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W40K 9th edition points leaks - SM in full


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#26
CCE1981

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Smaller battlefields, less models. At last you will be able to finish a 2K battle in 2 hours.

I use to play 2,500 pts vs a buddy of mine, our games would last an hour and a half. The biggest slowdown is knowing and understanding the rules. The core rules of 9th are written to be easily read and understood, that in and of itself will speed up gameplay.
How on holy Terra did you do that? Knights vs. chaos Knights? No talk, just moving models and throwing dice? I also have a buddy that I play on a regular basis and we are very proficient with our main armies, but we can't stay under three hours playing 2000 points. And that is Blood Angels vs. Necrons.

Nope Marine + Grey Knights (me) vs Sisters + Inquistion (him)

Yes it was 5th edition, I had about 70-80 models on the table, he had a little over a hundred.

Now my list I played the most has about 43 in 2,000 pts.

We knew the rules well and didn’t have to look anything up. We actively told each other what was happening as we were doing it, such as: moving this unit so many inches; this unit is splitting fire, plasma in red firing here first while rolling boltguns weapons there in blue; this Librarian casting this needing blah; charging here; I need x to hit, toughness y vs strength z needing w to wound. That sort of thing, and thinking in your opponents turn how your going to counter what you’ve done.

I win against most of my opponents by telling them what I am doing and what rule it is as I am doing it. My turn unless I am asked a question, doesn’t take more than 10 minutes. My opponent thinks zero time has gone by and rushes his turn.

When a 2,000 pt game takes more than two hours it’s because of looking up rules. My buddy and I weren’t looking rules up rules for our factions or the game rules. The biggest time sink is always trying to find rules, THEN moving models, but when you get used to moving models that goes quick.

To remember the rules say and do at the same time even in this edition. An example:

Don’t leave your dice in a pile, leave them in groups or lines of 5 of the same color and size.

While picking up and counting dice, made easier cause you can quickly count in fives and a left over.

“This Tactical squad is firing it’s bolters into the cultist squad, using blue dice, and firing it’s plasmagun and combi-plasma, plasma only, overcharged at the Possessed squad using red dice.”

#27
Xenith

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Based on this, GWS are somehow still pursuing the idea that they want everyone to play smaller games as the norm for competitive. They tried to make us stick with 1750 pts from their tournaments, but most TOs ignored them and stuck to 2k points. Now, many of the top SMs lists from before have gone up by 300 pts on average.

 

Smaller games are more competitive. It's harder to build powerful, small armies. The larger point games are to cater for people who can't effectively write brutal 1k point lists. 


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#28
Doghouse

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Well if this is legit and up to date then atleast we can crack on with planning and making armies.


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#29
Gendo

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GW might be conscious of the fact numbers creep is a huge part of what ultimately killed Fantasy. Eventually you just straight up price out your new audience, if not on the cost of individual boxes, but the sheer number of them they're expected to buy in order to keep up when it comes to the average points game.

 

Long-term hiking the points cost up on almost everything is definitely healthy for the game. 

You make a good point, people like me who don't care about competitive and like larger armies can always agree an higher point cap before games. 


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#30
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What I find most amusing is they've had to step in and remind people that you can actually play at lower points values. People latch on to the ridiculous notion that "if you're not playing 2000pts, you're not playing 40k" far too easily.


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#31
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I like the current look of the upcoming edition, no badmouthing from me.

 

Also didn't see it mentioned, but if the regular 40K game moves towards less models, then it applaudes Apocalypse and its meaning as grand gamemode. Just saying.


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#32
Dark Shepherd

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We're probably not getting full points leaks esp wargear/melee til Saturday week, and thats if reviewers got sent Chapter Approved?

#33
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No Crusader squads? Also find it interesting that troops seem to be more expensive but not vehicles and such, they really want to push larger models I guess.

 

Because they aren't in the codex - they're in Psychic awakening.


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#34
antique_nova

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By competitive you mean tournament, right? This game should be balanced for the everyday player, not the small minority of tournament players.
Realistically 3000 points may turn out to be the new 2000 points.
My opinion of course.

One problem with that. What points level do you use to define "everyday player"? GWS has no data on that. No one has. The only reliable data anyone had is what level the most competitive players play at. So, that's what GWS should and have been tailoring for.

