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W40K 9th edition points leaks - SM in full


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#1
antique_nova

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The only thing missing is the wargear and close combat weapons.



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My POV here is from someone who only plays in competitive GTs. Not any everyday player or casual player. So, that's something to bear in mind, as casual games are far easier to change and prepare for than competitive GTs which are pretty fixed all year around.

Based on this, GWS are somehow still pursuing the idea that they want everyone to play smaller games as the norm for competitive. They tried to make us stick with 1750 pts from their tournaments, but most TOs ignored them and stuck to 2k points. Now, many of the top SMs lists from before have gone up by 300 pts on average.

My take on this is that the competitive community (those who play to compete in grand tournaments) will no way in seven hells stick with 2k points being the norm anymore, which is what GWS seem to have been working towards. The whole points change has not been to balance the game, so much as it has been to strangely reduce the number of models for normal sized competitive games at grand tournaments. At least on the SM side, which is what all the points leaks are about.

My take is that TOs for GTs will eventually push the norm to about 2500 points and GWS will be like. Seriously? Listen here you little :cusss!

Also, 9th edition seems to be all about how long can you last and hold objectives. There is an extremely low attention towards anything kill for objectives. I completely disagree with this. 40k is about slaughtering your enemies more than holding objectives, because that is the objective! I mean, who's going to contest your objective if they're already dead? Right? That is the 40k logic right? :P

EDIT: I more than welcomed the addition of more objective based games in 8th edition, because some parts before felt too killy (I'm not khornate. So figures.) But if what I've seen is true, they went from one extreme to the other, which isn't how you should do it.

As for the rest of the community who plays the game. In all honesty, it doesn't phase me. Is it better for them? By what metrics are you measuring that by? Faster games? At what points level? The types of missions? Maybe. Scalability being better? Possibly, I don't know. It's next to impossible for anyone to define what points level or time the everyday player plays at. The only reliable data anyone had is what time and points the most competitive at GTs regularly play. GWS will almost never get reliable data on the average everyday player as the possibilities are too many. So they should and have based the points on the competitive community, because they provide reliable data and are the ones who actually tell the community what's broken and what needs to be fixed. Casual players don't do this and shouldn't be relied upon for such feedback 99% of the time. But I feel pretty strongly that GTs outside GW for the most competitive like NOVA etc will not stay at 2k points. It will increase.

Why will the GTs increase in points? If they wanted smaller games, then they would have done so in 8th edition. The current 2k for GTs feels like a 1500 or game right now for 9th. 1750 at most.

At first, I don't see how the rules will make games slower or faster. Only at what points the games are being played will change that and how familiar you are with the rules. So long games will be back due to the huge changes in unit coherency and interaction with cover, but that won't affect game time too much in the long run IMO.

Does this mean shorter games? No, because it depends on points levels. What it does mean however, is that you'll be able to get stuck into close combat faster and that doesn't mean faster games. Because that's another buckets worth full of dice and rules to activate that you normally wouldn't get to do back in 8th edition. Also, shooty armies tend to be faster to play than close combat armies since CC armies largely ignore 1 phase (shooting) and shooty armies largely ignore 2 phases or 3 (movement, assault and psychic). By ignore, I mean it's not as time consuming or difficult to make decisions on compared to their main phases of their turn.

Edited by antique_nova, 03 July 2020 - 01:58 PM.

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#2
Panzer

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Without going into details, I couldn't disagree more.
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#3
Interrogator Stobz

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Um, Try harder?


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#4
StrangerOrders

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Huh... Does anyone else see 'Primaris Chaplain on Bike' under Indomitus Set?

 

Wonder why its all labeled Indomitus Set too...

 

Kinda hope its real though.


Edited by StrangerOrders, 03 July 2020 - 04:56 AM.

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#5
Reinhard

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Yes I've been wondering about that... its quite peculiar to be listed under the indominus set too. Though we also have the invader ATV and the fire strike servo turret in that list, so it isn't limited to the Indominus box set only, if genuine

#6
Sloeberjong

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All I'm seeing is macro plasma cannon and plasma exterminator have blast. That's good news!



#7
brother_b

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By competitive you mean tournament, right? This game should be balanced for the everyday player, not the small minority of tournament players.

Realistically 3000 points may turn out to be the new 2000 points.

