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[9th] starting a deathwatch army - vanguards still useful?


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#1
Raychu

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Hello people,

I hope everyone is fine!

I have some sprues/minis waiting to be built for a deathwatch army, but I was wondering if the units in the indominus box are going to be useful for Deathwatch? (in other word do I try to buy a half box in order to make them deathwatch?)

my guess the eradicators (the gravis guys with melta-fancy-gun) will be a must have to have some anti-vehicules/monsters. but what about the rest?

What do you think?

Edited by Raychu, 31 July 2020 - 07:50 PM.


#2
GrinNfool

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Eh they have said on one of their streams DW would be getting access to new stuff, but as to whether they get EVERYTHING in that box is a guessing game.  I don't think I would take the risk with how expensive that box is going to be, but if you want the necron stuff too or are just a hobbyist who wants to paint them go for it.  However until I see them go down the list and say we get this or that I won't be making any purchases personally, just based on their phobos armor releases.



#3
HighMarshalAmp

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Wait for the Codex to drop - it ain't gonna take long now.

Indomitus will be around for some time yet and you'll always find someone to split with.

In the meantime, get painting on what you have happy.png


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#4
Master Sheol

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Indomitus is a WSL release
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#5
Raychu

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Indomitus is a WSL release

 

World Surf League?

 

yes I know I could wait for the Codex, but the box will disappear before the codex / supplement drops.

 

I'll have a SM half because I play Dark Angels. but the question is do everything will be useful for both armies, in that case will it be a good idea to try to have another half or not.

I don't think I'll be putting the eradicator in my main DA army as I am not too keen on the minis and I find the Deathwatch lacks propre anti-vehicule / monsters at mid to long range.

but will a melee specialised captain, lieutenant, bladeguards be useful for a deathwatch army or not? I don't really think so, but I prefer to have your opinions here.



#6
Mobius0288

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Sadly, you're gonna have to wait for an Errata to drop or something official after initial release saying we are permitted to use them. Due to the way they made us a separate faction with a limited selection of units, GW has to come out and say in some publication that we can use them.

 

It seems like its going to happen according to some of the streams, but that's the deciding point.

 

The only things we for sure won't get is the LT (which is too bad, decent fighter) and the Bladeguard Ancient. The Judicar is a toss up. Everything else can easily fit in.

 

We're all in the same boat. Either stock pile some of the models and hope the publication comes out soon after, or buy them later on down the road when we have a codex and multi-part kit.


Edited by Mobius0288, 02 July 2020 - 01:10 PM.

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#7
MadEdric

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Looks like we’ll get to use them according to the faction focus. I’m also trying to figure where they will fit, and will some get to join Fortis killteams. We’ll just have to wait and really see what rules these units get that will tie them into the DW.

#8
Lemondish

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Looks like we’ll get to use them according to the faction focus. I’m also trying to figure where they will fit, and will some get to join Fortis killteams. We’ll just have to wait and really see what rules these units get that will tie them into the DW.


I'm expecting them to be available to Deathwatch as their base units, but we'll have to wait some time before a new codex provides kill team rules for them.

I'm also expecting the new codex to be quite far away. The last thing I remember them saying is that they have some ideas. If they're still only in the idea phase for the codex, then it won't be here anytime soon.

#9
Rikev

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I think the pauldrons are attached to the arms so either be ready with the clippers or wait for the separate box sets.

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#10
Raychu

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I'm also expecting the new codex to be quite far away. The last thing I remember them saying is that they have some ideas. If they're still only in the idea phase for the codex, then it won't be here anytime soon.

 

 

apparently they are more than just at the "idea phase", as the deathwatch codex or supplement should be one of the first in 9nd edition (after Necrons and Space marine base codex for sure).



#11
HighMarshalAmp

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Indomitus is a WSL release

 

World Surf League?

 

yes I know I could wait for the Codex, but the box will disappear before the codex / supplement drops.

 

I'll have a SM half because I play Dark Angels. but the question is do everything will be useful for both armies, in that case will it be a good idea to try to have another half or not.

I don't think I'll be putting the eradicator in my main DA army as I am not too keen on the minis and I find the Deathwatch lacks propre anti-vehicule / monsters at mid to long range.

but will a melee specialised captain, lieutenant, bladeguards be useful for a deathwatch army or not? I don't really think so, but I prefer to have your opinions here.

 

[Edit: Removed plain wrong advice that needed to pe purged and which you can still find in the quote in post #12]

 

Will a unit be useful?

DW have been relegated to being a C:SM Chapter with SIA as Chapter Tactics. Any Kill Team Synergies are extra.

