9th Edition and you! What are you thinking about changing?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

This is going to sound petty, but the more I see people play TS in 9th, and the more I play 9th, it's starting to feel like very few playtesters (if any) really concentrated on Thousand Sons.

 

The Psychic phase has been turned down just from the baseline rules changes (Command Re-roll, Detachment Rules, can't cast after fall back, protecting characters, etc).

 

Conversely, armies with very good troops and a low requirement on support entities like HQ's, look really good. Astra, AdMech, Custodes, (so far) look good, and play well.

 

Armies hit by my personal qualifiers include: Grey Knights, Thousand Sons, Eldar, etc. (those top heavy armies which are especially hit if siding with a heavy psychic design element)

 

I don't think Chaos Space Marines are much better off because of their similarities in list design, however they do have some decent mid range shooty choices which I still think Thousand Sons are greatly reduced in. (The Psychic phase has historically been our shooting phase). Add on top of this we have lost our ability to Smite at WC5 with our mono faction.

 

So where are our apparent strengths for 9th? Bodies of decent infantry. Powerful Psykers (If left unchecked). But oddly we have to be careful about Close Combat if we look at our historically 'strong' builds. Let's remember not too long ago -every- half decent "Thousand Sons" army list seemed to revolve around Ahriman + 2 Psykers in a Supreme Command, and then put a functional army / faction in the other 1600 points you have left over. 

 

If the troops are where it's at for Thousand Sons, I almost think we have to adopt our HQ's to pure close combat. That sounds crazy, but retreating from Close Combat (falling back) is death for us.... I've tried it. 

 

Here's the conundrum: you want to stay in CC to start casting. However, by doing so you are almost certain to get peeled apart by Astartes, Custodes, Nids... fill in the close combat nightmare of your meta.  No one in their right mind would argue our infantry is close combat capable, except perhaps... Goats (ugh). 

 

Bear with me  here, but what I'm suggesting is we might be entering an edition where we have to be able to keep SoT, Rubrics, Goats in CC, and keep a real 'wrecking ball' HQ in there with them. Trust me, I've felt it first hand, we can't push back strong, or elite CC infantry without it. BUT if you're hitting back like a truck with Daemon Princes, and an Exalted Sorc with Seer's Bane, and/or loading up on Diabolic Strength more often.... Daemonic Talons, perhaps the Tzeentch sword that removes invluns? (Can we take that in Thousand Sons?... I know I did, but not sure if it was legal.)

 

Anyway, that's my overall assessment. Last edition my HQ's were more or less paper, but it didn't matter. I think this edition the whole army has to be engaged... not only to keep your HQ's untarget-able but also help push back with heavy counter attacks, because we aren't out shooting/ Pskyering anyone to death. The psychics have turned to utility and damage. It's a game of board control now.

 

(P.S. What I would do for psychically capable Dreadnoughts in this edition!)

Yeah, I'm thinking we are going to be relying a lot more on the likes of hellbrutes and contemptors just for the close combat punch and more damage two.

It's the fact we don't really have that much shooting that is more then damage one that is a main issue for us.

The risk with the beat stick HQ's is the defender choosing stuff first, we will have to be careful about that.

[BoomWolf]

Problem is, if you are trusting helbrutes and contemptors as your load carriers, why not use a legion that actually gives them a relevant legion tactic?

[DarkPhoenix]

Because sorcerers?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Problem is, if you are trusting helbrutes and contemptors as your load carriers, why not use a legion that actually gives them a relevant legion tactic?

Because not many of the legions give that great buffs to them? Because that leads to us pretty much writing off anything but rubrics, scarab occult and gosts with that philosophy?

I'm not saying combat sorcerers don't have a place, just that we do have other units that can do quite nicely (And I admit and contempor with weaver and glamour on it is pretty fun).

[Skerr]

I tend to agree Prot. In 8th I gave my Aspirings or anyone else, besides SOT, a flamer pistol for charges, worked great on MCU's holding objectives. Spells and pistol can be used in CC also. Throw in Force Staff and its not too bad if the enemies are not wreck face dedicated cc unit. Edited July 14, 2020 by Skerr

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I tended to plasma pistols, but that's more my love of plasma showing up.

