SkimaskMohawk Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) A big factor in comparing units is if you want to stay in one foc or not. Traditionally we've used double battalion and squeezed all sorts of undercosted units (thunderfire, eliminators and suppressors amongst others) into a list to supplement the main damage output. But now you have to measure that against slot efficiency. Honestly eliminators going up 12 points (pre cloak) isn't a deal breaker, but them being my entire heavy support allocation is. Now I could spend 2 cp for a patrol, but my raven guard kind of ate up a lot of cp pre-battle to start with. Eradicators are similar. They might be great points-wise, but if until they can be taken past units of 3 I have no reason to pick them over other heavy support like centurions. Edited July 3, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk Alcyon 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddlesworth Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 Its a really good point, especially for CP hungry armies like ravenguard. You're going to have to look at other slots - if you're taking eliminators in the heavy slot, maybe you have.to take suppressors or plasma inceptors in the fast slot for some light anti vehicle fire power.if you take eradicators (who have great synergy with raven guard), bolter inceptors or outriders are a great pick for anti screen and horde. Alcyon 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDeath Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 *looks at list, looks at cultists and their 50% increase in points* Well, you wont see much play my friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcyon Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) A big factor in comparing units is if you want to stay in one foc or not. Traditionally we've used double battalion and squeezed all sorts of undercosted units (thunderfire, eliminators and suppressors amongst others) into a list to supplement the main damage output. But now you have to measure that against slot efficiency. Honestly eliminators going up 12 points (pre cloak) isn't a deal breaker, but them being my entire heavy support allocation is. Now I could spend 2 cp for a patrol, but my raven guard kind of ate up a lot of cp pre-battle to start with. Eradicators are similar. They might be great points-wise, but if until they can be taken past units of 3 I have no reason to pick them over other heavy support like centurions. It might matter less than we think. Armies from 1k to 2k pts grant 12 CP plus possibly an additional 1 for being Battle-Forged (according to the Core Rules) and the cost of the detachment your warlord is in is refunded. Compared to 8th if you ran a Battalion you would have 5+3=8 for being Battle-Forged plus the Battalion itself, plus maybe another 1 for your Vanguard or Spearhead. On top of that, some missions apparently grant 1 CP per turn. Granted there are some new stratagems that will require more CP, but you start off with more than you had before. If you buy a Spearhead you're just back to where you were, basically. For 1 more CP and the cost of a Troop and HQ you could run a Patrol which unlocks a bunch more slots of every kind. Edited July 3, 2020 by Alcyon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) Its a really good point, especially for CP hungry armies like ravenguard. You're going to have to look at other slots - if you're taking eliminators in the heavy slot, maybe you have.to take suppressors or plasma inceptors in the fast slot for some light anti vehicle fire power.if you take eradicators (who have great synergy with raven guard), bolter inceptors or outriders are a great pick for anti screen and horde. The problem is mainly that I'm not doing all primaris for my raven guard and as a result centurions are the what exterminators are up against. Ya sure they're half the points for the same number of models, but boy do they lose out on efficacy. For my all-primars blood ravens it might be a different story, but also heavily dependant on what chapter I want to be a successor of. @falcon well it depends right. My raven guard I ran double battalion and started with 13, which I then burnt like 5 or 6 down pre-game. My blood ravens I mainly used a single battalion gimmick list, so they'll be in a better spot. But I also haven't played them since the doctrine nerf, and wanted to expand them out from being a gimmick lol. Edited July 3, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddlesworth Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 It might matter less than we think. Armies from 1k to 2k pts grant 12 CP plus possibly an additional 1 for being Battle-Forged (according to the Core Rules) and the cost of the detachment your warlord is in is refunded. Compared to 8th if you ran a Battalion you would have 5+3=8 for being Battle-Forged plus the Battalion itself, plus maybe another 1 for your Vanguard or Spearhead. On top of that, some missions apparently grant 1 CP per turn. Granted there are some new stratagems that will require more CP, but you start off with more than you had before. If you buy a Spearhead you're just back to where you were, basically. For 1 more CP and the cost of a Troop and HQ you could run a Patrol which unlocks a bunch more slots of every kind. I dont know many marine armies that weren't running double battalion to unlock a tonne of CP with how good the new stratagems from the codex and supplements were. Add the interesting faith and fury stuff (if you're taking a chaplain, for example, spending 2 CP on him for master of sanctity and wise orator was kind of a no brainer) and marines were super CP hungry. I was running a brigade at 2k and regularly spending 5 at list building and 2-3 pre game. Without a brigade I just wouldn't have been using strats in the game. The problem is mainly that I'm not doing all primaris for my raven guard and as a result centurions are the what exterminators are up against. Ya sure they're half the points for the same number of models, but boy do they lose out on efficacy. . I've seen grav centurions be used very effectively with ravenguard. And your point is a good one. Spending cp on detachments is a big choice now and I love it. Having said that, eliminators in raven guard doctrine warm my cockles Oxydo 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcyon Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) They're not Primaris so they aren't here, but Centurions took a points hike; Devastators are now 60+10+10+15=95 for Heavy Bolters (an increase of 25) and 85 (increase of 15) for Grav. I think that's about a 20% hike (35% for the Heavy Bolter variant.) I dunno if that'll dissuade anyone really but it's notable at least. Three overcharging Plasmaceptors have very similar damage output and you probably wanted to run both with Captains anyways; Cents do edge out the 'ceptors against 1w models with their additional shots. Edited July 3, 2020 by Alcyon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewman Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 These are not the same rumors I've seen, from what I saw Aggressors are 40 points regardless of weapon load. The base dude went to 40 but every gun in can carry went to 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcyon Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 These are not the same rumors I've seen, from what I saw Aggressors are 40 points regardless of weapon load. The base dude went to 40 but every gun in can carry went to 0. Don't forget 5ppm for the Fragstorm Grenade Launchers. 