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"10 Facts About the Imperial Fists"

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#1
Fulkes

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Nicked from Facebook, thought people who are less familiar with some of the lore might enjoy this as well:

 

++10 Facts about the Imperial Fists++
 
1 - The Imperial Fists were given their name by the Emperor himself. ('The Horus Heresy: Book Three - Extermination')
 
2 - The first time the Bell of Lost Souls tolled it was for the Imperial Fists in recognition of their sacrifice during the Unheard War. ('The Horus Heresy: Book Three - Extermination')
 
3 - During the Horus Heresy the Imperial Fists were tasked with transforming the Emperor's Palace on Terra into an impenetrable fortress-bastion. The construction of the Palace itself took two centuries to complete. The Imperial Fists reshaped it in less than one-twentieth of the time. ('Master of Mankind' by Aaron Demsbki Bowden)
 
4 - Of all the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes, the Imperial Fists are the only Chapter that frequently return to Terra, which is officially recorded as the Chapter’s home world. To the Imperial Fists this is true only whilst Phalanx lies in orbit above the Throneworld. ('Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion' by Chris Wraight, Codex Supplement: Imperial Fists)
 
5 - Only two non-Primarch, non-humans have held the rank of Lord Commander of the Imperium before the role was suspended. Both were Chapter Masters of the Imperial Fists. (The Beast Arises)
 
6 - One of those two, Lord Commander Koorland, created the Deathwatch to combat the Ork threat during the War of the Beast. The other, Lord Commander Maximus Thane, was the catalyst for the 4th Founding. (The Beast Arises)
 
7 - Chapter Master Vladimir Pugh of the Imperial Fists was once offered a seat on the council of Terra but humbly refused the honor. ('Sentinels of Terra')
 
8 - Phalanx, the fortress-monastery of the Imperial Fists, is the single largest warp capable object in all of the Imperium. (The Beast Arises, Warhammer-Community, 'Sentinels of Terra')
 
9 - In the millennia since the Horus Heresy, dozens of Space Marine Chapters have been founded from the gene-seed of the Imperial Fists, perhaps more than from any other Chapter save only the Ultramarines. ('Codex: Space Marines 8th Ed')
 
10 - Imperial Fists do not recruit from a single world as many Space Marine Chapters do, instead the Imperial Fists recruit from a variety of worlds. As such, the Chapter maintains a great number of Fortress-Chapels on worlds across the Imperium staffed by small, dedicated cadres of veterans. During the days of the Great Crusade all of the Legions recruited from across the galaxy, by necessity as much as any other reason, but the imperial Fists did so with a hungry zeal rivaled perhaps only by Lord Guilliman's Ultramarines or Lorgar's Word Bearers. While other Legions might draw heavily from a single world, the Imperial Fists drew from many, a practice that has continued to this day. ('The Horus Heresy: Book Three - Extermination', 'Deathwatch: Rites of Battle')

 


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#2
Gederas

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All of these are interesting but one is...

8 - Phalanx, the fortress-monastery of the Imperial Fists, is the single largest warp capable object in all of the Imperium. (The Beast Arises, Warhammer-Community, 'Sentinels of Terra')

I think that's kind of incorrect. As The Rock exists and is stated to be bigger than Phalanx.


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#3
Fulkes

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All of these are interesting but one is...

8 - Phalanx, the fortress-monastery of the Imperial Fists, is the single largest warp capable object in all of the Imperium. (The Beast Arises, Warhammer-Community, 'Sentinels of Terra')

I think that's kind of incorrect. As The Rock exists and is stated to be bigger than Phalanx.

Canon conflicts aren't uncommon. Different sources claim different stuff all the time.


 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#4
Gederas

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All of these are interesting but one is...

8 - Phalanx, the fortress-monastery of the Imperial Fists, is the single largest warp capable object in all of the Imperium. (The Beast Arises, Warhammer-Community, 'Sentinels of Terra')

I think that's kind of incorrect. As The Rock exists and is stated to be bigger than Phalanx.
Canon conflicts aren't uncommon. Different sources claim different stuff all the time.
I doubt I'm the only one- in-game and out- to declare, "To hell with the Dark Angels!"

The Lion's degenerate sons may be lying. They may not be, but as the paranoid lunatics are unlikely to let any third party MEASURE the Rock's mass and its three dimensions, who'll be able to tell?

Phalanx has been consistently stated to be the "size of a small moon", and was shown to be that size in the BFG2 game. The Rock is described as being a continent.

 

Lemme break this down for you boyo:

 

A "small moon" is the size of Phobos/Deimos, which are 14/7.75mi wide, respectively (and that's the smallest a moon is before it's considered a "moonlet"), up to Rhea, which is 474.6mi wide.