[Archaeinox]

I'm very much considering dropping 2 predators and 5 scarabs to try and squeeze Magnus in. 

[Prot]

Well Arch, I always thought you were anti-Magnus (in background) but I wouldn't blame you for trying him now.

 

The thing is I haven't seen anyone do well with him in 9th yet, as early as it is. The table control is so huge now in 9th. I'm just not sure he can keep up unless you're leading a force of cheap stuff that would fade anyway.

 

Lots of Rubrics will have some merit, it's just hard to fit it in now with everything going up.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Well Arch, I always thought you were anti-Magnus (in background) but I wouldn't blame you for trying him now.

 

The thing is I haven't seen anyone do well with him in 9th yet, as early as it is. The table control is so huge now in 9th. I'm just not sure he can keep up unless you're leading a force of cheap stuff that would fade anyway.

 

Lots of Rubrics will have some merit, it's just hard to fit it in now with everything going up.

The question im wondering is how many squads of 10(or 9) would be required for ideal board control...3? 4? 5?

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

My army didn't change much. Lost 2 CP and my foot sorcerer. Did a slight reorganization with the 3 Termie Sorcerers in Cult of Duplicity with the same 3 units of Rubrics and the one Terminator squad, then did a patrol with 3x10 goats and my 1 Daemon Prince with the Crystal for Cult of Magic. Still no wings on the DP. Still going to be all about forcing a mid-table engagement so I can wreck face. Psychic Ritual and Investigate Sites will probably be my friends....."Sure, come over here and stop me. All these lovely Inferno Bolters are just dying to say 'hello'!"

[Raven1]

So I've had a thought well a couple actually one of which is bound to be FAQ'd

 

A) Currently Magnus can come in and Smite 3 (4 with The Great Sorcerer strat) times. While it suffers from the increasing cost. It's up to 4d6 Mortal Wounds

 

B) Use Sorcerous Facade (Da Jump) on a Defiler and than Daemonforge to re-roll all failed hits and wounds 9.1 inches

 

Both of these could devastating.

 

With the new focus on taking and holding objectives I think cult of Duplicity will be a strong contender.

 

Personally I'm think at 2000 points

A patrol of cult of Magic

A battalion of cult of Duplicity

A Supreme Command with Magnus

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I'm thinking whilst Ahriman is still easily our best HQ, and still an auto take in most games, I'm thinking in 1000 or lower not so much partially due to his cost and the cheapness of Exalted sorcerers, especially if you go cult of knowledge and so maximise on casting boosting warlord traits.

[WarriorFish]

Now line Marines are getting an extra Wound (i.e. not characters) what does this change for everyone? For those who like Rubrics not much directly I expect, but I think extra consideration needs to be given for All is Dust and how this pans out here.

 

Given the prevalence of Marines generally it may cause a greater focus on D2 weaponry, but that said since changes are clearly afoot perhaps All is Dust will see a change when the next Sons codex comes round? That doesn't change anything for now at least, so I'm interested in hearing more from more learned sorcerers

 

In particular 30" warp bolters feels nice (I'm presuming stormbolter equivalents too), and 12" flamers will help out Terminator platforms especially. For an army focused on shooting a bit extra reach and distance will go far.

[Skerr]

And the +1 to power swords is a dream come true. Yay, SOTs! might even test out the heavy flamer for fun.

 

Though it will be interesting, as we wait to see, if AiD gets retooled along with weapons and wounds. I imagine so, would not be surprised to see it revamped completely

Edited August 14, 2020 by Skerr

[Archaeinox]

Yeah the fact that GW said everyone gets their weapons in line with those in the SM codex is solid. October here we go, and that's awesome even before new Codex TS.

[Ulfast]

Biggest drawback is that so many armies now (specially space marines in all its forms) have weapon with D2 or better. I never get to use all is dust anymore. I pay for it but never get to use it. In my last three games i have used it like it one or twice together!