My opinion of course.
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#8
Vanger

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Smaller battlefields, less models. At last you will be able to finish a 2K battle in 2 hours.
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#9
Cryptix

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I really hope that smiley at the end means your entire post was sarcastic.
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#10
CCE1981

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Smaller battlefields, less models. At last you will be able to finish a 2K battle in 2 hours.


I use to play 2,500 pts vs a buddy of mine, our games would last an hour and a half. The biggest slowdown is knowing and understanding the rules. The core rules of 9th are written to be easily read and understood, that in and of itself will speed up gameplay.
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#11
Panzer

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Smaller battlefields, less models. At last you will be able to finish a 2K battle in 2 hours.

I use to play 2,500 pts vs a buddy of mine, our games would last an hour and a half. The biggest slowdown is knowing and understanding the rules. The core rules of 9th are written to be easily read and understood, that in and of itself will speed up gameplay.

I call :cuss unless you only play something like Knights or another super elite army. Or did you mean in the past in another edition? Because no way that's true this edition and with how big armies these days are.

Edited by Dam13n, 03 July 2020 - 09:30 AM.
Swear filter dodge.

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#12
Rhavien

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Smaller battlefields, less models. At last you will be able to finish a 2K battle in 2 hours.

I use to play 2,500 pts vs a buddy of mine, our games would last an hour and a half. The biggest slowdown is knowing and understanding the rules. The core rules of 9th are written to be easily read and understood, that in and of itself will speed up gameplay.

How on holy Terra did you do that? Knights vs. chaos Knights? No talk, just moving models and throwing dice? I also have a buddy that I play on a regular basis and we are very proficient with our main armies, but we can't stay under three hours playing 2000 points. And that is Blood Angels vs. Necrons.
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#13
BeatTheBeat

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Higher points costs and lower model count is exactly the way 40k should be going IMO. Too many years and editions of increasing power creep/decreasing points cost. A lower model count lowers the barrier of entry, allows quicker games, and allows a more flexible and fair points pricing at the lower end, which otherwise becomes very crowded – when you have guardsmen, grots, termagants, and god knows how many other units and equipment hovering around or below the 5pts mark, you get very constrained design- and balance wise.

And very subjectively, I like the look and feel of lower model count battles so much more. The closer we get to 2nd ed size battles/armies, the happier I'll be.


Edited by BeatTheBeat, 03 July 2020 - 07:32 AM.

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#14
Subtleknife

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Completely disagree. I liked the amount of models you got on the field with 8th. I am not liking the push for smaller armies with 9th.
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#15
Panzer

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Higher points costs and lower model count is exactly the way 40k should be going IMO. Too many years and editions of increasing power creep/decreasing points cost. A lower model count lowers the barrier of entry, allows quicker games, and allows a more flexible and fair points pricing at the lower end, which otherwise becomes very crowded – when you have guardsmen, grots, termagants, and god knows how many other units and equipment hovering around or below the 5pts mark, you get very constrained design- and balance wise.

And very subjectively, I like the look and feel of lower model count battles so much more. The closer we get to 2nd ed size battles/armies, the happier I'll be.

 

Exactly :tu:


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#16
Maschinenpriester

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I second that. I definitely enjoyed the 1000p and 500 p games I recently played so much, that I kind of stopped with the bigger games. They feel more tactical to me, and it is more fun to experiment with some more unusual lists in smaller games I think. There is also the advantage that they take less time.

Edited by Maschinenpriester, 03 July 2020 - 08:20 AM.


#17
zero88

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If this is true 45ppm for Aggressors is still too low 🙄

#18
Avicenna

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Completely disagree. I liked the amount of models you got on the field with 8th. I am not liking the push for smaller armies with 9th.

 

What appears to be interesting is that alongside the 'push' (I prefer to call it 'support') for smaller armies, they do appear to be working towards a game that scales much better so really this becomes a win-win. You can still play larger games - 3k may now be your 2.5k - but small games at 500pts are now legitimized too.

 

This is the first time since 3rd edition I am contemplating a small Ork force. I am such a slow painter that I normally would avoid hordes like the plague!


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#19
Drudge Dreadnought

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Some interesting changes here. I'm glad to see a split on cost for infantry vs vehicles. But I have no idea why Multimeltas got more expensive for vehicles, and are more expensive than lascannons.