 

Now: The smallest continent is Australia, which is wider in both North/South AND East/West (2,500mi East/West, 2,290mi North/South) than Luna (2,158.8mi diameter), which is considered to be a very large moon.

 

Ergo: Anything described as "continent sized" is by definition larger than a "small moon". Meaning, the Rock is likely at least TRIPLE the size of Phalanx if it's in the average size of a small moon.

 

Now, this can be explained as Phalanx being a designed as a warp-capable spacecraft/battlestation and the Rock is... Well, a chunk of a planet with Warp Drives stuck to it laugh.png

 

tongue.png


Edited by Gederas, 25 June 2020 - 02:17 PM.


#5
Fulkes

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The Rock isn't a space craft, it's Space Marines channeling Big Mek energy.


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#6
MegaVolt87

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Nevermind, I checked I am mistaken. 


Edited by MegaVolt87, 25 June 2020 - 09:46 PM.

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#7
War Angel

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This also assumes that other planets don’t have smaller continents. “By definition” doesn’t work when we open the door to other possibilities.

Also, who says the rock is continent sized? Dark Angels?


Thought of the day: Suffer not the lies of the traitor.

Edited by War Angel, 27 June 2020 - 04:53 AM.

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#8
Bjorn Firewalker

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Thought of the day: Suffer not the lies of the traitor.


Well said. (Bathes Black Legionnaires and Dark Angels alike in burning promethium, and showers them with heavy boltshells.)

Edited by Bjorn Firewalker, 30 June 2020 - 08:04 PM.

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#9
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A thing to consider, as well, is that the Rock is basically planetary crust that was ejected into space when Caliban went boom that the Chapter fortress just to happen to be on.

 

It was then turned into a giant space-worthy installation. How much of that continent-sized planet-chunk is fully utilized and how much of it is just solid planet-matter?

 

The Phalanx, on the other hand, is an entirely man-made structure.


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#10
Lord_Caerolion

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A thing to consider, as well, is that the Rock is basically planetary crust that was ejected into space when Caliban went boom that the Chapter fortress just to happen to be on.

 

It was then turned into a giant space-worthy installation. How much of that continent-sized planet-chunk is fully utilized and how much of it is just solid planet-matter?

 

The Phalanx, on the other hand, is an entirely man-made structure.

 

That's my interpretation too. The Rock is a Fortress Monastery with engines bolted on, attached to a decent chunk of, well, rock. Sure, it's a Legion-size Fortress Monastery, and has expanded down into the crust underneath it, but it's still a building on chunks of rock in space.

 

The Phalanx is a purposely-designed space-faring vessel, making full use of the entirety of its mass.


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#11
Bjorn Firewalker

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A thing to consider, as well, is that the Rock is basically planetary crust that was ejected into space when Caliban went boom that the Chapter fortress just to happen to be on.

It was then turned into a giant space-worthy installation. How much of that continent-sized planet-chunk is fully utilized and how much of it is just solid planet-matter?

The Phalanx, on the other hand, is an entirely man-made structure.


That's my interpretation too. The Rock is a Fortress Monastery with engines bolted on, attached to a decent chunk of, well, rock. Sure, it's a Legion-size Fortress Monastery, and has expanded down into the crust underneath it, but it's still a building on chunks of rock in space.

The Phalanx is a purposely-designed space-faring vessel, making full use of the entirety of its mass.
Well said. As Fulkes stated, the Rock was the result of Lion's degenerate sons employing the technology and/or Warpcraft of the foul Orks- such recklessness would explain a lot about the Dark Angels and their successors' behavior.

Ork Warboss (wearing armor painted in pre-Heresy Dark Angels colors): "Baby bro!"

Azrael (shooting at the Warboss): "You are not my brother!"

Ork Warboss (laughing as boltshells ricochet off his armor): "Don' be shy, baby bro! We all serve da will o' Gork or Mork!"
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#12
Gederas

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You know Bjorn... I'd really love to live in your world. It seems interesting to say the least....

 

 

A thing to consider, as well, is that the Rock is basically planetary crust that was ejected into space when Caliban went boom that the Chapter fortress just to happen to be on.

 

It was then turned into a giant space-worthy installation. How much of that continent-sized planet-chunk is fully utilized and how much of it is just solid planet-matter?

 

The Phalanx, on the other hand, is an entirely man-made structure.

That's my interpretation too. The Rock is a Fortress Monastery with engines bolted on, attached to a decent chunk of, well, rock. Sure, it's a Legion-size Fortress Monastery, and has expanded down into the crust underneath it, but it's still a building on chunks of rock in space.

 

The Phalanx is a purposely-designed space-faring vessel, making full use of the entirety of its mass.