[Sorceress]

Perhaps they should just keep All is dust simple and make it reroll 1s on all saves.

[WarriorFish]

I am expecting/hoping for a change so it is more useable, a flat reroll to 1s on saves might not be the most exciting rules but at least it can't be negated. I'd hope for something a bit better though. The current version is decent but with D2 weapons only going to become more popular it is probably time for a change (Tzeentch likes this too, I hear). The wait for new codices is going to feel long..!

[Archaeinox]

Who knows it might be like 3rd ed and require str 5 or higher to break the +1 save. THAT would be huge.

[rorhammer]

some thing like tyranid's adaptive physiology 'enhanced resistance' wouldn't be too bad to represent all is dust.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Spells that i use.

Considering the changes to Smite and army composition, i am making my warlord exalted sorceror much more support spell caster and im considering the same for my rubric aspiring sorcerors, specifically looking at Temporal Manipulation.

I use a DP, 2 maulerfiends and a Predator. All viable targets for the D3 wound healing and at a cast of 6...maybe not a bad idea?

[Archaeinox]

I can't seem to avoid melee lately, especially with Astartes. It's even more frustrating to go up for a pick-up game and see that it's like walking into a chicken coop with some scraps to throw to the birds. They all perk up and want to play the Thousand Sons player because they're sick of fighting each other, I suspect.

 

Anyways, after more games this past week I have found more conclusions vs Marines:

 

1. Ahriman is less important.

 

2. Magnus is a bad choice at 2k unless the player is new or has a bad list and at that point why are you bringing Magnus to a teaching game? You won't (unless you're mean)

 

3. You will be in combat. Dark Matter Crystal won't save you, neither will Sorcerous Facade. When you need Facade, you'll fail the cast, or your unit will be weakened to the point where repositioning a small unit just won't have overall impact on the game. 

 

We are definitely in Index mode. I'm going to focus on the Dark Angels unless someone approaches me for narrative play. I'm not sure how I can change my lists except to buy defilers or something.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Archaeinox

[Mordas]

A few of my friends in my local group will be refusing to play marines when their new codex drops until their armies get the same treatment. Just looking at all the buffs they are getting from the leaks it's just going to be hell playing against them unless you have marines yourself. If GWS doesn't release the other codexes quickly I can see this being quite a problem.

 

I have my first game of 9th edition coming soon and I think its only fitting that my lockdown army (TS) get to come out and play first. So not sure what I will be changing yet but we shall see!

[Are Verlo]

A few of my friends in my local group will be refusing to play marines when their new codex drops until their armies get the same treatment. Just looking at all the buffs they are getting from the leaks it's just going to be hell playing against them unless you have marines yourself. If GWS doesn't release the other codexes quickly I can see this being quite a problem.

 

I have my first game of 9th edition coming soon and I think its only fitting that my lockdown army (TS) get to come out and play first. So not sure what I will be changing yet but we shall see!

Now people are assuming marines get a crazy buff.

We don’t know if marines even keep doctrines and folks talk like firstborn get +1W completely free.

 

Granted the sons dex is getting old, I just wanted to point out the «omg astartes are getting buffed» has to go.

 

The chapter tactics got leaked and they are mostly the same or worse (looking at salamanders) and we have no indication of how custom chapters will work or if they Are even there.

[Mordas]

I am just echoing the sentiment that is going around my local group. Every edition Marines get the first book and a boost for the poster boys, then everyone else slowly catches up. I am sure everyone else will get boosted up as well it's just how long do we have to wait? From what the playtesters like Table Top Tactics and others hint at I am sure we will be happy when our turn comes around.

 

Though this time the marines are coming off of a massive boost from their last codex, Sure the PA helped a little for everyone else but the tournament scene has remained topped by them. Beating them isn't impossible but it always seems like a massive uphill battle now.

 

So yeah the extra wound, buffs to bolter ranges, extra damage on heavy bolters and melta guns seems like a good buff/boost to me plus all the new units etc. They won't be unbeatable don't get me wrong. But if you were struggling before chances are you will keep struggling until the others get their new books.