Why are there no Salamanders out there?

[Lord_Caerolion]

I remember their 3rd ed list well, it was the first thing that got me interested in Loyalist Marines. I do wish we'd get a bit more information about their role in the Trefoil in regards to 30k, give them something other than "they show up and get annihilated".

[SirVulkan]

There were salamander counts as players everywhere in 5th edition.  Sallies have always been a close range army.  In editions after 5th the game shifted more towards long range armies.  This edition forces you to go to the middle of the board so I think you may see a few more Salamander's players pop up here and there.  They probably wont be green though :)

[Captain Jer'ra]

Though my marines are a DIY Chapter I've used Salamanders rules since they were first released, whether strong or weak I made them work for me. Salamanders lore and playstyle has always appealed to me, and I've always been a more fluff-based list builder than power based.

 

The rules were a big help in recent editions, my luck with Melta weapons (against anything not needing 6's to hit) is as bad as my luck with flamer weapons is good. Two flamers in a squad was lots of fun. Wish we could do it now :(

 

Honestly, the biggest thing that has annoyed me rules-wise recently is Blood Angels getting heavy flamers in tacticals and us not. 

[sal of manders]

The rules were a big help in recent editions, my luck with Melta weapons (against anything not needing 6's to hit) is as bad as my luck with flamer weapons is good. Two flamers in a squad was lots of fun. Wish we could do it now

 

 

you actually can take two flamers in a squad by taking one regular flamer plus a combi-flamer on the sergeant. Also a 3-man bike squad can be packing 3 flamers (again one in the form of a combi-flamer on the sergeant).    

 

 

Honestly, the biggest thing that has annoyed me rules-wise recently is Blood Angels getting heavy flamers in tacticals and us not. 

 

 

Agreed, although that gets mitigated somewhat by our chapter doctrine AND flamers being assault weapons instead of heavy.  Adding the extra d6 to their threat range while ALSO getting +1 to wound on 12 auto-hits is not insignificant.  BA isn't getting those bonuses, so I'd call it a case of game balance over lore accuracy.  

 

 

Anyway, I came in towards the end of fourth ed, so while I'd seen the Armageddon codex and gotten interested in Salamanders that way; by the time I actually started an army there wasn't all that much to really distinguish them.  Plus I liked terminators and bikes at the time, and DA played more to those units.  It wasn't until Vulkan came out that I saw people at my FLG start fielding sallies, and that's really when I started to play myself.  Up to that point the marine players in my group were all either BA, templars, wolves, or homebrew.  So I'd say rules support and playstyle has a lot to do with it.

 

As far as overall exposure, I don't know about black library, but I always found the original dawn of war having a color preset for every first founding chapter EXCEPT salamanders to be oddly telling.  

Edited July 22, 2020 by sal of manders

[Bung]

@sal of manders

 

Salamanders lacking in Dawn of War was simply a decission to avoid confusion, so they wont be mistaken for Orks.

Thats been somethin i aksed at the Games Day when you could do a test match pre release.

 

Personly Salamanders were a strong choice for me, to do a 30k army, but for rules they cant field one of my favorite fluff units (Destroyers).

So i decided to done the yellow as i like Space Marines with shields and painting a yellow army was / is a challenge.

 

I thought playing them as a new army in the new edition, as there are alot of really nice conversion parts fro  Kromlech, etc. but with not much paint time i decided for something faster to paint with not so much converions potential to not go overboard as with my 30k Fists.

 

I still like their generall lore and the lore in the big Black Book for 30k, but i feel their could be done so much more with them.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'd seriously considered making my custom Chapter, the Sons of Sobek, as a Salamander successor, only decided against it because I didn't want to fuel the trope of "reptile themes = must be successor of reptile-themed Legion".

[CCE1981]

I'd seriously considered making my custom Chapter, the Sons of Sobek, as a Salamander successor, only decided against it because I didn't want to fuel the trope of "reptile themes = must be successor of reptile-themed Legion".

Try Guardians of the (something)

[Lord_Caerolion]

Bit too late there, they're most definitely Iron Hand successors now, and definitely called the Sons of Sobek.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/361866-sons-of-sobek-updated-10720/

[Bung]

@Lord_Caerolion

About the Salamanders Chapter Organisation. I found some bits in Imperial Armour 10 - Badab War Part 2.

There are 7 Line companies with 120 Battle Brothers stationed in the 7 cities while the Scout company doesnt count in that way and the first company is stationed at the Fortress Monastry at Nocturnes moon as Guardians etc.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yep, I get that, Bung.