I mean, I never said the Rock was better than the Phalanx as a space vessel, only that by the strictest definitions we can go by in regards to their sizes (Phalanx: small moon, The Rock: Continent), the Rock is bigger laugh.png

 

Bjorn's the one who came in with the name-calling roleplay.

 

Also by the way Bjorn: The word you were thinking of is "bathes" not "baths" :P


Edited by Gederas, 30 June 2020 - 03:13 AM.


#13
War Angel

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Except fluff says the phalanx is the biggest. So the fluff stating ones a small moon and the other a small continent is written without proper knowledge of the sizes of these things, or, because much more of the galaxy is explored in 38,000 years, the size of a “small moon” is larger than a “small continent”

Take your dark angel lies to your own post.
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#14
Gederas

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Except fluff says the phalanx is the biggest. So the fluff stating ones a small moon and the other a small continent is written without proper knowledge of the sizes of these things, or, because much more of the galaxy is explored in 38,000 years, the size of a “small moon” is larger than a “small continent”

"Phalanx itself is gigantic, the largest starship known to have been constructed by human hands, and something of its magnitude has not been seen since the Age of Technology. The size of a small moon or large asteroid, its foredeck can dock a dozen Imperial Navy cruisers around its circumference."

 

"The only thing that remained of the Dark Angels' former homeworld was a large chunk of stone the size of a large asteroid."

 

TL;DR: They're both described with euphemisms stating the same size, ergo, they're at the least the same size.

 

The real issue is that GW has never produced official artwork that shows the scale of the Phalanx, whereas they have with The Rock.

 

Also: Phalanx is stated the biggest purposely built spacecraft.


Edited by Gederas, 01 July 2020 - 01:54 AM.

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#15
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Yup, that’s solid enough information for me to confirm my suspicions....
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#16
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Are the wordings of the initial ten facts verbatim from their respective sources? I have the various codices and Forge World books, but none of the Black Library books (don't judge me whistlingW.gif ).

The debate about the comparative size of the Phalanx and Rock has been based on some false premises. While Australia is the smallest of the seven common continents here on Terra, it doesn't present the criteria for the smallest possible size of a continent, and might present only a geographer's definition. However, a geologist might allow for much smaller bodies of land, such as Madagascar, to be a continent. Ultimately, if we accept that the hyperbole about the Phalanx is about it being man-made whereas the Rock was an accident (or was it?), then the debate is about semantics. One might be larger than the other. Or maybe they're the same size. Do we really think that the various authors of the material have consulted official definitions and criteria when composing their descriptions? Does the comparative size really matter? They're both Really Really Big.

We might discount fan-made images/conversions of the Rock (and there have been plenty over the years), but there is one official image of the Rock that I've been able to find. It was shown in this discussion. If that doesn't work for you (the topic has been archived), you can see it here (it's the same image that Gederas linked). That doesn't look to be the size of Australia (though it is difficult to tell for certain), but it is clearly immense and would appear to be larger than the size described for the Phalanx.

I'm more interested in the wording of some of the other facts. For example, I found the "non-human" description in fact #5 curious. To be sure, the fact that some don't consider the Adeptus Astartes to be [true] humans has been well-established for decades. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Adeptus Astartes are non-humans. Rather, I prefer the transhuman description that has been used for over a decade. Practically speaking, that might be another issue of semantics (and once again relies upon whether or not the fact is worded verbatim from its source or if it has been paraphrased by the author of the "facts").

I especially like fact #9, largely because I've always (well, since 2nd edition) felt that was the way it should be based on the criteria that GW has provided since 2nd edition, but also because it "corrects" the implication of the Deathwatch RPG from FFG. The Rites of Battle book for that game allowed for both the Dark Angels and Blood Angels (!) to sire 15% of successor Chapters each, even though the lore has explicitly stated that the Dark Angels are held in suspicion for their secrecy and habit of occasionally abandoning a fight to pursue their own agenda, and the Blood Angels are held in suspicion for some notable genetic deviations. The Imperial Fists, meanwhile, were allowed a paltry 5% of the total successors despite their genetic purity (missing organs notwithstanding) and staunch adherence to the Codex Astartes. The White Scars were also allowed 5%, the Raven Guard and Iron Hands 4%, and both the Space Wolves and Salamanders 1%. I never liked those numbers. It's good to see GW explicitly state that the Imperial Fists have the second largest pool of Successors.


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#17
Gederas

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Are the wordings of the initial ten facts verbatim from their respective sources? I have the various codices and Forge World books, but none of the Black Library books (don't judge me whistlingW.gif ).