45ppm for the bolter dudes, flamer is 40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewman Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 These are not the same rumors I've seen, from what I saw Aggressors are 40 points regardless of weapon load. The base dude went to 40 but every gun in can carry went to 0. Don't forget 5ppm for the Fragstorm Grenade Launchers. 45ppm for the bolter dudes, flamer is 40. I'm not forgetting the Fragstorm, that also went to 0 on the list I saw. Which was admittedly a repost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcyon Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 The "Mournival" watermarked leaks I saw had them at 5pts, I didn't know there were other posts cost leaks. Hymnblade 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 They're not Primaris so they aren't here, but Centurions took a points hike; Devastators are now 60+10+10+15=95 for Heavy Bolters (an increase of 25) and 85 (increase of 15) for Grav. I think that's about a 20% hike (35% for the Heavy Bolter variant.) I dunno if that'll dissuade anyone really but it's notable at least. Three overcharging Plasmaceptors have very similar damage output and you probably wanted to run both with Captains anyways; Cents do edge out the 'ceptors against 1w models with their additional shots. Oh I've seen the price hike and it's laughable for such an impactful unit. Dont get me wrong, 45 points isn't nothing for grav centurions, but for a unit that can crush an entire flank with proper support its really not a lot. They're one of the most slot efficient choices possible, at least for raven guard and possibly fists still. It's also important to note that due to their larger unit sizes, stratagems and other buffs (like the chaplains +1 to wound) just add to that. Plasmaceptors seem great (and I actually just got around to finishing building mine from 3 years ago), but as fast attack choices aren't in the circle of competition so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Plasma Inceptors can destroy just about anything if you take more than three. Volt 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Plasma Inceptors can destroy just about anything if you take more than three. Sure. Never said anything about the inceptors other than they're outside of heavy support comparison. I'd still take grav centurions over them if it was an either/or thing for my raven guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Plasma Inceptors can destroy just about anything if you take more than three. I have to units of 5 Bolter Inceptors in my shooty Raven Guard Successors. . . . I'm not sure I'm sold on the Eradicators. I want to compare the point/value damage vs T7/8 with what equal points or Fusil Eliminators can so. If I decide to bypass the Eradicators I'll probably take a unit of Plasma Inceptors. I just really like the models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcyon Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 There's a reddit thread where a guy put together updated points totals for everything available including non-Primaris stuff, definitely recommend checking it out; the full list is here on Imgur. It was also shared in the News & Rumours post. I don't think there's too much that might be relevant to Primaris lists but some of the Rhino-pattern tanks are now comparatively cheaper, and Terminators stayed the same points so they might be more competitive with Primaris now. Overall Lascannons got cheaper and Heavy Bolters got more expensive, as someone suggested on reddit it's likely that the latter was just getting too good and popular for its cost being at that Str 5 sweet spot with AP -1 and was starting to take over. Also Firstborn Grav (and Las) Devastators are very cheap now and Drop Pods barely got any more expensive at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcyon Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 (edited) Plasma Inceptors can destroy just about anything if you take more than three. Sure. Never said anything about the inceptors other than they're outside of heavy support comparison. I'd still take grav centurions over them if it was an either/or thing for my raven guard. Just looking at Mathhammer 3 overcharged Plasmaceptors do about the same damage to vehicles and Primaris as Grav Centurions do; it's only when you get down to GEQ or Firstborn Marines that the Centurions' extra shots really start to pay off. For that benefit you're now paying an extra 35 points per model, getting an extra wound and a 2+ save (though Raven Guard probably had cover anyway) and sacrificing mobility and deep strike. I dunno, some of the new info about 9th Ed missions seems to suggest mobility and objective holding is more important than killing for VPs, I wouldn't be surprised if Centurions were just too many eggs in one basket. Plus, you can run a lot of Inceptors in a single unit and then combat squad them. Edited July 4, 2020 by Alcyon Volt and Dracos 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Plasma Inceptors can destroy just about anything if you take more than three.Sure. Never said anything about the inceptors other than they're outside of heavy support comparison. I'd still take grav centurions over them if it was an either/or thing for my raven guard. Just looking at Mathhammer 3 overcharged Plasmaceptors do about the same damage to vehicles and Primaris as Grav Centurions do; it's only when you get down to GEQ or Firstborn Marines that the Centurions' extra shots really start to pay off. For that benefit you're now paying an extra 35 points per model, getting an extra wound and a 2+ save (though Raven Guard probably had cover anyway) and sacrificing mobility and deep strike. I dunno, some of the new info about 9th Ed missions seems to suggest mobility and objective holding is more important than killing for VPs, I wouldn't be surprised if Centurions were just too many eggs in one basket. Plus, you can run a lot of Inceptors in a single unit and then combat squad them. I'm at the risk of going wildy off topic, so I'll just preface it with "I'll gladly pay the points for my raven guard list" lol. I am very keen on testing the plasmaceptors today, I expect a sick opening volley into them dying to focus fire. I also feel like the invictor increase is fair. It's not just going up for the sake of points increase, but because it no longer suffers a penalty to hit with at least half it's weapons and because its even more terrifying in combat now due to big guns. And it was already very undercosted. That's another take away. While the various spreadsheets are useful, it's important not to tunnel on the percentage increase too much. A lot of units received buffs, most marine units were very undercosted and the competition units also went up in price (for the most part). Some times, despite some units having a nicer looking percentage increase, there's no net difference pre and post 9th points Dracos 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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