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W40K 9th edition points leaks - SM in full


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#51
Fulkes

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Someone on Reddit did some comparison:

 

I got bored and put in all the leaked Space Marine point values into excel and calculated their cost change as a percent of their original value. For units with different load-out options like tanks, I included different load-out options and did the price comparison for those options instead of just the model so we could see how weapon point cost changes impacted the units overall costs. For Units where all models are the same (aggressors, hellblasters, etc.) I just calculated the difference for 1 model. For the devastator squad, the values are for the sum of four marines, the sergeant, and four of the listed heavy weapons to give the total cost of the squad.

 
...
 
All of these costs for HQ are just for the base models as we don't have the prices of melee weapons. For all other force organization sections, melee weapons prices are assumed to be the same as before.

 
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Edited by Fulkes, 04 July 2020 - 12:46 AM.

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 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#52
Raven1

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If things like Terminators stand true for like units across the board.  I think will start to them in great numbers, especially chaos cult terminators.

 

I already had a good feeling about the Vindicator and everything else just going up around it, i think it definitely might have some play given the smaller board and new blast rule.


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#53
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Nice to see the Inceptors get a discount (the plasma guys are 50 points now though, 2x guns). To bad Reivers still took a little hike. There's always 10th edition...


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#54
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I could have sworn Boltstorm Aggressors were more expensive than their flamestorm counterparts?


Hope is a moment now long past, the Shadow of Death is the one I cast

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Imperial Knights : 3 - 2

#55
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I could have sworn Boltstorm Aggressors were more expensive than their flamestorm counterparts?

Yes, looks like they added the fragstorm GL cost on the flamestorm aggressors too.


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#56
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just another example of why trusting leaks - no matter how well intended (?) - needs to be done with a touch of skepticism and common sense.


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#57
Fulkes

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I'm sincerely hoping these points costs we've seen are playtester points and the real points don't bundle wargear in with models. Mostly because that's not great for balance.


 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#58
mughi3

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Some interesting changes here. I'm glad to see a split on cost for infantry vs vehicles. But I have no idea why Multimeltas got more expensive for vehicles, and are more expensive than lascannons.

 

Because vehicles can move&shoot with Heavy weapons without penalty probably. Why more expensive than Lascannons? Probably because of the special rule and no it never made much sense since the range advantage and S9 are worth much more. sweat.gif

 

 

Smaller battlefields, less models. At last you will be able to finish a 2K battle in 2 hours.

Not likely, they have the game up to 7 phases per turn, rules for targeting characters, fallback, various terrain definitions etc... take entire paragraphs to explain. the scoring system is stupidly complex for a 40K game and it includes screwing over your opponent if every model in their army isn't painted and based. 

 

I mean yeah you will be in rapid fire range at the start with smaller tables made to sell kill team boards. from everything i have seen this edition is trash. it looks to be as bad as 6th if not worse. 

 

I can finish a 2k game of 5th ed in less than 2 hours. we did it a couple weeks ago, 7 full turns (with random game length) while another group with us did like 2 or 3 turns of 8th in the same amount of time. 

 

 

Taking entire graphs to explain and taking long to understand are two very different things. Neither really affects how long a game goes though. The scoring system is perfectly fine imo. Nothing stupidly complex about it. If you don't like the painting thing, talk about it with your opponent and if you both are decent people he'll most likely agree to just ignore it.

 

Smaller tables does NOT mean you deploy closer to eachother. You'll be in rapid fire range as quickly as before. It only means there's less space in your deployment zone. Calling this edition trash already is beyond ridiculous.

 

It is not and i will explain why. 

 

 

Some gamers ONLY play 40K or just GW games. So they have a natural desire to play whatever the newest edition is because thats where the community will gravitate towards in general terms. i have been gaming for over 30 years and 20 with GW.  i currently actively play 10 different miniature wargame systems. as such i can look at mechanics and even compare mechanics within a system and see good and bad.  GW has never been one for a nigh perfect rules set even when they went away from early thematic play to more army battle style play in 3rd ed(before that you almost needed a game master for games to keep everything straight, but then it was more about by fans for fans). 

