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Rumor: Superheavy/Gargantuan Survivability


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#1
Juggernut

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I was listening to the Long War podcast, and they claimed to have heard some rumors from playtesters about 18+ wound models in that only a fraction of their max wounds could be removed in a given phase.

Therefore, superheavies wouldn’t be vulnerable to getting blown off the table in an alpha strike before their controlling player even had a chance to use them.

They mentioned Ghazgkhull having a similar rule currently, which I’m unfamiliar with.

That was the first I’d heard of this rumor. I think, given how vulnerable big things are in terms of targeting, it could make sense. However, with an army of superheavies (I.e. knights), I wonder if such a rule would be a bit ridiculous. I can certainly see some valid pros and cons to this rumored rule.

Reliability of the rumor is low, but who knows?

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#2
Marshal Valkenhayn

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Against an army of knights who haven't been appropriately recosted, that would be a nightmare, yeah. Partially due to having to splash a few wounds on to them each every phase, and partially because healing isn't uncommon for knights and chaos knights, so over the course of a game they can easily get like 5-10 wounds back, making them almost impossible to remove if the fraction is 1/4th or so. Dunno, we'll have to see if that is true or not.

 

I could understand it as a mechanic for greater daemons or the like, but if that is the case there should also be a huge limitation on how many we can bring in an army. Only one Gahz can join an Ork army, maybe only 1 GD should be able to join a chaos army.


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#3
quasistellar

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Hmm could be interesting. I heard the same podcast. Knights already have pretty big problems with board control and 9th edition is looking like it might be worse for them. This could help quite a bit but it depends on how the rule actually works and how knights are pointed.

Idk if I really think this will happen though.
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#4
Juggernut

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A buddy tells me this rule exists in AoS, so maybe it’s not as unlikely as I first assumed.

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#5
Lagrath

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That would be an amazing rule. Knights, Morty, and Magnus are so easy to kill fast when there are only one or two expensive models in your list that your opponent really needs to focus down. Especially Magnus before he can cast psychic powers. Would explain why 18+ models got screwed in the terrain rules.
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#6
Triszin

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The rule for ghaz is.

He cannot take more than 4 wounds per phase.


I think it could be rolled out, in a very limited manner for non specials.

Ex.
18w+. ( Cannot take more than 12 wounds a turn).
banana

#7
Lexington

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...be still, my beating, Stompa-loving heart.
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#8
Lord Blackwood

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If true Knight Armies would  quickly be disgusting. 

And I love and play Knights , Own 15 of them  and then  9 armigers. 

Even if Knights went up 100 points a frame a rule that made them that much more durable would legitimately be insane , though it would make some of the tiny healing they do have self contained in their codex pretty strong. 

As much as I would love for that to be true Knights and Chaos Knights would be VERY hard to shift 

Here's hoping its true >.> 



#9
Marshal Valkenhayn

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A buddy tells me this rule exists in AoS, so maybe it’s not as unlikely as I first assumed.

 

 

While it does exist in AOS, and did before Gahz, the only model I can think of that had it is the queen of the dark elves. She can only take 3 wounds per phase and is a nightmare to deal with at only 12 wounds. If this gets capped to, say, no more than half of their wounds, I'd say that's acceptable. It means that between their healing and that rule, they're garanteed at least 3 turns of play, unless between psychic, shooting, AND melee an army can take one out. Maybe cap it at 1/3rd of their wounds. I dunno. Trying to coil my brain around balancing that one is tough.



#10
dice4thedicegod

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I think it could be a great warlord trait to give to a single LOW in your force... but would be an unplayable nightmare if a whole army had it.


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#11
AenarIT

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Yet another huge nerf for Tau if this proves true.

Ghaz is currently one of the worst models we can face, as we have only one phase to deal damage to him (two if you count overwatch, but any good ork player will dodge it). 

If they decide to go down this route, please let it be "max wounds per turn" rather than per phase. 



#12
Dracos

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Maybe it's a Universal Warlord Trait or Stratagem type of thing?


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#13
Waking Dreamer

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Yet another huge nerf for Tau if this proves true.

Ghaz is currently one of the worst models we can face, as we have only one phase to deal damage to him (two if you count overwatch, but any good ork player will dodge it). 

If they decide to go down this route, please let it be "max wounds per turn" rather than per phase. 

 

Yeah, it's a tricky one to balance for all the different army play-styles if true.  Technically, you should be able to take down a max-health super-heavy in one turn if your army is active in all the phases per turn, so a max wound limit "per turn" would make them guaranteed to survive even against that.