If Casual players still complain, then they either need to get good or accept that the theme they're going with needs to change or change armies. By theme I mean mission they revised or the type of army they're using to act out a certain battlefield. It's always one of those. Too many casual players complain about one army getting unfair advantages like SM, which is true. So, why don't they even up the odds and make the points changes themsevles? Give the Tyranids 25-50% more points to work with than the SM. That provides for a far more thematic theme etc. To me, in casual games, I'd never want to play with the same points as my opponent. That's what GTs for the most competitive scenes are for to ensure a fsir game. Casual players don't care about that as much, they care more about having a fun game by following a narrative, which I believe is called open play. Competitive games are not lore friendly, casual games are and if I was willing to give the hobby more time to play casual games. I'd love to do both and have my marines take on armies that are consistently several times larger than them in points, because that's their appeal. Facing off against insane odds!

Edited by antique_nova, 03 July 2020 - 02:09 PM.

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#35
antique_nova

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Based on this, GWS are somehow still pursuing the idea that they want everyone to play smaller games as the norm for competitive. They tried to make us stick with 1750 pts from their tournaments, but most TOs ignored them and stuck to 2k points. Now, many of the top SMs lists from before have gone up by 300 pts on average.

 
Smaller games are more competitive. It's harder to build powerful, small armies. The larger point games are to cater for people who can't effectively write brutal 1k point lists.

You couldn't be more wrong. Bigger games allow for far more variations than smaller ones. Planning for those takes far more preparation time, since you have more scenarios to prepare for ore game.

Smaller games provide a challenge for those who are used to bigger games, but that doesn't make it more competitive. Just challenging, until it becomes the norm for them.
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#36
antique_nova

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What I find most amusing is they've had to step in and remind people that you can actually play at lower points values. People latch on to the ridiculous notion that "if you're not playing 2000pts, you're not playing 40k" far too easily.


How have they had to remind people about smaller games? Are you talking casual or competitive? Because casual players couldn't really care less what the "norm" points level was. They decide the game. Not some competitive community for GTs or TOs.

Also, the ridiculous notion you quoted. I have never ever heard of that and like you, I think it's ridiculous for anyone to say that. 40k is and can be played at all sizes and still be 40k. Anything else is heretical. As for 2k, that's something that only really concerns the TOs who organise the competitive games at GTs and many of those players played at 2k for those GTs, because it felt right to them. It felt like the right size, so these points increases will not create smaller armies for them, because if they wanted smaller armies in the first place. They would have never played most GTs at 2k points rhen. During 8th edition.
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#37
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Not sure I understand the point of this thread...does it offer anything new that was not already leaked? I'm confused
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#38
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Interestingly, with these points, I'm able to drop some of my tax units in that second battalion, so the points spent on troops and HQs I needed to pay for have now gone into much killier things. I'm actually better off than before and while it's fewer units, it's only troops that aren't there anymore.

#39
Bryan Blaire

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Not sure I understand the point of this thread...does it offer anything new that was not already leaked? I'm confused

A soapbox for the OP?

Higher points costs per unit and higher points costs for wargear allows for more fine tuning of points balance in the manner that a 100 segment unit of measure allows more specificity of positioning than a 10 segment unit of measure will for the same overall length. All segments of the hobby community can agree to play with larger points values on the board if they want larger armies, and you can always play larger board sizes than the minimum - the segment of the game (Matched vs. Narrative vs. Open) doesn't affect this.
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#40
chapter master 454

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This is certainly interesting. I mean, the problem here however is that we do need to address that some people prefer different army styles. Some people like having 100+ models on the board and like having a mass of infantry run into the enemy.

To me, I personally prefer big heavy armour units blasting holes in those 100+ armies. Where I leave holes, it fills them in my heart for tanks!

 

Will other factions be priced accordingly and if so, it would be yet another bit of momentum on the pendulum against horde. However there is another factor that can be summed as this regarding their guidelines:

"I recognise the council has made a decision but since it is a stupid decision I have decided to ignore it"

 

Players could quite easily inflate game sizes to 2250 or 2500 points to emulate the sizes they are used to and like along with completely ignoring the new recommended sizes of tables being 5x4. To be honest, every edition seems to have had some form of points increase. 4th edition was 1500, 5th came along with apoc and pushed it to 1750 then I went away so not sure if 1850 walked in during 6th or 7th. Then 8th pushed points to 2000.