 

Also note that terminators stayed at 23pts, while most models went up by several points. So that's a proportional buff (although storm bolters did go up by 1.)

 

Hellblasters and Eliminators got their weapon cost rolled into their model cost. Maybe other units too.

 

Special weapons got cheaper, which was needed. Flamers are back to 5th ed cost of 5pts!

 

I'll be interested to see if CSM change in price this much, or if part of these points changes are to reflect the strength of doctrines.


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#20
mughi3

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Smaller battlefields, less models. At last you will be able to finish a 2K battle in 2 hours.

Not likely, they have the game up to 7 phases per turn, rules for targeting characters, fallback, various terrain definitions etc... take entire paragraphs to explain. the scoring system is stupidly complex for a 40K game and it includes screwing over your opponent if every model in their army isn't painted and based. 

 

I mean yeah you will be in rapid fire range at the start with smaller tables made to sell kill team boards. from everything i have seen this edition is trash. it looks to be as bad as 6th if not worse. 

 

I can finish a 2k game of 5th ed in less than 2 hours. we did it a couple weeks ago, 7 full turns (with random game length) while another group with us did like 2 or 3 turns of 8th in the same amount of time. 


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#21
Subtleknife

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Completely disagree. I liked the amount of models you got on the field with 8th. I am not liking the push for smaller armies with 9th.


What appears to be interesting is that alongside the 'push' (I prefer to call it 'support') for smaller armies, they do appear to be working towards a game that scales much better so really this becomes a win-win. You can still play larger games - 3k may now be your 2.5k - but small games at 500pts are now legitimized too.

This is the first time since 3rd edition I am contemplating a small Ork force. I am such a slow painter that I normally would avoid hordes like the plague!

It doesn't work like that though. The majority of games I play are tournament etc. Not ultra competitive ones mind. I don't see pts gaining in size to accommodate for the new points increase. I am now probably forced to play smaller games.

#22
Kenzaburo

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Well, smaller games are good if you go by time spent. It's just hard to find people in their late 30s willing to spend 3+ hours for one game.  Aesthetically I like the current sizes - looks more like a proper engagement. To top it off: make the game size smaller and my Custodes might not have more than 10 models on the table, which is weird.


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#23
Panzer

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Some interesting changes here. I'm glad to see a split on cost for infantry vs vehicles. But I have no idea why Multimeltas got more expensive for vehicles, and are more expensive than lascannons.

 

Because vehicles can move&shoot with Heavy weapons without penalty probably. Why more expensive than Lascannons? Probably because of the special rule and no it never made much sense since the range advantage and S9 are worth much more. :sweat:

 

 

Smaller battlefields, less models. At last you will be able to finish a 2K battle in 2 hours.

Not likely, they have the game up to 7 phases per turn, rules for targeting characters, fallback, various terrain definitions etc... take entire paragraphs to explain. the scoring system is stupidly complex for a 40K game and it includes screwing over your opponent if every model in their army isn't painted and based. 

 

I mean yeah you will be in rapid fire range at the start with smaller tables made to sell kill team boards. from everything i have seen this edition is trash. it looks to be as bad as 6th if not worse. 

 

I can finish a 2k game of 5th ed in less than 2 hours. we did it a couple weeks ago, 7 full turns (with random game length) while another group with us did like 2 or 3 turns of 8th in the same amount of time. 

 

 

Taking entire graphs to explain and taking long to understand are two very different things. Neither really affects how long a game goes though. The scoring system is perfectly fine imo. Nothing stupidly complex about it. If you don't like the painting thing, talk about it with your opponent and if you both are decent people he'll most likely agree to just ignore it.

 

Smaller tables does NOT mean you deploy closer to eachother. You'll be in rapid fire range as quickly as before. It only means there's less space in your deployment zone. Calling this edition trash already is beyond ridiculous.


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#24
Gendo

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No Crusader squads? Also find it interesting that troops seem to be more expensive but not vehicles and such, they really want to push larger models I guess.



#25
Lord Marshal

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GW might be conscious of the fact numbers creep is a huge part of what ultimately killed Fantasy. Eventually you just straight up price out your new audience, if not on the cost of individual boxes, but the sheer number of them they're expected to buy in order to keep up when it comes to the average points game.

 

Long-term hiking the points cost up on almost everything is definitely healthy for the game. 


Edited by Lord Marshal, 03 July 2020 - 10:21 AM.

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