 

What the issue was that originally, there were 7 Companies, and every city had recruits go to the 7th, and then progress through the Companies like normal, culminating in maybe reaching the 1st Company if they become Veterans. What Kyme changed was that each of the 7 Companies, including the Veterans and Scouts, recruited only from a specific city. So, the recruits from 2nd Companies city cannot go to the 7th Company, because the 7th Company only recruits from the 7th Company's city. The 1st Company, while being comprised only of Veterans promoted from the other Companies, now recruits only from their allocated city.

The only way you can have 7 Companies only comprised of recruits drawn from their corresponding city, while also having a Veteran Company comprising only of Veterans from the other Companies, and a Scout Company comprising of all new inductees, is to have 9 Companies in total.

That's the change that Kyme introduced, and GW then tied themselves in knots trying to make work. At one point, we had a Codex saying that the Salamanders had 7 Companies plus a Scout Company (initial 8th ed codex), but then had the organizational chart of the Chapter two pages later, showing only 7 Companies, with the 7th being the Scout Company.

 

This then got fixed in the Salamanders supplement to being only ceremonial ties between Companies and cities, not recruitment.

[Bung]

I think i need to Look at the novels again, its been a few years.

But such inconsistency happens if there are that much writters Like GW had over the years.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The problem in this case mainly seems to be that usually the Black Library authors and the studio are somewhat distanced from each other. However, Kyme is both a Black Library author, as well as a design studio member, and he seems to have taken on the duty of "Salamanders guy". If random author X writes something stupid, then the studio can ignore it, and vise versa. With the Salamanders, it was the same guy doing both.

[Bung]

Thats why you need a Guy responsible for all the Lore etc. as Alan Bligh die for the Heresy.

Or wrote a Lore compendium for the aothors.

[Captain Jer'ra]

 

The rules were a big help in recent editions, my luck with Melta weapons (against anything not needing 6's to hit) is as bad as my luck with flamer weapons is good. Two flamers in a squad was lots of fun. Wish we could do it now

 

 

you actually can take two flamers in a squad by taking one regular flamer plus a combi-flamer on the sergeant. Also a 3-man bike squad can be packing 3 flamers (again one in the form of a combi-flamer on the sergeant).    

 

 

I know, I meant back in 3rd and 4th my tac squads were 2 flamers and a combi-flamer lol. Also 2 flamers on assault squads and yes, bike squads as well.

 

Regarding the company set-up, lore has never been consistent from one mention to the next. I cannot honestly think of a single time it was mentioned that wasn't different from when it was mentioned before that by a different author. 

 

Funny thing is, I can count the times I ran Vulkan on one hand, but I always ran Pellas Mir'san once his rules came out from FW, since they fit so perfectly with a model of mine that had evolved over the editions from a marine sergeant to a captain. 

[Bung]

Well the lore of 7 cities and companies had been consistant since the old Index Astartes article back in third edition.

 

The lore in the FW books had always been good.

Thats why i will do a Minotaurs Primaris army for the new Edition.

[Galron]

I have an army of them. I field a bunch of armies though so it doesn't get a lot of love paint and tablewise. Planning on adding the new eradicators to it though. I actually have a long term plan for them that I occasionally work on involving three drop pods, a redeemer, terminators, eradicators, invictors and a bunch of tac marines and a couple small intercessor squads. Working on two other projects currently so for now they are back burner like 90% of  the rest  of my armies.

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I split the off topic chatter about the Minotaurs Chapter to a separate discussion in the Index Astartes forum.

[Firedrake Cordova]

Really? I never had any problems painting green whatsoever and I've painted many different shades of green over the years. 

GW's old Snot Green was a very transparent colour. :(  Painting over a black undercoat, I'd do 2 coats of Dark Angels Green, then at least 5 thin coats of Snot Green just to get a flat colour.  I'm pretty sure the older GW paints (the Coat D'Arms ones) covered better than the "bolter shell" pots (which also dried out).  These days, I'm using Formula P3 paint, which covers very well. :)

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Really? I never had any problems painting green whatsoever and I've painted many different shades of green over the years. 

GW's old Snot Green was a very transparent colour.   Painting over a black undercoat, I'd do 2 coats of Dark Angels Green, then at least 5 thin coats of Snot Green just to get a flat colour.  I'm pretty sure the older GW paints (the Coat D'Arms ones) covered better than the "bolter shell" pots (which also dried out).  These days, I'm using Formula P3 paint, which covers very well.

 

 

Some of those old paints had terrible coverage. I still remember a WD article about a guy's Word Bearers that took 17 coats to get a solid colour over a black undercoat.