 

Again, ultimately the guidelines for army sizes and table sizes are to the community. GW can try and enforce it but ultimately, this game is driven by the community and they are the ones with the final say on it really.


I Chapter Master 454, Chapter Master of the Angels of Justice, Warboss of WAAAGH Gubskul, Commander of a Catachan Regiment, Phaeron of a Tomb World, Shas'O to a Cadre and Princeps of a lance of House Taranis hereby pledge that I will not take up any further models til all other prior have been fully built and painted to tabletop standards. There is no time limit for this task, there is no deadline. My oath is to solemnly complete the armies I have now, to see it that they can have their glory. Paint will be stripped from the old in need, thick may it be like ceramite I will see it removed so that plastic and metal alike may see light of new paint. Models yet to be, boxed and in darkness will be assembled with due care and attention. For this task I am permitted to still buy the supplies needed to do my task but not one model more.

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#41
Roland Durendal

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This is certainly interesting. I mean, the problem here however is that we do need to address that some people prefer different army styles. Some people like having 100+ models on the board and like having a mass of infantry run into the enemy.
To me, I personally prefer big heavy armour units blasting holes in those 100+ armies. Where I leave holes, it fills them in my heart for tanks!
 
Will other factions be priced accordingly and if so, it would be yet another bit of momentum on the pendulum against horde. However there is another factor that can be summed as this regarding their guidelines:
"I recognise the council has made a decision but since it is a stupid decision I have decided to ignore it"
 
Players could quite easily inflate game sizes to 2250 or 2500 points to emulate the sizes they are used to and like along with completely ignoring the new recommended sizes of tables being 5x4. To be honest, every edition seems to have had some form of points increase. 4th edition was 1500, 5th came along with apoc and pushed it to 1750 then I went away so not sure if 1850 walked in during 6th or 7th. Then 8th pushed points to 2000.
 
Again, ultimately the guidelines for army sizes and table sizes are to the community. GW can try and enforce it but ultimately, this game is driven by the community and they are the ones with the final say on it really.


5th edition points saw a wide variety actually. UK/European tournaments were predominantly 1750, whereas US went for 2000. Apocalypse existed but it was not competitive and was “for fun” only.

6th, and later 7th in particular, saw tournament games in the US drop to 1850 on account of the time added to the game for the psychic phase. The number of models on the table top didn’t change much between 5th and 7th (my Rhino Rush SW army of 5th had about the same number of total models as my 7th bike White Scars with attached Skyhammer Annihilation detachment).

#42
SkimaskMohawk

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Apocalypse actually came out in 4th.

Also the new small sizes aren't recommended, simply the minimum size.
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#43
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All I'm seeing is macro plasma cannon and plasma exterminator have blast. That's good news!

 

I'd say it's terrible news. Most things you fire plasma at won't activate blast anyway and it means you can't fire it in CC. Time to rip plasma off dreadnought arms, it seems cry.gif


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#44
chapter master 454

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All I'm seeing is macro plasma cannon and plasma exterminator have blast. That's good news!

 

I'd say it's terrible news. Most things you fire plasma at won't activate blast anyway and it means you can't fire it in CC. Time to rip plasma off dreadnought arms, it seems cry.gif

 

 

Oh you'll be fine. In fact I would say that one blast weapon that benefits from this comically is plasma, mainly plasma cannons which are D3 weapons so that means any elite squad of 6 or more will eat 3 shots. Yea, sucks for the bigger ones with D6 shots but personally most plasma options on tanks that weren't ether the leman russ imo were pretty trash. Though I will make a big point that people will need to remember that firing the gun twice from an ability is really good as it gives you two separate die rolls that both have the floor of 3 on it for such targets (thus meaning while being effectively 2D6, their floor of shots is 6 instead of 3).


