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How do we look going into 9th?


INKS

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Very new to Grey Knights but I am pretty sure this is the next army I want to focus on.  However the focus right now seems to be on Necrons, with that being said and not the focus so much on Chaos and Demons the question is how do we fair? Is it perhaps a better idea to go with Deathwatch since they are more Anti-Xenos?

 

Or am I putting way too much thought into this and the lore implications I have built up in my head don't really matter at all? Appreciate the thoughts and imput.

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Honestly, not great. Based of what I read, some of the general changes in 9th directly screw with us, you'd have to ask the others about those. I believe there was a discussion about this in the Implications for the GK thread, last 4 pages. With the addition of the Eradicators, that presents a pretty big problem for our not-so-immortal paladins now. Paladins is what made the GK in 8th very strong, but now there seems to be an answer for them.

 

So just to answer your question - the better response that I said countless of times would be: The longer GK don't get primaris, the lower we sink. With 9th, and factoring in the new toys that the big 4 SM chapters have (outriders, eradicators etc etc) - mid-tier imo. 

 

Personally, I am in the process of collecting primaris units to add to the GK army (see Halls of Titan thread), for the day where GK will get primaris announced. Already got an primaris apothecary and a primaris tech marine ready to go, fully magnetised and painted in GK colours. Wouldn't suggest you do the same, but we will get them eventually. Until then I can just portrait them as <insert unit name here> with artificer armor. 

Edited by Skywrath
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There's no point in collecting primaris marines planning to use them in a GK army in the future. Those models  (except vehicles, perhaps) will never be in a GK codex.

 

Eradicators are not a problem, they are actually quite mediocre. They don't deal particularly good damage to us, and die very easily because of their short range.

 

Competitively, we are tier 1 in 8th, and we will probably get better in 9th. There's a lot of rules changes that greatly benefit us, and barely anything detrimental. The new units SM get seem quite irrelevant, specially compared with the substantial nerf they are getting on their top units. Unless we get big nerfs via point increases, we will remain extremely viable.

 

In any case, you are putting too much thought on trivial stuff. The important factors are whether you like the aesthetic, playstyle and lore of the army. Anything else is secondary and impossible to assess in the long term.

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the lore implications I have built up in my head don't really matter at all?

 

 

This. Unless you play narrative only, which is super-rare case and depends only on your local community anyway, not on the current releases. Besides, you always can forge the Narrative, why GK are fighting one or another army. I have only 1 chaos player in my community, for example, and he doesn't play often. Go for what you like the most.

 

Honestly, not great. Based of what I read, some of the general changes in 9th directly screw with us

 

 

IDK, what made you to think so. There are minor changes, that make life a bit harder, but other factions, which haven't been top dogs, are going to be hurt way more than us. Worst thing so far are 3 pts stormbolters. We could be ruined if GW mess the point costs, but I see no other critical problems. Maybe, our exception from Psychic Focus for Smites will be gone, but this is just the speculations. 

 

Otherwise, GK winning from the changes. No overwatch=great. I am not a big fan of close combat, but I am always going into it turn 4-6, so no more losing random strike models, because the opponent got lucky. Only one unit will be able to overwatch per phase, unless you play against Tau and you still can remove overwatch with the inquisitor, if you are concerned about particular unit. 

 

New character rules are not a problem either, I had all my characters, except librarian, near my paladin unit anyway. We will, certainly, have to pay more attention to them, but even if we lose a screen, our characters are strudy enough to have a chance to survive. 

 

New Eternal war favours us, because it is more or less about midfield control. No more fighting gunlines, sitting on their domestic objetives. I even have a feeling, that terminators could see some play as objective takers.

 

New Terrain rules allows us to get in 12"-24" range, where we shine, easier, while we have ignore LoS/cover spell and can get in on any unit. At the same time, Morale change doesn't screw us much, because we rarely fail it in the first place. 

 

Our CP number hasn't change much. I was starting with 12 CP anyway, but now I will get 2 CP per turn instead of 1 and, if psychic powers won't be FAQed as a source of CP refund/gain, than maybe even up to 3 with Xeno inquisitor. 

 

Also, smaller table sizes = easier to reach the enemy.

 

I don't quite like the secondaries for GK and taking 15 would be a struggle, but taking 9-12 would be super-easy for us. 

 

In short, I don't think, that we will overcome Eldar/SM, but we should still stay A-tier (not S-tier) army. 

 

With the addition of the Eradicators, that presents a pretty big problem for our not-so-immortal paladins now.

 

 

Eradicator are a nuisance, not a problem. Concentrated fire of Intercessors are way worse for paladins, than 6 shots of meltaguns. I doubt greatly that they will be used in competitive lists at all and even if they are, they won't be a key element.  

 

 but now there seems to be an answer for them.

 

 

There were and quite a lot of them. Overwise, we would be in every top-3 of any tournament since PA. Have you ever faced double-shooting Hiveguard with two Exocrenes? They are WAY worse than 6 meltas. 