So ask yourself how to best benefit from that CT and how to fix any holes that might leave in your list.

[Edit: Removed plain wrong advice that needed to pe purged and which you can still find in the quote in post #12]

 

Do the Bladeguard make the most of SIA? No.

Do they fill a hole in your list? Depends on the list.

I like to put some pressure on the front lines to keep my shooty squads from being harassed. A Captain teleporting in with an Lt and a squad of Bladeguard and then beaconing another squad of Bladeguard certainly does that. My trusty Cpt/ Lt/ Company Vets Drop Pod bomb usually manages to cause some damage before they're deleted. So if I ever go Primaris DW, I'll include the new guys.

Do you like a gunline? Then pass on the new guys in favor of more Bolt Rifles.

 

What we really need is a Veteran Intercessor with a Bolt Rifle and Chainsword.

We'll never get that because C:SM will never get that.


Edited by HighMarshalAmp, 08 July 2020 - 10:12 AM.

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#12
Qui-Gon

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Indomitus is a WSL release

 

World Surf League?

 

yes I know I could wait for the Codex, but the box will disappear before the codex / supplement drops.

 

I'll have a SM half because I play Dark Angels. but the question is do everything will be useful for both armies, in that case will it be a good idea to try to have another half or not.

I don't think I'll be putting the eradicator in my main DA army as I am not too keen on the minis and I find the Deathwatch lacks propre anti-vehicule / monsters at mid to long range.

but will a melee specialised captain, lieutenant, bladeguards be useful for a deathwatch army or not? I don't really think so, but I prefer to have your opinions here.

 

Indomitus won't disappear for some time. Both Dark Imperium and Shadowspear were around even after the multi part kits were released.

 

Will a unit be useful?

DW have been relegated to being a C:SM Chapter with SIA as Chapter Tactics. Any Kill Team Synergies are extra.

So ask yourself how to best benefit from that CT and how to fix any holes that might leave in your list.

Case in point, DW can be strong against vehicles. SIA spam (think wounding on 2s) can wear down any vehicle rather quickly and what the weapons lack in range, bikes and jump packs make up for in mobility. You'd need INtercessors and Aggressors for that, no Indomitus units.

 

Do the Bladeguard make the most of SIA? No.

Do they fill a hole in your list? Depends on the list.

I like to put some pressure on the front lines to keep my shooty squads from being harassed. A Captain teleporting in with an Lt and a squad of Bladeguard and then beaconing another squad of Bladeguard certainly does that. My trusty Cpt/ Lt/ Company Vets Drop Pod bomb usually manages to cause some damage before they're deleted. So if I ever go Primaris DW, I'll include the new guys.

Do you like a gunline? Then pass on the new guys in favor of more Bolt Rifles.

 

What we really need is a Veteran Intercessor with a Bolt Rifle and Chainsword.

We'll never get that because C:SM will never get that.

 

 

 

Deathwatch's Chapter Tactic is Mission Tactics, not SIA.

Deathwatch are inherently weak against vehicles because SIA does not wound vehicles on 2+ as you claim it does. Furthermore, I do not understand how you equate Aggressors as addressing a mobility issue with the army with a 5" move and a desire to stand still.


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#13
Master Sheol

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Indomitus is a limited run and already sold out on pre-order
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“Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.”

#14
HighMarshalAmp

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Deathwatch's Chapter Tactic is Mission Tactics, not SIA.

 

Deathwatch are inherently weak against vehicles because SIA does not wound vehicles on 2+ as you claim it does. Furthermore, I do not understand how you equate Aggressors as addressing a mobility issue with the army with a 5" move and a desire to stand still.

I was dead wrong about Hellfire rounds and SIA, that's what I get for not playing DW in a year. I knew there was a reason I added the Salamanders Lascannon Squads back then.

 

Edit: I have, however, removed all that from my original post (with a reference to your answer if anyone is interested what idiotic things I had written) as to lead nobody astray following these few points.

 

But I reckon the rest of my post still has some merit so unless I completely forgot how to play DW (it's possible, mind you) I'll leave that where it is.


Edited by HighMarshalAmp, 08 July 2020 - 10:59 AM.

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#15
Mobius0288

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Indomitus is a limited run and already sold out on pre-order


You could be right in that it may be limited, like the sisters box, but it hasn't even gone out for pre-order yet (11 July). It can't be sold out.
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#16
Master Sheol

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Indomitus is a limited run and already sold out on pre-order

You could be right in that it may be limited, like the sisters box, but it hasn't even gone out for pre-order yet (11 July). It can't be sold out.
It will be in a couple of minutes when the pre-order will be open
My LFGS had requests from his customers of 26 boxes but GW will send him only 21 so people like Me that wanted 2 boxes had to make a step back and order just one box
So the situation will be that when Saturday the pre-order will open on site the quantity of boxes will be sold in few minutes
“Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.”