 

How about 50% of their max health limit per phase as the standard...so 9 wounds / phase for 18W models and 12 wounds / phase for 24W models?

 

However, for each codex that cannot be active in a particular phase the damage cap is 66% (rounded down) per phase. That is, for Tau, Necrons, Custodes etc. it would be 11 wounds / phase for 18W models and 15 wounds / phase for 24W models?


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#14
AenarIT

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That would work, but I can't see GW pushing calculations of that sort as part of the basic rules. They like to work with nice, round and easy to remember numbers.
Another thing would be how to define which phases an army is active in or not. 



#15
MARK0SIAN

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A rule like this would certainly go a long way to balance out some of the disadvantages that Knights etc have been given with the new terrain rules.

I don’t think it would be as overpowering as a lot of people seem to think. Facing a knight army, it just means you have to spread out your damage rather than nuking one knight at a time. The amount it’s capped at is still likely to be reasonable so you’ll still be able to bracket them fairly quickly and kill them over maybe three turns.

To be honest, with what we know so far about the new rules, I genuinely don’t think knights are going to be a viable army without something like this.

That said, it doesn’t mean I like this rule, it’s the kind of rule that’s had to be introduced because the core mechanics of the game make it too deadly for large models. It feels like a band-aid fix rather than working to make larger models more survivable through other means.

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#16
Dracos

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My experience is most armies are only involved in two of the three damage phases and probably only good at one or the other. As much as I like to see an even playing field for each players points this seems like a really artificial game mechanic that is going to have a lot of the feel badsies. I mean seriously . . . my third lascannon suddenly doesn't work on the Big Bad because the first two struck home? Seriously bad rule?


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#17
Brokejaw Gutripper

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If it gets my storm surge some play I’m all for it. As it is that thing is a centerpiece on the shelf.

#18
Putrid Choir

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My experience is most armies are only involved in two of the three damage phases and probably only good at one or the other. As much as I like to see an even playing field for each players points this seems like a really artificial game mechanic that is going to have a lot of the feel badsies. I mean seriously . . . my third lascannon suddenly doesn't work on the Big Bad because the first two struck home? Seriously bad rule?


Ghaz already has it and it's not that broken. Maybe do it per turn versus per phase? But you want to talk about realism, Magnus and Mortarion are a smidge bigger than RG in the lore but are treated as being the size of a knight and all the downsides of being that size in 9th. Mortarion can walk inside buildings in the lore but on the table can't even hide behind them. The rules are already seriously bad...
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#19
Kain Mor

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My experience is most armies are only involved in two of the three damage phases and probably only good at one or the other. As much as I like to see an even playing field for each players points this seems like a really artificial game mechanic that is going to have a lot of the feel badsies. I mean seriously . . . my third lascannon suddenly doesn't work on the Big Bad because the first two struck home? Seriously bad rule?

Ghaz already has it and it's not that broken. Maybe do it per turn versus per phase? But you want to talk about realism, Magnus and Mortarion are a smidge bigger than RG in the lore but are treated as being the size of a knight and all the downsides of being that size in 9th. Mortarion can walk inside buildings in the lore but on the table can't even hide behind them. The rules are already seriously bad...

Ghaz hasn’t really been on that many tables since he came out, so we don’t know how broken it is. Space marines can probably handle him but most others will likely struggle, since he’ll be in your face T2 with lots of boyz. Also if your opponent has a painboy follow him around it just adds insult to injury

#20
Putrid Choir

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My experience is most armies are only involved in two of the three damage phases and probably only good at one or the other. As much as I like to see an even playing field for each players points this seems like a really artificial game mechanic that is going to have a lot of the feel badsies. I mean seriously . . . my third lascannon suddenly doesn't work on the Big Bad because the first two struck home? Seriously bad rule?

Ghaz already has it and it's not that broken. Maybe do it per turn versus per phase? But you want to talk about realism, Magnus and Mortarion are a smidge bigger than RG in the lore but are treated as being the size of a knight and all the downsides of being that size in 9th. Mortarion can walk inside buildings in the lore but on the table can't even hide behind them. The rules are already seriously bad...
Ghaz hasn’t really been on that many tables since he came out, so we don’t know how broken it is. Space marines can probably handle him but most others will likely struggle, since he’ll be in your face T2 with lots of boyz. Also if your opponent has a painboy follow him around it just adds insult to injury

I don't see that as any more broken than the 2.0 marine codex/supplements, which will be the standard for 9E codexes. I will agree in the specific argument of certain factions like Tau who really don't have any options other than shooting its not ideal, which is why I suggested being based on turns and not phases. But Ghaz is over 9W and can't hide. I see him as easier to shift than a primarch with 9W who can hide in plain sight with 2+/3++ and can revive himself...