The debate about the comparative size of the Phalanx and Rock has been based on some false premises. While Australia is the smallest of the seven common continents here on Terra, it doesn't present the criteria for the smallest possible size of a continent, and might present only a geographer's definition. However, a geologist might allow for much smaller bodies of land, such as Madagascar, to be a continent. Ultimately, if we accept that the hyperbole about the Phalanx is about it being man-made whereas the Rock was an accident (or was it?), then the debate is about semantics. One might be larger than the other. Or maybe they're the same size. Do we really think that the various authors of the material have consulted official definitions and criteria when composing their descriptions? Does the comparative size really matter? They're both Really Really Big.

We might discount fan-made images/conversions of the Rock (and there have been plenty over the years), but there is one official image of the Rock that I've been able to find. It was shown in this discussion. If that doesn't work for you (the topic has been archived), you can see it here (it's the same image that Gederas linked). That doesn't look to be the size of Australia (though it is difficult to tell for certain), but it is clearly immense and would appear to be larger than the size described for the Phalanx.

I'm more interested in the wording of some of the other facts. For example, I found the "non-human" description in fact #5 curious. To be sure, the fact that some don't consider the Adeptus Astartes to be [true] humans has been well-established for decades. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Adeptus Astartes are non-humans. Rather, I prefer the transhuman description that has been used for over a decade. Practically speaking, that might be another issue of semantics (and once again relies upon whether or not the fact is worded verbatim from its source or if it has been paraphrased by the author of the "facts").

I especially like fact #9, largely because I've always (well, since 2nd edition) felt that was the way it should be based on the criteria that GW has provided since 2nd edition, but also because it "corrects" the implication of the Deathwatch RPG from FFG. The Rites of Battle book for that game allowed for both the Dark Angels and Blood Angels (!) to sire 15% of successor Chapters each, even though the lore has explicitly stated that the Dark Angels are held in suspicion for their secrecy and habit of occasionally abandoning a fight to pursue their own agenda, and the Blood Angels are held in suspicion for some notable genetic deviations. The Imperial Fists, meanwhile, were allowed a paltry 5% of the total successors despite their genetic purity (missing organs notwithstanding) and staunch adherence to the Codex Astartes. The White Scars were also allowed 5%, the Raven Guard and Iron Hands 4%, and both the Space Wolves and Salamanders 1%. I never liked those numbers. It's good to see GW explicitly state that the Imperial Fists have the second largest pool of Successors.

Regarding the Madagascar part: I was doing digging, and Madagascar is described as a "Continental fragment" or "microcontinent". It's too large to be an island, but it's too small to be a true continent (however it is the largest microcontinent). So it's not used when discussing continental sizes.

 

Also: Regarding the Rock's size in that picture, remember, we have official sizes of Imperial spacecraft. If some of ships around it are Armageddon-class Battlecruisers, Mars-class Battlecruisers or Overlord-class Battlecruisers those are approximately 5-5.5km long. And the ones closest to The Rock in the picture are massively dwarfed by the Rock (you can see the distinct prow shape of the ships I'm referring to in a few spots below The Rock in the image).

 

So... Yeah.

 

Edit: In the thread you linked Tyler, Dark_Master said those are Retribution-Class Battleship, and those are approximately 7km long.... Which means my comment about The Rock being around the size of Australia might be more correct than I thought. Also apparently David Sondred was given the brief "continent-sized" per Olis in that thread you linked. Which again, means Australia at the minimum :lol:


Edited by Gederas, 03 July 2020 - 03:54 AM.


#18
Brother Adelard

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If the fact about the largest spacecraft is so debatable, why not replace it in the list with the fact that the Imperial Fists are the only first founding chapter to have been completely destroyed and rebuilt from their successors?

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#19
Brother Tyler

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... the Imperial Fists are the only first founding chapter to have been completely destroyed and rebuilt from their successors...


... that we know of.

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#20
War Angel

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If the fact about the largest spacecraft is so debatable, why not replace it in the list with the fact that the Imperial Fists are the only first founding chapter to have been completely destroyed and rebuilt from their successors?


But it’s not debatable, it’s cannon.
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#21
Brother Adelard

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If it's taken almost a whole page up to debate it, it's 'debatable'
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#22
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If it's taken almost a whole page up to debate it, it's 'debatable'


People argue that earth is flat. Does this mean it’s debatable?
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#23
Brother Adelard

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That's a question of empirical fact.

Not a debate over which fictional fortress monastery is bigger based upon snippets of information with no direct comparison and conflicting views.

Ans seeing as people still debate whether the world is flat despite the empirical evidence, it too must be 'debatable'.

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#24
War Angel

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When the snippet of information states “this is the biggest” then we as readers no longer have room to debate. As it is fictional, we just assume that the information provided is fact, as we can’t physically visit the structure to measure it.
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#25
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But it's 40k. Nothing is true.

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