 

When it applies to 9th they have taken many of the problems of 8th and compounded them.  8th like 7th before it. started out well enough and like 7th with formation spam, 8th became stratagem spam making it more like a CCG comparable to  magic than a TT war game.  what  i found 8th really good for especially before the strat spam was using it as the template for epic 40K at 6mm. it streamlined the game enough but also kept enough flavor for it to be enjoyable at that scale where you could trow down the equivalent to a 10K battle on a 4X4 or 4X6 and have a brutal but fun 2 hour game with all the biggest units in the universe without breaking the bank to do it. All it required was halving all movement and weapons ranges.  

 

I look at the rules and compare them to previous editions were there were only 3 phases per turn with  things like  psyker abilities, reserves  and consolidation intuitively included in those 3 phases. where the hardest thing was a comparison chart that told you rather you needed a 3, 4, or 5 to hit something in close combat, 

 

Where battles were fought to the last turn over objectives because even if you were down on the body count you could still pull off a win by holding  the most objectives on that final turn.   Where terrain actually mattered for strategic maneuvering and cover beyond just blocking LOS or not.  where characters could always be targeted unless they were smart enough to bring a retinue or join up with a squad, and where your entire squad doesn't gets shot a billion times with re-rolls because an enemy model can see the tip of your sword on an epic posed mini poking around a corner .   It had alot more to do with what you did with what you had on the table and less to do with what combo you could pull off. 

 

It is the reason i enjoy and still play 5th edition and horus heresy at my FLGS. they are a much more enjoyable experience. and when i find players who only know 8th, they find 5th a much easier game to learn and a more enjoyable game to play  when i teach it to them. 

 

After looking at the rules for 9th it looks like a hot mess so i have zero interest in it. my opinion of it is that it is trash,  so i will not be playing it, i will not stay on the GW rollercoaster of points and rules changes because they decide on pendulum swings in the game mechanics. nobody is forcing us to play the "new edition" that they always hype as "the best ever". 


Edited by mughi3, 04 July 2020 - 05:37 AM.

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#59
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Some interesting changes here. I'm glad to see a split on cost for infantry vs vehicles. But I have no idea why Multimeltas got more expensive for vehicles, and are more expensive than lascannons.

 

Because vehicles can move&shoot with Heavy weapons without penalty probably. Why more expensive than Lascannons? Probably because of the special rule and no it never made much sense since the range advantage and S9 are worth much more. sweat.gif

 

 

Smaller battlefields, less models. At last you will be able to finish a 2K battle in 2 hours.

Not likely, they have the game up to 7 phases per turn, rules for targeting characters, fallback, various terrain definitions etc... take entire paragraphs to explain. the scoring system is stupidly complex for a 40K game and it includes screwing over your opponent if every model in their army isn't painted and based. 

 

I mean yeah you will be in rapid fire range at the start with smaller tables made to sell kill team boards. from everything i have seen this edition is trash. it looks to be as bad as 6th if not worse. 

 

I can finish a 2k game of 5th ed in less than 2 hours. we did it a couple weeks ago, 7 full turns (with random game length) while another group with us did like 2 or 3 turns of 8th in the same amount of time. 

 

 

Taking entire graphs to explain and taking long to understand are two very different things. Neither really affects how long a game goes though. The scoring system is perfectly fine imo. Nothing stupidly complex about it. If you don't like the painting thing, talk about it with your opponent and if you both are decent people he'll most likely agree to just ignore it.

 

Smaller tables does NOT mean you deploy closer to eachother. You'll be in rapid fire range as quickly as before. It only means there's less space in your deployment zone. Calling this edition trash already is beyond ridiculous.

 

It is not and i will explain why. 

 

 

Some gamers ONLY play 40K or just GW games. So they have a natural desire to play whatever the newest edition is because thats where the community will gravitate towards in general terms. i have been gaming for over 30 years and 20 with GW.  i currently actively play 10 different miniature wargame systems. as such i can look at mechanics and even compare mechanics within a system and see good and bad.  GW has never been one for a nigh perfect rules set even when they went away from early thematic play to more army battle style play in 3rd ed(before that you almost needed a game master for games to keep everything straight, but then it was more about by fans for fans). 