I Chapter Master 454, Chapter Master of the Angels of Justice, Warboss of WAAAGH Gubskul, Commander of a Catachan Regiment, Phaeron of a Tomb World, Shas'O to a Cadre and Princeps of a lance of House Taranis hereby pledge that I will not take up any further models til all other prior have been fully built and painted to tabletop standards. There is no time limit for this task, there is no deadline. My oath is to solemnly complete the armies I have now, to see it that they can have their glory. Paint will be stripped from the old in need, thick may it be like ceramite I will see it removed so that plastic and metal alike may see light of new paint. Models yet to be, boxed and in darkness will be assembled with due care and attention. For this task I am permitted to still buy the supplies needed to do my task but not one model more.

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#45
Alcyon

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All I'm seeing is macro plasma cannon and plasma exterminator have blast. That's good news!

 

I'd say it's terrible news. Most things you fire plasma at won't activate blast anyway and it means you can't fire it in CC. Time to rip plasma off dreadnought arms, it seems cry.gif

 

 

I don't think it was even good to begin with. Even against MEQ on average the Onslaught Gatling does 2.667 unsaved wounds vs. the Macro Plasma's 1.944. It's only better against T5+ and then only when overcharged at the risk of mortal wounds. I have no idea why GW wants to make those weapons basically the same cost and then have them be either very similar or one worse. D6 shots is ridiculous and clearly something that makes more sense for a jammable gatling cannon to have than a plasma cannon. 


Not sure I understand the point of this thread...does it offer anything new that was not already leaked? I'm confused

 

@Nalim put a great post together in the Space Marine forum breaking down the % cost changes for Primaris from 8th to 9th; take a look over there for more discussion on game-relevant insights gleaned from these points totals.



#46
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Oh you'll be fine. In fact I would say that one blast weapon that benefits from this comically is plasma, mainly plasma cannons which are D3 weapons so that means any elite squad of 6 or more will eat 3 shots. Yea, sucks for the bigger ones with D6 shots but personally most plasma options on tanks that weren't ether the leman russ imo were pretty trash. Though I will make a big point that people will need to remember that firing the gun twice from an ability is really good as it gives you two separate die rolls that both have the floor of 3 on it for such targets (thus meaning while being effectively 2D6, their floor of shots is 6 instead of 3).

 

How often you saw any heavy elites taken in squads of 6 or more? Well, there was this occasional centurion or custode death star, but it looks dead now and was pretty rare anyway. I actually took plasma cannons on most of my dreadnoughts in late 8th because they were cheap, versatile and could put a dent in harder targets, but now, when all other dreadnought weapons cost the same and can be fired in melee, greatly increasing their worth, plasma is almost worthless. When assault cannon can now be used as handy anti-tarpit attachment, and lascannon adds two heavy punches, doing nothing is the killer.

 

Though, now that I think about it, dread missile launchers are blast too now. Even if you want to fire krak. Aww, time to go and find that dusty CCW bit...


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#47
Alcyon

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How often you saw any heavy elites taken in squads of 6 or more? Well, there was this occasional centurion or custode death star, but it looks dead now and was pretty rare anyway. I actually took plasma cannons on most of my dreadnoughts in late 8th because they were cheap, versatile and could put a dent in harder targets, but now, when all other dreadnought weapons cost the same and can be fired in melee, greatly increasing their worth, plasma is almost worthless. When assault cannon can now be used as handy anti-tarpit attachment, and lascannon adds two heavy punches, doing nothing is the killer.

 

Maybe these blast weapons should be able to get additional hits on multi-wound models too, to reflect their larger stature rather than number of models? Just a random idea. D6 shots for plasma is so awful on the dreadnoughts. I totally agree that having them be the same points cost is nuts. Just make plasma more expensive and improve its anemic stats.



#48
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So wait a bladeguard is 35ppm with wargear, but a terminator is 23ppm without? Stormbolter is 3pts and if Power fist is still 8pts then a terminator is 34ppm vs bladeguard 35ppm??
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#49
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I think PFs are 9 so they’d both be 35

#50
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Hiking the points backup means that GeeDub can play with them each following year when they release Chapter Approved. Smaller faster games is really a boon for tournaments since it requires less time overall. I’m really glad to see the missions fixed at five turns. For years ITC had the opportunity to lower the points for armies, decrease the number of turns, etc. but no the standard response was they didn’t want to with no real justification. Considering the problems they’ve had at LVO with people standing around for literally hours it doesn’t really make any sense. I’m glad to see GeeDub finally take the bull by the horns again.
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