 

The longer GK don't get primaris, the lower we sink

 

Primaris=/=strong. Some primaris units are very strong while others aren't seen too often. Even the worst Iron Hands lists before the nerf used enough "squat marines" units. We could fair well even without primaris, as we did after PA

Edited by Corvus Fortis
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I was merely pointing out that we could benefit as well from the primaris treatment. We are into the second if not third chamber of primaris units, and we still got nothing- as I said before, the more they delay with giving us what we should have got from 2017 (correct me if I am wrong), the more answers they have for us. I still stand-by on my claim that primaris > firstborn

as they have more wounds, more toughness, stronger weapons. My estimate of mid-tier, admittedly conservative, was with this statement in mind. 

 

Eradicators, while numerically I can't justify your point, on paper look like they are tailored towards killing things that have a lot of wounds, especially with their double-tap ability. Contrary to your opinion, I see them on the same level as Eliminators - except ones that actually stick on the board better. Sure the D6 wounds is random, but if we were to assume the damage average of 3, that's one paladin for a squad of 10 down with each shot. So if you are assuming that there is a squad of 3 eradicators, and 2/3 pass, that's 2 dead paladins off the bat. And don't get me started on the numerous ways SM's have ways to reroll, adding damage and wound rolls (chaplain litanies, captains, etc, etc). No, eradicators will be a a threat on the board for us, even though their range isn't that great. I will standby that statement.

 

As for primaris =/= strong. With each release they seem to be getting more stronger and stronger options. The outriders are one (as a Dark Angel player), and the bladeguard is another one. They have more toughness, more wounds, and stronger weapons as I said before, which again decrease our odds of winning against them on the battle-field. Sure the skill of the player is under consideration, but if we were to assume that said players were equal to each other, I see no reason why a SM chapter with primaris units and their unique chapter units shouldn't win against us. Also, seeing how we will still be using 1W Strike Squads to score points compared to 2W intercessors, that is another reason why primaris are better than us. We have psychic shenanigans, sure, but numerically the odds aren't in our favour, especially seeing how we don't know what point changes are. I wouldn't be surprised that our paladins get their costs increased.  

 

With the changes to 9th, as you pointed out there are a mixed bag of things that are good for us, and bad. Now, with all this in mind, that is what makes me think that after all the point changes, future implications and our current state our state will be that - mid-tier.

Edited by Skywrath
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 My estimate of mid-tier, admittedly conservative, was with this statement in mind. 

 

 

As I mentioned in my previous post, many non-primaris units made thier way into the tournaments lists, like, for expample, scouts, captains/librarians/chaplains on jump packs, thunderfire cannons, centurions, etc. 

 

No, eradicators will be a a threat on the board for us, even though their range isn't that great. I will standby that statement.

 

 

Not at all. The very least the paladins should have is Redoubtable Defence, Sanctuary and Armored Resilience. If I see enough S8 pointing at my paladins, I won't hesitate to use Transhuman Physiology too. I'm not even mentioning tide of shadows. There are lots of units, which could bring 4 meltas/lascannons. I have enough experience with paladins to say, that lots of weaker attacks, like chainreaper cannons, are way worse for paladins than 4 meltas. 

 

We have psychic shenanigans, sure, but numerically the odds aren't in our favour, especially seeing how we don't know what point changes are. 

 

I never stated, that we are better than vanilla marines. My point was that we don't necessary have primaris units to still be strong. And being weaker than several armies in game doesn't make GK mid-tier. I didn't have a single game since PA, which did feel like an uphill battle. I especially mentioned, that points can screw us, but overwise we are fine. 

 

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Eradicators, with rerolls, kill little more than a paladin per turn, and they get deleted by psybolt ammunition. Lascannon devastators are probably more competitive than eradicators. Eliminators were never particularly good against us. They are only good against characters, and ours are tough enough that the opponent can't realiably kill them anyway.

 

Why would you worry about outriders? They are worse than regular SM bikes, and those see zero competitive play. If the opponent decides to play them over good units, they are at a disadvantage, so our chances of winning will actually increase with the release of those new models.

 

After the SM doctrine nerf, we've been on par or above them when it comes to competitive play. Now that their best units got severely nerfed, we should do even better, provided we don't get hugely nerfed ourselves.

 

New secondary objectives are not particularly bad for us. Most armies won't be able to reliably get the 15 points each game, and that's by design. The "kill more" one is super good for us, probably the "psychic ritual" one too. We really didn't have super good secondaries with ITC anyway, so the new ones are pretty much equivalent. Furthermore, our opponents no longer have access to "gangbusters", which always gave full points, so that's pretty good. When it comes to every other new rule, about 90%+ of them are advantageous for us.

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How did the best SM units get nerfed? Not challenging that assertion, just curious on what I’ve maybe missed.

 

Their points got severely increased. Impulsors got a 28% increase, agressors 22%, centurions 35% (both types), invictors 26%, eliminators 30%, thunderfire 60%, whirlwind 56%. Although almost all units have had their cost increased, most of them are only about 10% more expensive. The increase for centurions, thunderfire cannons and whirlwinds is specially important since those are the most problematic units for us. Impulsors, while not that threatening, are quite anoying when spammed, and now the SM player will have to carefull consider if they are worth picking, since now they are, probably, too expensive to be used just as a distraction.

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