 

When it applies to 9th they have taken many of the problems of 8th and compounded them.  8th like 7th before it. started out well enough and like 7th with formation spam, 8th became stratagem spam making it more like a CCG comparable to  magic than a TT war game.  what  i found 8th really good for especially before the strat spam was using it as the template for epic 40K at 6mm. it streamlined the game enough but also kept enough flavor for it to be enjoyable at that scale where you could trow down the equivalent to a 10K battle on a 4X4 or 4X6 and have a brutal but fun 2 hour game with all the biggest units in the universe without breaking the bank to do it. All it required was halving all movement and weapons ranges.  

 

I look at the rules and compare them to previous editions were there were only 3 phases per turn with  things like  psyker abilities, reserves  and consolidation intuitively included in those 3 phases. where the hardest thing was a comparison chart that told you rather you needed a 3, 4, or 5 to hit something in close combat, 

 

Where battles were fought to the last turn over objectives because even if you were down on the body count you could still pull off a win by holding  the most objectives on that final turn.   Where terrain actually mattered for strategic maneuvering and cover beyond just blocking LOS or not.  where characters could always be targeted unless they were smart enough to bring a retinue or join up with a squad, and where your entire squad doesn't gets shot a billion times with re-rolls because an enemy model can see the tip of your sword on an epic posed mini poking around a corner .   It had alot more to do with what you did with what you had on the table and less to do with what combo you could pull off. 

 

It is the reason i enjoy and still play 5th edition and horus heresy at my FLGS. they are a much more enjoyable experience. and when i find players who only know 8th, they find 5th a much easier game to learn and a more enjoyable game to play  when i teach it to them. 

 

After looking at the rules for 9th it looks like a hot mess so i have zero interest in it. my opinion of it is that it is trash,  so i will not be playing it, i will not stay on the GW rollercoaster of points and rules changes because they decide on pendulum swings in the game mechanics. nobody is forcing us to play the "new edition" that they always hype as "the best ever". 

 

 

I mean that was a lot of ranting and being salty but it didn't explain anything that might have required an explanation? Not really sure what your point is except for venting. This edition is not for you, I get it. You do you.


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#60
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Not salty, just pointing out the obvious. it is a convoluted rules set that is overly complicated for the type of game 40K is. they have done better in the past and sometimes they have done worse by removing things that worked, or in this case doubling down on things that made the game worse. this new rule set is geared directly at tournament players (and new sales, always new sales) when most of the player base are actually more casual players who play with friends or at a local shop and never play in a sanctioned event rather ITC or GW

 

 

I get a laugh on the marketing though--"look smaller/faster games, smaller tables, less stuff to buy......(now to just jack up those prices to compensate)"

 

The new drop turret is retail like $200, do you know how much stuff you can get in a different system for $200? that is sometimes full armies or multiple armies, or heck with dust you could get army boxes that are fully assembled and pro painted from the company for less. 


Edited by mughi3, 04 July 2020 - 07:19 AM.

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#61
Fulkes

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40k has always been a complicated game. I mean it started out needing a third person just to run the darn thing and armies were a lot smaller back then.

9th has some growing pains as they improve writing clear and well defined rules, but it's a direction the game needs to take to keep growing. The less time people spend arguing about the rules the better the experiance.

It's not perfect, but 9th really has taken a big step forward into making 40k more accessible to everyone.

Edited by Fulkes, 04 July 2020 - 08:07 AM.

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#62
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Not salty, just pointing out the obvious. it is a convoluted rules set that is overly complicated for the type of game 40K is. they have done better in the past and sometimes they have done worse by removing things that worked, or in this case doubling down on things that made the game worse. this new rule set is geared directly at tournament players (and new sales, always new sales) when most of the player base are actually more casual players who play with friends or at a local shop and never play in a sanctioned event rather ITC or GW.