#17
Raychu

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thank you guys for all your answers.

I have been thinking, and I don't think I'll take another half box just for my deadwatch.

because

1. I have too much plastic yet

2. I am not enough of a melee player to get the full indomitus set.

3. as the box is limited, I do not want to potentially take one from someone else. ( and I have big expences to come)

 

however, I guess I will be splitting the assault intercessors into two 5 men squads. one for my DA, and one for my deathwatch.

the eradicators will go to the deathwatch.

the rest will more likely make it to my dark angels army.

as a primaris captain, I'll convert Kor'Sarro primarised.



#18
Raychu

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Hello people,

I changed the title of this post, because well with the changes to the fly keyword in 9th edition, i en not sure To see the use of vanguards veterans. Mainly in killteams, because i guess in vanguard squads there could be a bit of melee fun.

I was thinking of adding 2 vanguards and 3 bikes To a 5men killteam, then combat squading the lot. Giving me 5 fast moving toughness 5, objective secured melee squad

What do you think?
What about having 1 or 2 in any killteam?

Thx in advance


Edited by Raychu, 03 August 2020 - 12:24 PM.


#19
GrinNfool

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For the most part I think vanguards, as part of a killteam, are gone.  The only way I see them is in something like a 3 biker 2 VV, or 4 biker 1 VV group that you combat squad off of a main KT, to protect the bikers with SSs or hide a Heavy Thunder Hammer.  Otherwise I think if you were inclined to use them you would be better off using them as 5 man teams on their own, not part of a killteam.  I honestly think reivers are more useful in intercessor kill teams than VVs are in normal kill teams.  At least reivers are cheaper ablative wounds. 

 

Let that sink in for a second btw, a reiver is 18 a VV is 19 and an intercessor is 20, 21 with autobolt.  The reiver is 2 wounds and cheaper than the VV with the same number of attacks and 2 sia shots at 24".  Heck take that a step further, a reiver is 1 point more expensive for the same number of non AP sia shots as a barebones vet, while getting an extra wound, and not needing to be at 12" for their 2 shots, can advance + shoot too.  Don't intend to derail from your VV topic here, just trying to illustrate how far from being useable in a kill team a VV is now, outside of fringe uses.



#20
Paulinus

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As some have mentioned take 2xVV and three bikes in normal kill team. Combat squad to make them independant. What you end up with is a three man bike squad with two VV with storm shields and focus on taking and holding objectives. They’ll be durable at T5 and a couple of invulnerable saves.

I plan on maybe running two of these to get primaries.

But that’s the limit on VV I will use.

#21
quasistellar

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I think standard vet kill teams are pretty much dead until the supplement comes out. Way too expensive for what you get. It's tempting to try to make them work in razorbacks as objective sitters but meh. Take primaris kill teams and some dreads and maybe some Eradicators.

Until the supplement drops, of course. We could see a reason for their ridiculous points increase and maybe old vets will be worth it then. I still love the models (best of the minimarines by far IMO)

#22
Debauchery101

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For the most part I think vanguards, as part of a killteam, are gone. The only way I see them is in something like a 3 biker 2 VV, or 4 biker 1 VV group that you combat squad off of a main KT, to protect the bikers with SSs or hide a Heavy Thunder Hammer. Otherwise I think if you were inclined to use them you would be better off using them as 5 man teams on their own, not part of a killteam. I honestly think reivers are more useful in intercessor kill teams than VVs are in normal kill teams. At least reivers are cheaper ablative wounds.

Let that sink in for a second btw, a reiver is 18 a VV is 19 and an intercessor is 20, 21 with autobolt. The reiver is 2 wounds and cheaper than the VV with the same number of attacks and 2 sia shots at 24". Heck take that a step further, a reiver is 1 point more expensive for the same number of non AP sia shots as a barebones vet, while getting an extra wound, and not needing to be at 12" for their 2 shots, can advance + shoot too. Don't intend to derail from your VV topic here, just trying to illustrate how far from being useable in a kill team a VV is now, outside of fringe uses.

🤣🤣🤣 that combat squading 3 bikers and 2 VV or 1 VV and 1 terminator has been something I've tried to keep low key. It has always surprised people. I haven't done it in 9th but this is a very powerful strategy that is overlooked and not thought about often until you use it on someone

Edited by Debauchery101, 09 August 2020 - 07:18 PM.

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