggressor from the 6-pack, and the two suppressor squads to try a full pack of intercessors for a match or two.  At least I'm not at the stage of painting these particular guys yet lol.



#17
Dracos

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Flying Aggressors ... mmmmm. The day they release Assault Inceptors will be the day my dream army build becomes a reality. Just double up G-man's boltstorm gauntlet double power fist punchy grav armor goodness with jump packs.

 

*sigh* ... maybe someday. smile.png

 

 

 

 

 

editG-man is my personal tern for the Gravis Captain


Edited by Dracos, 21 June 2020 - 04:18 PM.

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9e
Raven Guard : 6 - 1
Imperial Knights : 3 - 2


#18
MajorNese

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Admittedly, they are basically flying Aggressors lol.  Yea I'll take a look. Perhaps drop an aggressor from the 6-pack, and the two suppressor squads to try a full pack of intercessors for a match or two.  At least I'm not at the stage of painting these particular guys yet lol.

Intercessors or Inceptors, what are you going to try? Primaris names are too similar to each other. biggrin.png

 

And I definitely prefer Inceptors over Aggressors. Those guys have low range and movement, but hit hard in CC. Inceptors move anywhere they need, but are useless in CC other than contributing some more attacks, a MW or two, and staying safe from getting shot. Combine Inceptors with Shrike, and they become a highly mobile wrecking ball with all the buffs (to-hit reroll compensating advancing's -1, charge reroll, strat to advance+charge) and an actual CC threat mixed inbetween.


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#19
Lukoi

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I ended up fitting in a 5-man Inceptor squad by dropping the suppressor teams, reducing scout snipers to scouts, and taking away aux grenade launchers/power swords from my intercessors.  Hoping to catch a match with it tonight to test it out, should be fun.  Paired with the smash-captain, and a canticle of hate chaplain, it should be interesting.



#20
Dracos

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I just received 6 Dark Imperium Inceptors I got for "cheap" on eBay. I'll be building a second unit of 5 Bolter Inceptors this week after I finish the base on my Phobos Apothecary ;)

 

I've also decided to sell/trade my 10 Boltstorm Aggressors (sorry guys),  and going to use the value to pick up 10 Firestorm Aggressors. 

 

I've decided to make 2 units each of the Eliminators, Infiltrators, Aggressors and Inceptors the Core of my 9e army. Anything else will be to support these units mission objectives. 


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9e
Raven Guard : 6 - 1
Imperial Knights : 3 - 2


#21
Lukoi

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I've also decided to sell/trade my 10 Boltstorm Aggressors (sorry guys),  and going to use the value to pick up 10 Firestorm Aggressors. 

 

 

 

I can definitely see the fun factor appeal in this, but personally after looking over the #'s, I'm not willing to sacrifice the range.  2d6 flamer shots auto hitting being an average of 7 hits vs 3.96 hits from the auto bolter + 2.31 frag grenade hits make them pretty close (7 vs 6.27).  You're trading the range for surety (because obviously the latter auto bolters can be hampered by a -1HR buff to the target for example, but that still comes out to 3 hits, and 1.75hits).  You lose the value of three quarters of a wound due to a potential buff that's not something you necessarily see all that often, in trading 10" of potential range.

 

While you can offset it by going LRM as a successor trait (assuming not a straight up RG player, in which case I think it's even worse of an idea to do), that means you lose out on taking something helpful like stealthy, HfB etc in it's stead.  Of course, if you're taking LRM anyway, and not specifically for the Aggressors, then it all works out in the wash anyway and the flamers become preferable in many ways.

 

That being said, I admit, your chances on OW are MUCH higher than the statistical 1 auto bolter hit/0.5 hits of the FGL in that scenario, but given how I'm employing them, I'm not relying on OW very often and definitely want to make it a threat, but not what I'm building the list around.  


Edited by Lukoi, 22 June 2020 - 10:26 PM.


#22
Lukoi

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Well after trying it out, I find myself all too often trying to deepstrike into spots to hit harder targets, and even when they have screens, the Aggressors take care of them.  So, I've returned to the Suppressors over the Inceptors (making my intercessors/scouts a little stronger in the process, and keeping two bikes for uber-cheap engineers), and I'm going to try and find a game against some more heretics to conduct more proof of principal here.

 

Too offset things, I've upgraded the smash captain (who they typically land near) to a Chapter Master to hopefully, more effectively offset the -1 to heavy on the round they land.  Properly positioned, with their range, I've not needed them to move often in turns 3 onward, and starting the on table they work well near my shooting cluster (which has my Lieutenant, so reroll WR1's).

 

Thanks again all!


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#23
Lukoi

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Update:

 

Thanks again for all of the advice folks - I finally got to play against a Tsons list (Cult of Time?) with some terminators that he kept healing, psykers that spammed psykers, and just a knock down drag out fight that went three rounds before concession.  He's just as new to the game as I am, so we had some good conversation afterwards about what we could have both done better (he didn't really force me to make too many decisions on where to fire, and I made several positioning mistakes that his demon prince was able to fly in and take advantage of, but it was a great match.  18-5 win, and the hero of the battle was definitely shared by the poor apothecary I have lugging the Reliquary of Gathalamor around.  Opponent took several bits of damage due to failed manifestation and that had him second guessing where to put key psykers.  It also hurt his ability (a little, not alot) in using Time Flux to regenerate termies.  I literally had a squad knocked down to JUST the scarab.....and between that one and other psykers he nearly respawned all 6 slain terminators.  Scary stuff.


Edited by Lukoi, 02 July 2020 - 05:29 AM.

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