I get a laugh on the marketing though--"look smaller/faster games, smaller tables, less stuff to buy......(now to just jack up those prices to compensate)"

The new drop turret is retail like $200, do you know how much stuff you can get in a different system for $200? that is sometimes full armies or multiple armies, or heck with dust you could get army boxes that are fully assembled and pro painted from the company for less.



Where on earth are you seeing that the drop turret will be $200? The whole flagship edition launch box doesn’t even break the $200 mark, it scoots through just under.

#63
Fulkes

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Maybe it's in Kiwi dollars?

 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#64
Kain Mor

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Maybe it's in Kiwi dollars?

That would make more sense. I had assumed USD when I saw $ without a tag but that’s my bad. Silly commonwealth and USA for all using dollars with the same symbol and different values...

#65
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That list is good but he forgot to include wargear for bikes and land raiders, scout bikes are in the good value column with lascannon devastators (and I suspect melee dreads)

Hellblasters and Inceptors get some points love 3 years after Dark Imperium box comes out
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#66
CaptainMarsh

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The new drop turret is retail like $200


Where on Earth are you seeing that, dude? Are you confusing that with the Indomitus Box Set?


Pieces of paper for impassable terrain? My main problem with all of this is it really takes away from the game. A giant sheet of white paper on the table sort of breaks the theme of tiny fake armies running around tiny fake locales.

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#67
mughi3

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40k has always been a complicated game. I mean it started out needing a third person just to run the darn thing and armies were a lot smaller back then.

9th has some growing pains as they improve writing clear and well defined rules, but it's a direction the game needs to take to keep growing. The less time people spend arguing about the rules the better the experiance.

It's not perfect, but 9th really has taken a big step forward into making 40k more accessible to everyone.Yes it was in rouge

Yes it was back in rouge trader and 2nd when it was a skirmish game more closely based on the old GW hero quest system.   by the time of 3rd it became one of the most easy and simple to play games that you could knock out in 30 mins to 2 hours depending on points levels. 

 

If you want complex you just have to look at the skirmish systems like infinity or battletech. Even within GWs own lines they have necromunda and kill teams as well. 

 

Marketing and market influence make the game more accessible because it is out there everywhere in your face. the rules writing and defining of rules appeared to be more in the line of developers not knowing their own core rules or codex writers operating in a vacuum from one another, putting down rules that directly conflict or rules that were not play tested(the obvious things like the IHs release that got immediately NERF FAQd) with power gamers in mind. that leads right down the road to the old argument of rules as written VS rules as intended. 

 

I disgree that this is the direction the game needs to take. 8th edition started an entirely different game. it is no longer 40k army battles, just like 3rd ed changed it from skirmish to army battles. the game play is so drastically different the feel of the entire game is different. the icons are there, the lore is there, but it isn't 40K anymore to me. 

 

 

 

Where on Earth are you seeing that, dude? Are you confusing that with the Indomitus Box Set?

 

I heard the cost in a podcast. it was in norway so maybe not $200 US  it was a long podcast, over 2 hours, so i would have to find it again. 


Edited by mughi3, 04 July 2020 - 11:26 AM.

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#68
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You're ignoring my point: 40k has always been complex. This is just the first edition they've tried to make the rules as clear as possible so everyone picking it up has to argue about RAW vs RAI.


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#69
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That list is good but he forgot to include wargear for bikes and land raiders, scout bikes are in the good value column with lascannon devastators (and I suspect melee dreads)

Hellblasters and Inceptors get some points love 3 years after Dark Imperium box comes out


That’s exciting, always loved Scout Bikes and I’ll be glad if there’s a sizeable discount for them over Outriders. With all their guns maybe they can help make up the gap in attacks. Sad that their cluster mines strat will require two strats now.


Edited by Alcyon, 05 July 2020 - 03:54 AM.

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#70
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Fulkes this is just one of those times someone dislikes the way the game has evolved and wants to vent. Nothing is going to change his point of view and asking for rationalization is just keeping the negativity rolling. Haters eventually die down as we move into the future, overwhelmed by the inevitable only rising back up from the background noise rumbling when the occasional new release comes out.