#21
Dracos

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I'm not talking realism, I'm talking a player being told "sorry you hurt me enough and my other stuff is in reserve so all your other models have to sit on their hands this turn." 

 

They talk about wanting to speed the game up and create more interaction out of one side of their mouth and them make rules that do exactly the opposite out of the other. 

 

Honestly at this point I feel like starting a campaign showing why buying the "Launch Boxes" is a waste of time for Marine players and convincing them to bring as many Relic Contemptors and Venerable Dreads as possible

 

 

PS: Ghaz is one thing and as mentioned not playtested by the community. Not that it matters with 9e its a different context. I'm more concerned about how wide spread this might be and how it effects the  rest of the game. Not every army has a Riptide, Demon Prince or Baneblade to spam three of.


Edited by Dracos, 28 June 2020 - 07:00 AM.

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#22
MasterDeath

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Ghazkull is not that bad with the rule "4 damage per phase" because he is a melee fighter. That rule wouldn´t be so bad on a rampager or similar, but on a dominus? In that case there is only one phase (shooting) where he could be damaged. If its ~80% per round, so a knight can live to see a round 2, thats fine I think (I never had the idea how to tackle knights with Nurgle Daemons in the first place) but a blanket 6 per phase would be pretty much broken.



#23
Grimdark_Garage

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My experience is most armies are only involved in two of the three damage phases and probably only good at one or the other. As much as I like to see an even playing field for each players points this seems like a really artificial game mechanic that is going to have a lot of the feel badsies. I mean seriously . . . my third lascannon suddenly doesn't work on the Big Bad because the first two struck home? Seriously bad rule?

Ghaz already has it and it's not that broken. Maybe do it per turn versus per phase? But you want to talk about realism, Magnus and Mortarion are a smidge bigger than RG in the lore but are treated as being the size of a knight and all the downsides of being that size in 9th. Mortarion can walk inside buildings in the lore but on the table can't even hide behind them. The rules are already seriously bad...

You can't really bring realism into it. If so your down a very deep rabbit hole. And not a new 9th hole either.

But on topic, I see this being a rule for super heavy <CHARACTERS> only. Which would include a Knight warlord.

I can't say I've ever played against a superheavy that has ever benefitted from cover so I don't see any real change from 8th.

Don't forget, you can put your random Stormsurges and Stompas in reserve.

In a Knight army, your opponent will probably have the ability to remove one Knight in the first turn. Its your job to punch effectively whether you go 1st or 2nd.

Risky army to play and incredibly tough to balance.

#24
Putrid Choir

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I'm not talking realism, I'm talking a player being told "sorry you hurt me enough and my other stuff is in reserve so all your other models have to sit on their hands this turn."

They talk about wanting to speed the game up and create more interaction out of one side of their mouth and them make rules that do exactly the opposite out of the other.

Honestly at this point I feel like starting a campaign showing why buying the "Launch Boxes" is a waste of time for Marine players and convincing them to bring as many Relic Contemptors and Venerable Dreads as possible


Is that worse than being told "sorry I know my character is in plain sight but I have one infantry whose closer to your units that you can't see so you can't shoot at it at all and have to sit on your hands this turn"? Atleast in your situation you got to shoot at it for a little bit...

I thought Ghaz's rules were refreshing and didn't play off of the terrible 8th edition character rule of "one infantry is closer to you but hiding behind something so you can't even shoot my character". There is no way GW can make everyone happy but at least they tried something different and added the 3" stipulation to characters now.

But at this point it's just rumors and speculation. I'll believe the change to 18W+ units when I see it.

Edit:grammar

Edited by Putrid Choir, 28 June 2020 - 06:59 AM.


#25
Dracos

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It should be difficult to pick out an infantry character amongst a number of similar shaped models on the battlefield compared to shooting at a two hundred foot tall warmachine suddenly being invulnerable because it took [X] amount of wounds. Knights already ruled the field in 8e for a good period of the game. Go ask Brandon Grant about the effectiveness of one Knight on the field. Knights are fine when they aren't used by a point and click player.


Edited by Dracos, 28 June 2020 - 07:40 AM.

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