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#71
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Fulkes this is just one of those times someone dislikes the way the game has evolved and wants to vent. Nothing is going to change his point of view and asking for rationalization is just keeping the negativity rolling. Haters eventually die down as we move into the future, overwhelmed by the inevitable only rising back up from the background noise rumbling when the occasional new release comes out.

Fair enough. I was just thinking of 5th edition and the release of laser pointers for TLoS and not agreeing with the idea that this edition is the overly complex one.
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 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#72
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Fulkes this is just one of those times someone dislikes the way the game has evolved and wants to vent. Nothing is going to change his point of view and asking for rationalization is just keeping the negativity rolling. Haters eventually die down as we move into the future, overwhelmed by the inevitable only rising back up from the background noise rumbling when the occasional new release comes out.

I was called out for pointing out problems in game mechanics as well as the way GW writes rules, this is nothing new, but to claim everything is wonderful is also nothing new. people love 40K and want it to be good.  i wanted 6th to be good, but it wasn't, even GW figured that out and killed it after 14 months. 

 

40k  after 2nd edition, became the simple intuitive wargame i went to when i did not want something overly complex, it was still a "bucket o dice" game in those editions with some mitigating mechanics(with 8th it feels like we dropped the bucket and are bringing the entire truck load). 

 

 

A laser pointer for TLOS may seem complex to you, but by comparison to other systems it isn't.  for example when shooting in 40K how do i figure out what i need to hit-old system BS=#, new system=default #

 

compare that to classic battletech

 

base gunnery skill, say a veteran pilot is 4, then add in your movement modifier-did you stand still, walk, run, or jump? then add in the target movement modifier-how far/fast did they move?

then add in the range for each weapon you are firing, are they in optimal/short range or are you taking penalties for medium and long range shots?  add in weapon special properties-is it a cluster shot, is it a pulse laser etc... then add in cover. the result is you could need anything from a 4+ on 2d6 to hit all the way up to 13+ that auto misses for each weapon you roll for. 


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#73
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Leaks from playtesting doc had Primaris Lieutenant at 70 points up from 65

Pic from the 40k app preview has him at 65

Looks like weve got a mystery on our hands gang

Edited by Dark Shepherd, 09 July 2020 - 03:41 PM.

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#74
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Leaks from playtesting doc had Primaris Lieutenant at 70 points up from 65

Pic from the 40k app preview has him at 65

Looks like weve got a mystery on our hands gang

 

So do we spilt the group then? 1.2.3. not with Ishagu. Boy would never stop gushing about primaris ;p

 

Though that is odd. Wonder if that is them getting savvy about subtle details showing in images of previews since they have started to notice how eagle eyed their customers are. The Venomcrawler and the background necron boy.


I Chapter Master 454, Chapter Master of the Angels of Justice, Warboss of WAAAGH Gubskul, Commander of a Catachan Regiment, Phaeron of a Tomb World, Shas'O to a Cadre and Princeps of a lance of House Taranis hereby pledge that I will not take up any further models til all other prior have been fully built and painted to tabletop standards. There is no time limit for this task, there is no deadline. My oath is to solemnly complete the armies I have now, to see it that they can have their glory. Paint will be stripped from the old in need, thick may it be like ceramite I will see it removed so that plastic and metal alike may see light of new paint. Models yet to be, boxed and in darkness will be assembled with due care and attention. For this task I am permitted to still buy the supplies needed to do my task but not one model more.

http://www.bolterand...one-model-more/ the thread to my oath. My own reminder.

http://www.bolterand...rk-in-progress/ my own chapter
"The objective of playing a game is to win. The point of playing a game is to have fun. Never confuse the two"

 

 

 


#75
Dark Shepherd

Dark Shepherd

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The Alpha Legion wouldve gotten away with it if it wasnt you pesky kids

The points came from playtesting sheets so werent finalised

Or they could be fudging with us




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